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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:12 PM
otis24 otis24 is offline
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L frame .357 vs N frame .357? L frame .357 vs N frame .357?  
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Why did they develope an L frame .357 and an N frame .357? Aside from asthetics, which would you choose and why?
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:12 PM
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Why did they develope an L frame .357 and an N frame .357? Aside from asthetics, which would you choose and why?
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:24 PM
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The "L" frame came about to correct certian deficiencies of the "K" frame. The "K" .357 sometimes had problems when firing the 125 gr and lighter projectiles. Probelems included bad forcing cone errosion and spliting. This seemed to stem from a thin forcing cone wall at the 6:00 position. This thinner point was to accomadate the ejector rod. The "L" frame change that design. The "N" predates the "L" frame. Which is best? Neither! It all depends on the use or purpose of the gun. The "N" is a heaver frame bigger grips, a real boat anchor. "L's" and "K's" are simular in grip size but generally have full lugs and beefier in the barrel to frame area. The "K" frame or medium size will do about anything and seem to balance or handle better or least for some. They graced untold numbers of police officers holsters. "J" frames are small 5 shot concealable guns.

Otis, what are you trying to do? I think we need to establish your motive and intended use to even begin to answer the last part of your question.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:49 PM
otis24 otis24 is offline
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Just trying to establish the differences to the two. I now understand the correction of the K frame deficiencies with the L frame. I can see where a smaller frame (L frame) would be preferrable to some over the N frame and therefore the need for both.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:57 PM
Pistol Toter Pistol Toter is offline
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The "L" will handle the .357 mag all day long, but not the .44 mag., that takes an "N" frame. "N's" are made in .357 and .44 magies. The latest is the "X" frame which is the .500 magnum gun; too big for me. I vastly prefer the "K" frame.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:00 PM
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i thought the model 28 was gospel until i purchased a 681
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:18 PM
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The "L FRAME" is a nice gun to shoot. It is the best way to go for the 357. The "N FRAME" is the best for 44 and up. If you have a big hand, then the "N" will fit well. If everyone liked the same thing, we would still be driving a model "A". I like the "K and L FRAME" myself. Have Fun - John
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:16 AM
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I know I'm considered an oddball for this, here, but I greatly prefer N frame .357s to L frames. No revolver feels better in my fist than a 4 or 5 inch barrelled N frame .357.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:47 AM
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You can get speedloaders for the seven shot L frames, and use moonclips for the eight shot N frames.

S&W still makes the classic six shooters too.

All the Smith .357s are good, and each has its' own advantages.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:02 AM
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I like the L frame in .357 and the K frame over the N because of the shorter lock-time.

N frames are great, being an old PPC shooter where everything is shot double action, I shoot mostly double. The short lock-time really helps.
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Old 07-09-2008, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
The "N FRAME" is the best for 44 and up.
You mean .41 and up?

Todd
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vanilla Gorilla:
I know I'm considered an oddball for this, here, but I greatly prefer N frame .357s to L frames. No revolver feels better in my fist than a 4 or 5 inch barrelled N frame .357.
That'll be two of us, then. I fondled quite a few at the pusher's before settling on my 28-2. I have big freaking ham-hands, and the target grips on the N just feel nice.
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by zercool:
Quote:
Originally posted by Vanilla Gorilla:
I know I'm considered an oddball for this, here, but I greatly prefer N frame .357s to L frames. No revolver feels better in my fist than a 4 or 5 inch barrelled N frame .357.
That'll be two of us, then. I fondled quite a few at the pusher's before settling on my 28-2. I have big freaking ham-hands, and the target grips on the N just feel nice.
I'm with you guys. The N frame just feels right and I don't notice much difference in the weight between an N frame 357 and an L frame 357.
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:11 AM
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I chose the L frame because I like to shoot and rarely carry a revolver for ccw ,and when I do ccw a revolver it's a J frame.
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
No30
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Posted 09 July 2008 07:23 AM Hide Post
quote:
The "N FRAME" is the best for 44 and up.

You mean .41 and up?

Todd
Thanks Todd, I forgot the .41.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:14 AM
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I remember when the L-Frame was introduced. It would have been a commercial flop waiting on me to buy it as an improvement over the K-Frame or the N-Frame. I've handled 'em and shot 'em but just don't care for the full-lug barrel. I dislike the front-heavy feel. I might have tried one if they'd made them with a more conventional barrel.

I like the N-Frame .357 revolvers' heft and balance and feel it's the very best home for the .357 Magnum cartridge. There's nothing better for the hand loader, handgun hunter, or competitor who wants to shoot lots of full power loads. If one desires a .357 Magnum of more trim proportions then the K-Frame answers. It is a sensible choice for carrying. I don't think it's as fragile as it's been hyped up to be in more recent times.

The L-Frame .357 Magnum is neither fish nor foul and the J-Frame .357 Magnum is just plain silly in my view.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:39 AM
Pistol Toter Pistol Toter is offline
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I own one "L" frame. I bought it because it was one of the 1987-88 model 686's in midnight black. It doesn't have a single blemish or drag line and I figured that someday it might be an oddity. Like bmcgilvray, it doesn't hunt for me either as it's neither heavy or light and was /is a solution to a nearly non-existant problem. But to each his own; some like chocolate and some like vanila and so forth. I own one "J" frame a model 36 because, again it was in perfect condition, I couldn't resist and it's so darn cute. The only gun that when I brought it home my wife said OH how cute, I ike that one. My everyday carry is a Ruger SP101 which IMHO is a "K" frame size gun, the size that is everything you need in the ideal package.
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Old 07-09-2008, 02:10 PM
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I prefer the S&W L-frame improvements for .357 Magnum chamberings over their Ks. The Ks just look too lightly constructed to handle a steady diet of full house mag loads, and this was shown to be the case empirically. They especially seemed wanting when compared to the tougher, but roughly (some would agree that is an appropriate word when compared to S&Ws )comparable in size, Ruger Security-Six family. And, indeed, the Ks were meant to be carried more than shot with full loads, and use light loads for practice. I consider most 357 loads kind of light anyway compared to big bores.

However, I have a 6" 586 and now a 4" 681 and they seem to be a good compromise for a full capability mid-sized revolver, especially if you intend to carry it afield.

But, if it was only for range or hunting use I would choose an N-frame .357. They are almost overbuilt for the task now, perhaps not so when first introduced in the mid-30s, and will hold up well with the heaviest of loads. Plus, I like the balance point a bit better than the underlugged Ls. An older Model 27 is a testament to the revolversmith's art.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:43 PM
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There was never any shortcomings to the K frame .357s, they were, and still are, the best gun made for their intended purpose. The L frames came along about the same time Ruger was advertising their Security Six as being better for a number of reasons that were noting but advertising hype. But people were buying the hype and the Rugers and it was cutting into S&Ws market. The L frame addressed every issue Ruger was bragging about, but was pretty much like "New Coke" in that it wasn't an improvement over anything. It weighs almost as much as an N frame and is too barrel heavy for my liking. I think the barrel was made heavy to satisfy the bullseye shooting crowd which was a large part of the market at the time too.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:45 PM
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I own one S&W "L" frame, a 696.

If I was going to own one S&W in 357 then I guess I'd get a "L" frame. It's a compromise in my opinion.

I caried 19s and 66s as a LEO for 20+ years and never considered myself under gunned. Yes, they were designed to be carried all day, every day and give you the ability to fire 357s. That was considered an improvement over the various 10s and 15s with 38s.

Many of my 19s have thousands of rounds through them with no problems. The problems with the "K" framed S&W came when SuperVel brought out the HOT loads with light 115 grain and 125 grain bullets. Some people insisted in shooting them though "K" frames on a regular basis. Some guns had problems. Those of us that stuck to 158 grain bullets, even hot loaded, never had a problem.

The underlug was more of a marketing ploy than anything else and was to compete against the Colt Python. The Python was on the old 41 frame and was just sligftly bigger than the "K" framed Smiths. A lot of SMOLTS, 19s with Pythion barrelss were being built and carried by LEOs in the 70s and early 80s. Heck, I still have mine.

So with complaints about the durability of the "K" framed S&W 357s in question, S&W came out with a 357 on a frame almost identical in size to the Python with a full lugged barrel, like the Python.

As I already owned various 19s and 66s I saw no need for an "L" frame. As a duty weapon or every day carry weapon I like the "K" is a better choice.

If I want to pound a 357 with the hottest loads I can run through it, I choose one of my 27s.
If I choose to hunt with a 357, it's with a "N" framed S&W.

RWT
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:16 PM
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I carry a model 66 everyday. I love the balance and the weight of the K frame. I carry Federal 125 grain .357 magnum in it. But I only practice with .38 special. I give it a very thorough cleaning after I finish practicing with it. This helps to prevent damage if I have to shoot my carry rounds. I very rarely shoot my carry loads through it.If I was to shoot a lot of hot loads I would be looking for an L or N frame.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:49 PM
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I have one Model 19 4" and have owned a couple of 19 6" guns which I no longer have. The K frame 4" to me is a great lightweight carry gun but a little light with strong .357 loads. I have a 65 K frame with the 3" bull barrel and it is a sweet and smooth shooter with a Pachmeyer RB grip. Got a K frame Model 66 3" but have never fired it but it probably isn't as smooth shooting as the 65 heavy barrel.

I have several L frames, 4" and 6" both and to me they just shoot .357 magnum loads much better with the extra weight.

Don't own an N in .357, just .44 mag.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jellybean:
There was never any shortcomings to the K frame .357s, they were, and still are, the best gun made for their intended purpose. The L frames came along about the same time Ruger was advertising their Security Six as being better for a number of reasons that were noting but advertising hype. But people were buying the hype and the Rugers and it was cutting into S&Ws market. The L frame addressed every issue Ruger was bragging about, but was pretty much like "New Coke" in that it wasn't an improvement over anything. It weighs almost as much as an N frame and is too barrel heavy for my liking. I think the barrel was made heavy to satisfy the bullseye shooting crowd which was a large part of the market at the time too.
+ 1
Hear Hear ! Ditto
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 29Wheelgunner:
I like the L frame in .357 and the K frame over the N because of the shorter lock-time.
This is the first time I have ever heard that argument. Is there really that much difference between the two hammer throws?

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Old 07-11-2008, 12:30 PM
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Please excuse my ignorance,but what is meant by "Lock Time"??
Regards, Pete
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sporting12:
Please excuse my ignorance,but what is meant by "Lock Time"??
Regards, Pete
Sir, lock time is how long it takes from when the sear releases to the gun firing. The shorter the lock time, the better for accuracy--consider a modern bolt-action rifle compared to a flintlock musket.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bmcgilvray:
The L-Frame .357 Magnum is neither fish nor foul and the J-Frame .357 Magnum is just plain silly in my view.
+1
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:22 PM
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Thanks Ron H!----Pete
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:24 AM
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The L frame has a lower bore axis and a longer cylinder than an N frame .357, so felt recoil is less than it might be with the L frame.

The longer cylinder of the L frame allows longer OAL and therefore heavier bullets - sort of counter intuative, but there it is. I can load 170g cast Keiths and crimp them in the crimping groove with the L frame and there's room to spare, on my 627-0, the same bullet sticks out of the cylinder a tad, but they will work. Move up to a heavier bullet and I suppose I'd have to set it back a mite to work right in the N frame.

If I could have only one, I typically prefer N frames, but everybody has to own at least one L frame, I think it's a law. Kind of like owning at least one 1911.
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:48 AM
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All of the technical issues have already been addressed, so I have nothing to add there. Beyond that, the preference between L vs. N for a .357 is a very subjective one. I love this discussion and find it interesting - we've had it before and if often re-occurs. I find the .357 to be the most widely versatile cartridge extant, and having a number of guns in it makes sense. I currently own:

3 K frame .357s (2 2.5" and a 4")
2 L frame .357s (a 2.5" and a 4")
1 N frame .357 (a 3.5", also had a 4" until recently)

One of my favorite games is to shoot different guns head to head with identical loads, .38 up to heavy .357.

The full lug and more compact design of the L give it a decided recoil advantage over either a K or an N. My 4" L with smooth targets weighs identical (41 ozs) to the 4" N frame with Magnas. The lug, and more compact frame make the L decidedly handier with heavy loads, but it is not a massive margin. Both make controlling magnums MUCH easier than the K frame. People criticize the lug for making the L harder to point, but I don't shoot skeet with mine. I have a Shotgun for that. I try to put multiple rounds into a single target to practice neutralizing a threat, and that is where the 686 excels in handling. The action on my 1st generation 686 (the 4") is also among the finest and smoothest I've ever encountered.

In the woods, I will carry the 3.5" N or the 4" L based on my mood or a whim - I love them both quite a lot. But I do agree with those above who say the N feels good in the hand, with a Tyler and Magnas, it feels great. I put plain targets on the L to get a good feel, but it's less pleasant feeling than the N (though the recoil control and distribution is better).

For CC, I will use one of the 2.5" K's, however. The compactness, decent controllability, and power make it a truly superb CC gun.
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistol Toter View Post
Thanks Todd, I forgot the .41.
Don't feel too bad about forgetting the .41, it seems dealers near me have forgotten the .41 as well making it difficult to even get ammo, let alone firearms. I like the .41 cartridge, but the lack of .41's and accessories make it one I regretfully pass anymore. For the N frame, it's the .44 that is now the choice of caliber.
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by powerkicker View Post
I chose the L frame because I like to shoot and rarely carry a revolver for ccw ,and when I do ccw a revolver it's a J frame.
+1 on the J frame for CCW! I pretty much carry my 640 w/ .357 mag. exclusively since acquiring it. You can can't beat it size, great weight and balance for handling the versatility from .38, .38+P to a full .357 mag round. Arguably one the most versatile and potent small handguns one can carry!

But for a range outing shooting only .357 mag., I would have one of my 686's on hand for the task of going through the several or more boxes of .357.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:04 AM
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All the technical points have been made........on K,L,N frames

bottom line in selecting a .357; IMHO is "intended use" and what fits your hand best.

For concealed carry ..... for me .....a 3" K frame 66 w/ Spegel boot grips

Open/ woods carry..... for me........ a 4" 686, 586 or 681w/ Spegel extended boot grips

Hunting...... for me..... a 6" 686 ( taken 2 Pennsylvania deer with one)

That said......................

I do own a 6.5" Registered Magnum..... for looking at ; and a

4" N Frame Model 28 ....... just cus everyone should have at least one!!!!

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Old 07-12-2014, 11:04 AM
ironhead7544 ironhead7544 is offline
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The only real difference between the L and N frame is the grip size. Some people prefer the K frame sized grip but either one is fine for me. I see no difference in recoil in 357 Magnum.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:18 AM
kaaskop49 kaaskop49 is offline
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Originally Posted by RevolverDen View Post
+1 on the J frame for CCW! I pretty much carry my 640 w/ .357 mag. exclusively since acquiring it. You can can't beat it size, great weight and balance for handling the versatility from .38, .38+P to a full .357 mag round. Arguably one the most versatile and potent small handguns one can carry!

But for a range outing shooting only .357 mag., I would have one of my 686's on hand for the task of going through the several or more boxes of .357.
As I wrote on a recent post, I dig how RevolverDen thinks. Myself, I love the frosted "pinkish" finish of the Model 60 Ladysmith in .357. Carries just as easily in an IWB as the .38 versions.

Den: Maybe I already suggested this: have you tried the medium CCI Blazer .357 158gr. JHP? This would allow you to fire the "several or more boxes of .357" (dont'cha just love this?) in the 640. Stay safe, partner.

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  #36  
Old 07-12-2014, 11:24 AM
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eveled eveled is offline
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Originally Posted by Poohgyrr View Post
You can get speedloaders for the seven shot L frames, and use moonclips for the eight shot N frames.

S&W still makes the classic six shooters too.

All the Smith .357s are good, and each has its' own advantages.
Five star makes eight shot speed loaders for the N frames.

I have j frames and eight shot N frames. I haven't found a need for anything in between. Although I appreciate them for their historical value, I personally don't need a 6 shot .357 n frame. Ed
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:43 AM
at_liberty at_liberty is offline
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Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
I remember when the L-Frame was introduced. It would have been a commercial flop waiting on me to buy it as an improvement over the K-Frame or the N-Frame. I've handled 'em and shot 'em but just don't care for the full-lug barrel. I dislike the front-heavy feel. I might have tried one if they'd made them with a more conventional barrel.

I like the N-Frame .357 revolvers' heft and balance and feel it's the very best home for the .357 Magnum cartridge. There's nothing better for the hand loader, handgun hunter, or competitor who wants to shoot lots of full power loads. If one desires a .357 Magnum of more trim proportions then the K-Frame answers. It is a sensible choice for carrying. I don't think it's as fragile as it's been hyped up to be in more recent times.

The L-Frame .357 Magnum is neither fish nor foul and the J-Frame .357 Magnum is just plain silly in my view.
This is the problem with age and a historical perspective. Smith hasn't offered a K frame .357 for some time until just this year (see Model 66). It answers the issue of eschewing the full under lug and minimizes the mass in a stainless, 4", 357 well suited for holster carry. Still, one could expect that these guns will see mostly .38 Special ammo.

New for 2014

If guns with trigger locks are effectively invisible, then the discussion is limited to what one already owns from earlier years (century) or is lucky enough to locate.

Last edited by at_liberty; 07-12-2014 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:50 AM
at_liberty at_liberty is offline
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Wasn't the 357 originally an N frame? That platform would have supported the recoil well, but who likes carrying an N frame with any barrel length to it? In the smaller frames, you pick your poison, so to speak. I believe we expect nasty recoil from this caliber only because we aren't shooting it in an N frame. We adapt and get used to anything, but I doubt there are many who shoot a lot of rounds in a single outing with the smaller framed guns and short barrels.
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead7544 View Post
The only real difference between the L and N frame is the grip size. Some people prefer the K frame sized grip but either one is fine for me. I see no difference in recoil in 357 Magnum.

And typically about 3 ounces of weight vigor equal barrel lengths. I recently put cash down on a 627 2.625" performance center, but today I backed out of it because I feel my 686 2.5" performance is more suited for my needs and feels better overall in my hand.


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Old 07-12-2014, 01:57 PM
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Actually I'm a guy who likes both the L frame and N frame in 357 Magnum but as I thinned my herd the one I kept was a Model 28-2 with 4 inch barrel.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:36 PM
imitation_crab imitation_crab is offline
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I wonder if a seven shot .44mag X-frame is possible? I'd surely buy one if they ever made one. 5" barrel would make it perfect. dear s&w, plz make this happen
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  #42  
Old 07-13-2014, 07:30 AM
at_liberty at_liberty is offline
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Originally Posted by imitation_crab View Post
I wonder if a seven shot .44mag X-frame is possible? I'd surely buy one if they ever made one. 5" barrel would make it perfect. dear s&w, plz make this happen
The topic is 357, but your hand cannon idea is interesting to contemplate.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:49 AM
jack the toad jack the toad is offline
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If limited to only one, it would be N.
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  #44  
Old 07-13-2014, 10:46 AM
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As a serious 44spl fan, I was really happy to get a new L frame model 69. The pleasant surprise was the perceived reduction in recoil shooting 44mags compared to my N frame 629. I understand it is because the weight of the two guns are relatively close but the center of where the gun pushes back on the hand is lower with the L frame. For me, the recoil in a model 686 from 357s is similar in feel compared to the N frame model 28.
I am a big fan of the L frame for casual shooting and carry.

That said, for heavy bullets/loads and serious carry, I use 3" N frames in 44mag and 45 Colt. Better suited for the purpose.

Nothing beats a J frame for CC. Fits in any pocket in a flash.
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Old 07-14-2014, 12:45 PM
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K & L frame fit my hands perfectly
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  #46  
Old 07-14-2014, 02:43 PM
Elliot45 Elliot45 is offline
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Default L or N frame

I first purchased a 686 Plus Pro Series 7 shot .357 magnum which is an L frame gun. I liked this gun but because I have large hands, I thought I would get a Model 27 with the square butt grips. So I bought a 4" nickel 27-3. I know, it doesn't have the collectability of a 27-2 but I like the ramp with the red insert for the front sight and white outlined rear sight and I didn't pay an arm and leg for it. I thought I would sell the L frame but after shooting both side by side this weekend, I decided I can't part with either of them. Both handled recoil about the same and both were accurate. The trigger on the 686 7 shot is better in double action than the 27 but that's because is from the Pro Series and has some of the Performance shop work done on it. If I had to carry one, it would be the 686 because it less bulky with the slab barrel and just as accurate. But I really like the craftmanship in the 27 and wouldn't get rid of it either. You can't go wrong with either one. Hope some of this helps. Regards, Jim

Last edited by Elliot45; 07-14-2014 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:34 PM
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L-frame M-686's are made in stainless, a major advantage.

Secondly, the lighter cylinder goes out of time less easily. The hand has less weight to shove around.

I had a M-686, but it was too nose heavy, so I got a Ruger GP-100, which feels less barrel heavy, despite also having a full lugged bbl.

My M-66 is an ideal all-round revolver for someone who won't fire enormous amounts of .357 ammo, and is handier than heavier .357's.

I have never seen one of the limited production M-686 Mountain Guns. Those have S&W's normal half lug barrel and may be a delight to carry and shoot. They look at a glance like a Model 66 with four-inch barrel. You have to look close to realize that you're seeing the larger L-frame.
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  #48  
Old 07-15-2014, 04:47 PM
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I Wanted a 357 and bought the first S&W I could find a model 19 for $150 ( you can read about it in my post " would you do this to a gun) It was nice and once I " got over " my 357 craze I took my time to research other revolvers it came down to taurus but I wanted a gp100 for a few bucks more. Once I rented the GP100 I was not too impress so I settled between a 27 and 586. I shot both and the 586 felt balance and well proportioned, as opposed to the 27 feeling light in the barrel and heavy in the cylinder.

long story short I chose the 586 and could not be happier.

btw the N frame in 44 mag feels much better than the 357.
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  #49  
Old 07-15-2014, 05:51 PM
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Interesting that this thread was resurrected some 7 years later.....and it contains at least 2 posts from a couple of now-banned writers (how did that happen?).

Anyway, I have both. Like to shoot both, but wouldn't carry either everyday. If I did, it would probably be a 681.
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Old 07-15-2014, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post

The L-Frame .357 Magnum is neither fish nor foul and the J-Frame .357 Magnum is just plain silly in my view.
I like the j frame in .357 mag because I load low end .357s for defense purposes. Hotter than a .38 +P but hopefully won't blow our ears out if fired indoors.
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357 magnum, 586, 681, 686, 696, bullseye, cartridge, centennial, coke bottle grips, colt, commercial, ejector, k frame, k-frame, l frame, model 27, model 28, model 66, model 686, n-frame, projectiles, ruger

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