These are pictures of my 617 purchased a few months ago. It has 1200 rounds through it exclusively Federal.
I was just cleaning it after shooting and noticed these "gouges" around the forcing cone. YIKES!!!! Anyone seen anything like this? There are 2 areas, a straight "trough" above the forcing cone on the top strap and then the gouges around where the cone meets the frame.
Could shooting it possibly be doing this or are these residual marks from manufacturing the gun? I plan on contacting S&W customer service but wanted opinions from here as well.
Looks to me like it needs to go back to S&W. My 642 is over 5 years old and doesn't have any of those marks. Give them a call and see if you can E-mail them the photos.
Maxx,
I may be missing something in your description, sorry? Are you saying that this is "newly occurring" since your last outing, or that it's been there all along and has just gone unnoticed? I'd have thought that would have been noticed after it's first cleaning?
Maxx,
I may be missing something in your description, sorry? Are you saying that this is "newly occurring" since your last outing, or that it's been there all along and has just gone unnoticed? I'd have thought that would have been noticed after it's first cleaning?
I noticed the gouge on the strapline the last few cleanings. I just noticed the gouging around the cone today.
I own a 617 no dash, build 1991 I believe, which has I guess about 7 to 10k round through it, and the underside of the top strap is not really flat either, a bit like yours. Same goes for the frame around the barrel end, although not so bad as yours. The barrel end is very flat however. I can not really judge by seeing the pictures if that part is ok with yours, but I suppose that needs to be very even to have a tight/regular barrel/cylinder gap. I keep my guns very clean, and clean this part with a tiny bit of simichrome after shooting, and same with cylinder front. I do not apply pressure at all, just wipe clean with a very soft cloth. Both barrel end and cylinder face are now nicely polished, and seem to hold dirt (carbon/lead) less than in the beginning. The affected areas do not seem to get worse at all. There is no lead spitting and precision is as expected from a 6" 617, which means great. I do not know if this is likely with all 617's / .22 stainless S&W however. FYI I shoot mostly CCI SV.
Did you buy yours new ? I do not think soft lead and average .22 heat could cause this after 1200 rounds only. I would query S&W like advised by Lee, but if no lead spitting and good precision, I guess it's up to you and S&W.
I'm getting 1 1'2" to 2" groups at 12 yards and 4" groups at 25 yards.
I just got off the phone with S&W and they said that what I described is exactly what to expect from a 617. They said if I was experiencing any blowback it was a problem but my markings were to be expected with 22LR guns. My 686 doesn't have this and they said because of the more powerful rounds you wouldn't see this.
It may have had to fill up with Lead in order to become easily visible? That, or now because your casting a more critical look at it due to concerns, your noticing more about it? A bit like fine imperfections getting "inlaid" with Lead over time. What Belgian686 said I agree with completely. Has it exhibited any accuracy issues? Lead being shaved when shooting? Timing?
(EDIT)
Just read your last, I agree.
When shooting your 686 you'd never see those deposits if you were shooting jacketed stuff the majority of the time as well.
Group sizes are always subjective unless run off of a Ransom Rest. But thorough cleaning of the forcing cone area can often help tighten groups up.
Last edited by Spotteddog; 06-26-2009 at 04:23 PM.
Reason: Just read your last post
I have a 686 6" (what else would you have expected with my alias) - it came as a highly polished special run for Europe, and it's mint and perfect compared to my 617 - which is a splendid revolver anyway. It gets the same treatment as my 617 after every visit of the range, and I shoot a lot of reloaded lead SWC (loaded to 38+ specs). It came clean and perfect, and seems to stay this way, after 4 years of medium use.
Your message kind a reassures me too, as I remember I was slightly worried when first shooting it. But, as a mentioned, nothing gets worse, so I guess you need to evaluate in the coming months. I enjoy the 617 a lot, so I guess you will like yours too. Is it a 4" or a 6" ?
I have a 686 6" (what else would you have expected with my alias) - it came as a highly polished special run for Europe, and it's mint and perfect compared to my 617 - which is a splendid revolver anyway. It gets the same treatment as my 617 after every visit of the range, and I shoot a lot of reloaded lead SWC (loaded to 38+ specs). It came clean and perfect, and seems to stay this way, after 4 years of medium use.
Your message kind a reassures me too, as I remember I was slightly worried when first shooting it. But, as a mentioned, nothing gets worse, so I guess you need to evaluate in the coming months. I enjoy the 617 a lot, so I guess you will like yours too. Is it a 4" or a 6" ?
B686
It's a 4". I got it because it was the same size as my 686 4" and I could shoot for 1/10th the cost. I've really come to love shooting it.
Could you describe, or post a picture, of you 'home-made' scraping tool ?
I think I will give my 617 a closer look & possible treatment too, but want to avoid making it worse than it's now.
Thanks
B686
Yes, thank you for that request. I've avoided digging at it for fear of that same thing. I should mention that my pictures I posted are after I've scrubbed in there pretty good with a small steel brush. I use a lead remover cloth but, of course, can't get into that area with it.
I agree that it needs a good cleaning. Soak it up in #9 for awhile and use a BRASS utility (toothbrush) in those areas. Looks normal for a dirty 617. Fantastic revolver but they do get grungy!
Looks like lead build up to me also. Take an old rifle case (.223, .30-06, it doesn't matter), flatten out the mouth, and use it as a scrapper to remove the lead.
Plus one on the leading except for the straightish line crossing the scope tapped hole. I have something like that on a 686 Plus which seems to be where someone got careless with a file dressing the barrel at the cylinder gap.
In addition to the lead splatter on the frame I noticed some flame cutting of the top strap. My 686 has moderate flame cutting (the groove on the top strap) which I traced back to the use of spherical propellants (H110, in my case). I have switched from H110 to 2400, which is extruded flake. No more flame cutting. I shoot 2400 exclusively in my new model 620 and the top strap is still unmarked.
If you disassemble one of those Federal rounds you have been shooting, you will likely find a spherical propellant in use.
In addition to the lead splatter on the frame I noticed some flame cutting of the top strap. My 686 has moderate flame cutting (the groove on the top strap) which I traced back to the use of spherical propellants (H110, in my case). I have switched from H110 to 2400, which is extruded flake. No more flame cutting. I shoot 2400 exclusively in my new model 620 and the top strap is still unmarked.
If you disassemble one of those Federal rounds you have been shooting, you will likely find a spherical propellant in use.
I called out that flame cutting (I called it gouging) in my OP. S&W customer service said that was normal when I called. Is that flame cutting on the top strap showing up on anyone elses' 617?
I called out that flame cutting (I called it gouging) in my OP. S&W customer service said that was normal when I called. Is that flame cutting on the top strap showing up on anyone elses' 617?
Max, When I spoke to S&W about it they also told me that it was "normal" and would eventually stop. However..
1. My Rugers, shooting the same loads, do not have any flame cutting.
2. I am not comfortable with a groove being etched in a highly stressed area.
3. If I can avoid it, I think I should do so.
We all have to make our own decisions, with all due respect to S&W customer service. I have seen photos of blown topstraps and can't help but wonder how much flame cutting those guns had before they blew up. So I have switched away from spherical ball propellants in all my S&Ws (but not Rugers).
The revolvers which I have found flame cutting in are:
Models 686 and 28 using H110 in moderate loads
Model 625 (45 Colt) using HS6 in moderate loads
As I said before, my three Rugers (one .357 and two 45 Colts) have had no issues shooting the same loads.
What I see is lead build up. You may have a little excessive barrel/cylinder gap. Take a feeler gauge and see if it will measure greater that 6/1000ths. S&W usually states thed 10/1000ths is acceptable, but smaller is better (to a point). A pick will clean that up, put some solvent on it and let soak first for awhile.
Holy cow!
I just realized you were talking about a .22LR revolver! So my comments about magnum loads obviously don't apply.
I never would have guessed that you'd get flame cutting like that on a .22.
Wow! I got a set of picks like GRESSANG suggested and the "looks like lead build-up" posts were right. Here's what she looks like after using the picks for a little while.
I also used a feeler gauge to measure the cylinder gap. My smallest gauge is .008 and it wouldn't fit in so it looks like it's within tolerance. The flame-cutting on the top strap is even clearer but sounds like I'm not alone on that.
What several have referred to as "lead" build up may, in fact, be carbon deposits. They seem to be a common problem with .22s. I've had them show up on both of my 617s and on my 17-5. My guess is that they're a function of the relatively dirty .22 ammo. That explains why the problem usually doesn't show up on larger caliber revolvers.
Using a dental pick to scratch them off works fine. A much cheaper method is to use a safety pin. It works just as well. The deposits tend to come off in chunks. They are crumbly and reduce to a black powder.
Here's a way to prevent them from developing. Get some bronze wool (not steel wool!). Each time you clean, tear off a piece from the pad -- it doesn't have to be large -- and use your fingers to twist it into a thick strand, just narrow enough to squeeze between the forcing cone and frame. Then, once you've inserted the strand, work it briskly back and forth for about 10 seconds. The strand will come away black, coated with whatever's accumulated between the forcing cone and the frame. Then, take a swab and soak it with solvent. Put the swab between the forcing cone and the frame and rub it back and forth for about 10-15 seconds. The swab will also come away black; a second swab will likely show up clean. That should solve the problem.
Damage or normal?
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