In an article by R. M. Vivas printed in the SCSW 3rd Edition, it is noted that the 60 NY-1 was “made available in the summer of 1987 and by late 1988 was withdrawn from service.” Mr. Vivas notes that in 1988 “a series of problems” arose. It is my understanding that the bobbed hammer that came on the 60 NY-1 was too light (low mass) and did not provide 100% reliability in popping the primer. Notwithstanding the intervention of S&W armorers, “some problems continued and the guns were removed from the authorized weapons list” in late 1988. Again, according to Mr. Vivas, the guns left in the Equipment Bureau (1,253 units) that had not been sold to individual officers were returned to S&W on June 23, 1989." It is believed the revolvers returned to S&W were modified from DAO to SA/DA and resold commercially.

When I recently purchased a Model 60-2 NY-1 (https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/91472-just-picked-up-my-model-60-2-ny-1-photos.html), I figured it was one of the 1,253 that were returned to S&W in June of 1989. So, when I sent my letter request to Roy Jinks, I specifically asked if the revolver was one of the 1,253 returned units. When I got the factory letter below, I immediately skipped to the line that says the revolver had never been returned to S&W. I figured, well, somewhere along the way it had a replacement hammer installed. However, after I read the rest of the paragraph unique to my revolver, I noted that it was originally shipped to New York City Police Equipment Bureau on October 17, 1989.

Wait a minute, why would the Equipment Bureau be receiving a new 60 NY-1 almost a year after they had been de-authorized and four months after returning all their remaining stock to S&W? Now I’m beginning to wonder if the SA/DA hammer is original to the revolver, but then again I thought the Equipment Bureau ordered DAO for sale to the officers at that time.

Any thoughts from the NY-1 or NYPD collectors out there?

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

Just a bump to the top to match it up with the other post.

Nice gun by the way.

Thanks for the bump, Nortredame. I thought there were a bunch of NYPD collectors out there who would chime in on this one.

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

The Range is located at Rodman's neck Bronx NY, not Randalls Island
I hope this helps, I will stop by the range and say hi

I have just picked up in mint shape a 64 4" and a 64 3"

My NY-1 collection is growing fast with all my friends retiring

I stand corrected Sal, too busy trying to type before thinking. City Island to be specific.
Ya think a Throggs Neck boy woulda got that right first time.

Since we're talkin' NY-1's:

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Sure you did

Mike: I placed a PM for BigBoku, thanks.

Mike and Sal: Out here the LAPD directly obtains the firearms it issues to its officers such as Berettas and now Glocks. In addition to issued weapons, officers are allowed to carry other authorized weapons. Usually, the officers will obtain their authorized weapons through the Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club (LAPRAAC) located on the grounds of the Police Academy. Officers may also purchase other non-authorized firearms through LAPRAAC. I'm wondering if the Equipment Bureau operated that way, i.e., could NYPD officers order/obtain other non-authorized firearms for their personal use through the Equipment Bureau?

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

The short answer is no, the equipment section only sell Glocks, etc
guns used and authorized by NYPD.

But any mos (Member of the service, Officers etc) could purchase anything you want at any gun shop or dealer, example any 1911's other auto's

The sad thing you can't carry them on duty, now off duty is another topic for another time

Ladder 13 I love your pics, I have the same and love them very much,

I don't have any chiefs or 5 shots, I never had any use for them

I have model 64's handy 3" and 4" they work great with my safariland speed loaders CompII on patrol or off duty before autos

Sal1911a wrote:Thanks, Sal. It's just with a ship date from S&W to NYPD Equipment Bureau of late 1989, almost a year after the 60 NY-1 was de-authorized, it doesn't seem to make sense. But hey, that happens sometimes when collecting S&Ws.

Mike: Don't worry about hi-jacking the thread with photos . . . as you noted above, we love photos.

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

That's not my understanding at all, based on a post here a few years ago by Bob Vivas. I don't think that there was EVER a problem popping primers with the M60 NY-1. Where there was a problem was with the engineers WORRYING about popping primers. Prompted by SAAMI specs, they went for a stronger mainspring. This made the size of the hammer stud (hammer pin) hole in the sideplate more critical. Even with all sideplates inspected after a recall, there were still sometimes severe functional problems from the increased mainspring weight. Eventually the repeated problems caused the NYPD Firearms Unit to nix the purchase. It is my understanding that the Firearms Unit experimented with a large number of 36's and experienced what I have experienced with a much smaller number of guns, both J & K: bobbing the hammer and changing nothing else does not reduce reliability of the gun.

Don't know if Bob Vivas still posts here. I believe that you could get the above synopsis confirmed by RichCapeCod, who was there at the time.

Model520fan is correct the hammer stud hole in the sideplate was the problem on the NY-1 Model 60's S&W inspected each of the guns at the range and if the gun was found to be within spec they stamped the inside of the frame above the yoke with a silhoutte target.

If your gun has that stamp above the NY-1 than it was one of the guns that was in the NYPD inventory. Before the changeover to the new forum R.M. Vivas has a great article on the S&W NY-1 Model 60's but I can't seem to locate it.

Hope this helps..........and FYI The NY-1 Model 60 was replaced with the S&W 640 which were not marked NY-1 on the guyn itself.

CLARIFICATION should be the header - sorry!

I was in the first class that was authorized to purchase this firearm.
After graduating the academy in 1988 we ran to purchase these for off-duty use. Since we were only allowed to use this or our service revolver (mine is a Ruger Police Six S/S spurless .38) off-duty this was the logical choice. The rush was outrageous for these; my class graduated around 2200 officers.
Within the year we were ordered to cease from carrying them and the department was doing a recall for inspection of each firearm. The problem that was found to be defective was the floating firing pin that was found in a scarce few to be breaking.
Mine was returned a few months later into 1989, and once again we were allowed to carry them. Lo' and behold a department directive was issued for us to permanently to cease from carrying the weapon. An offer to replace the spurless hammer with a regular hammer was made to us by the Firearms Training Unit - however since our class was the first to carry spurless .38's we would not be allowed to use them for off duty, but merely for our own personal target practice use.
I found this ridiculous, I opted to keep my spurless M-60 - and to this day, 21-years after I purchased it, it fires fine with no problems.
This is the factual information - if anyone wants pictures of the firearm, as well as a close-up of the firing pin, just let me know, I'll be more than happy to supply you with it.

Best I can do with my camera - I tried to get into the NY-1 MOD 60 Stamp as best I could. You can also see the firing pin we have been referring to - again this firearm had not been altered in anyway from the Firearms Training Unit at Rodmans Neck. A few of the gunsmiths actually wanted to buy it from me - NO WAY.

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The thing to remember about NYPD guns is they really aren't the NYPD's guns. Guns are the personal property of the individual officer. So if tomorrow they decide the 3914DAO is no longer authorized, I can keep mine because I bought it myself. I'm no longer authorized to carry it, but I can keep it for recreational purposes. So it's entirely possible and even common for unauthorized guns to stay in its original form in the possession of an officer.

One of the nicest things about retiring from NYPD is being able to carry whatever you feel like whenever you feel like. For me that's most often a .357 scandium model. One with and one without a hammer spur.

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NRA Life Member

I bought my son (10/90 class) his O/D gun which was a 640 SS bobbed centennial in .38sp. and he is still carrying it.

RET_NYPD_MOS:

Your timeline is interesting but raises a question.

What I thought was interesting about my NY-1 is that it was shipped from S&W on October 17, 1989. At that point, it sounds like the revolver was no longer authorized for off duty carry. Which begs the question, why would the Equipment Bureau still be getting them in from S&W. Maybe mine got the "regular" hammer from the Firearms Training Unit like you describe in your posting. However, I just wonder if by mid October 1989, they were having the remainder of the order shipped with "regular" hammers.

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

The equipment section in 1989 started receiving the "Centennial" edition from S&W (internal hammer) - waited for the authorization to start again for the Model 60, and knowing what a scam the contract system is with manuf. and the chiefs at purchasing I held on to little hope. I left the NYPD for a stint in Florida in the first portion of 1990 - at that time the offer was made for us to have spurred hammers put on, or leave the spurless on - but either way - you weren't authorized to carry it. A reimbursement was also offered, and “discount” coupons from S&W were to come along with the reimbursement. The idea was that those who got screwed into this deal would then purchase the Centennial - since I came back in late 1990 the off of reimbursement was off the table to me.
This meant that legally you could carry it, but if you did and got “involved” you were looking at departmental trial room - not a good thing.
I took my chances and carried it when I returned back to the NYPD at the end of 1990 - it worked great on my ankle. I didn't buy another off-duty until 2000 when we were authorized to carry Glock 26 - that's what I got.
It sounds to me that there is a bit of confusion coming from either the NYPD Equipment Section of S&W as it pertains to a shipment in October 1989 for the equipment section resale purposes. These may have either been inadvertently sent, the repaired/inspected weapons being sent back, or replacement for those with defects, and perhaps there were the Centennials being sent.
In Oct 1989 this was the height of the department recall. So is it possible that the bureaucrats in the city were still taking delivery of these weapons, sure - but they weren't being sold to personnel.

Today at a gun show, I showed the Model 60 to an "Expert" - who have me a history about the Model 60 I had - he was wrong about everything. I smiled, took my firearm and walked away.

didn't other people than just NYPD officers get to buy guns from the NYPD equipment bureau? like fireguys and ADA's and feds? anyhow if one of these "Other" purchasers ordered a M-60 it seems that S&W could possibly send them one of the returned guns and then it would letter as sent to NYPD but after it was removed from the approved list for the NYPD....maybe?
Regards,
Rich

No - Equoiment section purchases were for just MOS (Members of the Service - NYPD term for its sworn employees) - what happens is once a firearm is authorized you may purchase it from a licensed store. These firearms were not available to these stores - on the NYPD Equipment section at One Police Plaza - whereas we had to call before coming down just to make sure stock of the firearms, or even any equipment was available for purchase - that's right we had to buy ALL of our equipment, even the pin that held on our shield. Being in highway myself, that got rather expensive.

I bought this from an NYPD Officer. Its interesting in that it has the full hammer. The guy I bought it from was not a gun guy, so, I don't think he had it converted back over. He said at "Gun Day" at the academy, they had the Smiths and the Rugers. He said he picked the biggest one possible as he is a big guy. He originally had a massive set of Pachmyers on it, but had the brand new factory grips to go with it. It letters as an NYPD gun. (I know its a Ruger, but, the title says NYPD Guns Generally!)

From my wandering around on the Ruger Forum, the NYPD Rugers are the rarest of them as the Smiths were considerably more popular. And, all the confirmed NYPD Rugers have a start stamp in the crane. The belief is they were stamped that way by the firearms unit when they passed initial inspection.

Sgt127 - In the July 1987 Class (I was in Company 87-73) we chose our service revolver in the following manner. Around August the department set out a table, you picked up one of two weapons as a male, either the Ruger, or the S&W. I chose the Ruger because my hands are very big, and the S&W just didn't sit well.

We were the first for these particular weapons; they were both spurless as you see in this picture. The only change I made was to the grips, again because of the size of my hands. The day that the person you spoke about meant, was "Gun and Shield Day" - that’s the day we receive our shields, and the guns we had already owned, and used at the range. The department held them until this particular day - so these were chosen by us five-months prior.

We NEVER had a spurred-hammer on this particular S/S model, nor did any service revolvers, or semi's have spurs after the October 1987 graduating class - we graduated in January 1988 - and when we headed to field training, NSU, all the precinct cops had to see these weapons - since we were the first. While you had these firearms, once a veteran saw you with it he knew you didn't come on before July 1987 - unless of course you for some insane reason opted to use this opposed to a blued .38 that you may have had before July 1987.

I had an 892 tax number, those in here who know about the NYPD know what that means - it depicts the time I came on.

But the picture you show is identical as mine, however no spurs were on the hammers - we were not qualified, or allowed to have them on starting in my class.

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Partialy true, several other departments (NYC) were permitted to purchase firearms directly from the equip section. Corrections was allowed at one time to purchase M-10 revolvers.

I purchased 2 model 36's with 3" heavy barrels from the equip section back in 82. They were $61 bucks each, were originally offered as service revolvers (on duty) for police women. I gave one to my father-in-law who had a carry permit (jeweler) and I still have one. BTW, the serial numbers are sequencial.

So, without checking, I would figure the ES had guns ny-1's in stock long after the recall.

RET_NYPD_MOS:

I may have used my own phrase when I said "Gun Day". He described exactly as you did, guns laying on a table, pick the one you like and thats what you will get.

Does yours have the "STAR" inside the yoke?

I cannot. for the life of me, figure out the hammer with a spur. It letters, through Ruger, as an NYPD gun. Yet, it has the spur. I know I got it direct from an NYPD Cop. He put ten years in with NYPD and then went to Nassau county.

Maybe when he left NYPD he took it to a local gunsmith and had a spurred hammer put back in...thats all I can figure.

I also have a Ruger SP-NY. Found it new in the box 10 years ago.

Last time I was in NY, I saw a few old cops carrying revolvers. I looked for a Ruger, but, it seemed most that I saw were Smith 64's. I wonder how many Rugers were ever carried?

I guess I have a particular attachment to NYC. I lived in NYC proper for about a year, when I was a kid and then lived in Valley Stream on long island for about 5 years.

It was not unheard of for someone with a friend at the range to get a revolver changed back to spurred hammer and single/double action sear before separating from the Dept.

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NRA Life Member

I bought 2 Ruger off duty's at the Equip Sec, Speed Six's. One Blue and one SS. Blue had 2 3/4 " bbl and the SS 3" Blue had a hammer and SS was DAO. I changed the SS to hammer. Got the hammers from SILE on Centre Market Place. I used to work p/t at Jovino's in the 70's. I came on before the change over to DAO, which I think was mentioned in another post, around '87.

I'm sorry I sold both Rugers, they were great guns.

I would guess that he had it, as you stated, modified by merely having a gunsmith exchange a spurred - no, I do not have the star as you have shown - again, I was in the first class, it may have come afterwards.

Honestly, in my company of almost 50 recruits, only a few of us picked the Ruger - I love the weapon - when I pull on the trigger I get a dead spot where I can hold the hammer - but then again I was in a shooting with it in 1993 - and there was no aiming - just shooting
.

It's not a matter of being true or not - we're talking about post 1987 - before that I have no idea what the department equipment sections policy happen to be at the time - truthfully - I don’t even care what their policy was, or is. All I can say is what I know as a MOS from the day I came on, until the day I retired. The equipment section was so under stocked that we had to call before even making the trip to Puzzle Plaza just to make sure they had even one off-duty available for sale - same goes for my highway rain gear that took me over a year to get from them. The one thing they always had in stock - gun belts - why? Because they were regular black trouser belts - yep, $5 leather belts is what we used when I came on, and probably for 100 years before that as well. We had to go out on our own if we wanted to purchase Sam Browne rigs - which subsequently became mandatory when we went to 9MM's.

After the academy, I rarely purchased anything from the Equip Sec. I bought all my equip, about 90% from Paul's in the Bronx. Other stuff I ordered direct from Mfgrs. I got my britches from Jasper and eventually ordered my boots (HWY 82-92) from California that my CHP buddy turned me on to.

All I said was, the equip sec did sell, on occassion, to other NYC agency's.

And Ret_NYPD_MOS...Keep the shinny side up and "BEND EM" all!

Wow...lots of memories...shield day, first day in NSU 2 (tax 882XXX)...I still have my S&W model 10 and Model 36, both with blue Tyler grip adapters. The service ammo then was 158 gr. semi-wadcutters.

Now retired living in Florida, I've embraced a 642-1 for daily carry (with S&W wood grips and brushed aluminum T grip of course)...and the upgraded ammo...Gold Dot 135+P short barrel

Hi Everyone

Ret MOS you bring great memories

My tax number was 894***

My class was the second or third to have the NY-1 revolver(1988 I think second)
my collection is growing fast with my friends leaving the job.

I love the S&W model 64 four inch the best, but I still have a few 3" around.

I purchased a few at the equipment section all are very well fitted with clean action.

Over the years I did see a bunch of fake NY-1, lot of cylinder bind, my guess some gun stores sent out a bunch of frames to get the NY-1 stamp from some guy having a bad day with the hammer and the yokes were mixed up and made proper fitting near impossible for a quack gunsmith. oh well
the fake stamps are easy to spot.

stay safe!!!

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sal1911a1

How can you tell if you have a fake stamped NY-1?? Here is a shot of my 2" 64-4 NY-1. I assume it is real as it also has the serial number laser engraved on left side of frame.

I am still looking for a 3" if anyone wants to part with one

Joined in 1984 and my memory is slightly different, and very little of it left. Anyway, we were issued Blue Model 10's, heavy barrel only, and the only option I remember was a Ruger. For off duty we could carry the Colt, Smith or service Ruger. I carried my model 10 in a swivel holster til retirement in 2004. My wife joined the dept in 88 and carried a stainless model 64. Off duty were the chiefs purchased from the equiptment section. I purchsed quite a few, don't know where they went. I recently found a receipt for one I purchased in 1996 for $336. Anyway we are both cops here in Florida and carry Glocks, but still have a fondness for Wheel guns, ( me not her). One thing I do remember as a PCT Sgt (32 pct) was the transition to 9mm. The cops were allowed to either choose a Glock or Smith semi, but at the initial change over Sig Sauer also were tried. The initial batched had issues with rusting so they were never approved and all returned to Sig. Funny thing it was almost a badge of honor to allow your service weapon to get so rusted/dirty/ corroded that the range Officers could'nt open them. Always a big joke back at the PD. Also when I retired in 04 I took my model 10 to a shop for trade-in, I believe it was Jovinos, or the one near old Police Plaza. Anyway, they offered me twenty five dollars. So disgusted, I left it in my locker when I retired and never went back for it. Wish I did, but, at least we have wifes model 64 and brother-in-law"s Ruger, Police six (also retired). When I came down to Florida had a garage sale and sold or gave away every NYPD item i still had, wanted it to be a memory and nothing else. Did'nt know I'd be a cop here again, or wife either. The kids on the block were all dressed in NYPD stuff and had a ball playing cops and robbers. Still after 9/11 I wish I kept the uniform I wore that day, dusty dirty and all. It's somewhere here though in Florida, probably in a kids storage/play box. Sorry for the rant, just alot of memories. Never thought i'd miss the NYPD, but really they were the most professional Cops I ever met. Been doing it now here in Florida almost 5 years, hate every second of it but pays for the toys like my new 13-3 3 inch.

Equipment section wound up getting out of the business of selling highway gear - (HWY 95-01) I guess it was too much over-head. I bought all my leather, britches, Sam Brown, Lanyard, etc from Big Apple police equipment in Staten Island - went through around $2,000 in one day between my jacket, boots (Bates Silent Sneakers), a few pair of britches, custom tailored duty shirts, new Summer Blouse with hooks - the summer blouse I actually got from Parks in Brooklyn.

And like I said, it took about a year to get the rain gear - so for about that time - I remained in the RMP when it rained
So the West Shore Expressway was ticket-free on those days!
I actually still use that rain gear on my wheel down here - and my Hwy Duty Shoei - I get remarkable looks when I pass someone.
This is me with the Summer Blouse and fifty pounds of gear. (Yes thats the police academy auditorium),

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I was part of the retiree contingent that responded - I still have my air filter from the initial day with all the dust still on and in it - and the helmet they gave me at Fresh Kills - I'm donating it a 9/11 rememberance organization. Aside from that - I have the polyps in my nasal cavity as a constant reminder from sucking in that ****.

On NY-1 fakes the NY-1 does not line up, they could never get it straight. The actions are horrible(cylinder bind) A gun store in Long Island was busted for that, and any guns from that store were turned down by the range and sent back.

Laser is real, issued around 1990- 1991,

The actions and fitting on the ones around that time are perfect.

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sal1911a1

Sal - I don't know - take a look at my 60 on page 2 - that's a city NY-1 stamp - orangehole's stamp is way more perfect than mine - and I got that one from 1 PP.

Model 60 NY-1 was a very limited run

I don't know how many were made, it was in service for a short run,

I don't have much knowledge on that model, other than it gave light hits and it was taken out of service. I don't remember the equipment section selling that model, are you sure you purchased at One PP.

S&W stamped the guns NY-1 not the city

Call S&W with the serial number, they may have more info.

Orange hole has a model 64 2" with the frosted vapor finish and a laser NY-1 that was the last batch of NY-1's to be made.
yours could be fine, just a very early run, maybe 1987 or early 1988

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sal1911a1

Yepper - it was purchased at the equipment section - and was part of the 1989 recall. All of my service weapons - Ruger, Police Six, S&W M-60, and S&W 5946 were from One PP (5946 we got for no cost, had to pay $75 for the night sights). The one off-duty I bought right before I retired was the Glock 26 and I purchased that from NY Iron Works in Manhattan.

The picture of the one I put up is from the equipment section - the numbers are off line - I believe the ones that were totally straight and neat looking were the ones from outside the department - ours is a typical NYPD Contratcual BS stamp. City probably paid $200,000 for a stamp kit they sell at Harbor Freight for $9.99.

When a gun was purchased at the Equiptment section it was automatically deemed servicable/authorized. When a gun was purchased from a private vendor it was supposed to be taken to the range and approved/authorized by a range instructor. The only modification allowable was the switching of the wood grips to a rubber approved brand, ( basically Pachymyr ). So as a desk Sgt, when a cop brought me their new weapon the first thing we did was throw away the cheap original grips and put on rubber ones. ( We showed them) Then I would make an entry in the Blotter as to the Weapon, serial #, Mos, and place of purchase etc etc. Finally, we had to fill out and send a form to the NYSP which kept a NYS record of every gun owned in the state. Once a year during inspections we would print out a teletype, sometimes hundreds of pages long with the MOS and every gun registered to him. Well, some of the cops had 50 or more guns at home and impossible to have them carry in and inspect each one. Although I DID it as I was supposed to. Anyway, you can see where some may have slipped through the cracks and ended up for sale, changed, altered, or sold w/o the Department knowing. Some of the precincts had hundreds of cops and you can see the logistics of trying to account for every gun. When I left the Dept had 45,000 members. So that's basically why all these guns have rubber grips and the ( **** ) wooden ones were discarded right into the garbage can under the desk. As my Alzheimer fades and comes will add more. One last thing, with the transition to 9mm's I believe the dept gave you the gun for free, but you were required to buy and show the Desk the leather gear for the gun Belt, Holster etc etc which cost about $150. The transition course from revolver to 9mm was 3 days at the range. Many habits at the range were drilled into you and after 20 plus years I still do. However, here in Florida those habits are deemed wrong, inappropriate, and even dangerous, but that's another thread.

I know this is an old thread, my 60-2 has two markings stamped above the NY-1. Wonder what they are and mean. I bought this gun new from a major sports retail store in Florida in 1989. It is accurate and has a smooth action.
Thanks,

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The mark under my NY-1 stamp - if I remember correctly was that this showed that the range inspected this during the recall.

And Florida 1098 is right on the mark - once a year, usually in the summer the bosses wold have us bring in all of our firearms and make sure everything was on the up and up on our 10 cards. I would delay and delay out of pure laziness - until I was threatened with DOA or EDP watching at CIH, KCH, or IZ - all of a sudden my guns were at the desk!

Ok, ok, but inquiring minds want to know where you got the leather underwear.

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NRA Life Member

Now now - I can't give up all those secrets...

Oh, alright, alright. Then just tell me why you guys were always "Hwy not available k"!!

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NRA Life Member

The question asked most by civilians is how to get out of a speeding summons.

The question most asked by MOS is how come we're not available - this is hush hush - the moment you guys take the 53 on the Belt - we jump into the precinct for some food on the arm - )

Seriously, I know in 5 sometimes we only ran two units for the whole borough, on midnights there were times we had just one, and they would have IDTU and AI duties, so the 122 would have to give us a hand on the SIE, WSE, Veterans, MLK roadways. Can't speak for 1,2,3 (District), and 4.

Day tours we were in court, midnights during the 80's and again today there just were not enough cars on patrol. I remember some nights (late tours) where my partner and I would turn out of HWY 1 and have to cover HWY 3. If we got an AI job or IDTU job we'd be O/S the remainder. Thus...the HWY not available K....

Yepper - we had to cover Hwy 2, and they covered us as well with adjoining roadways of the Belt, VZ, and SIE.

Ok, ok. Clearly you guys learned well to always have a story.

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NRA Life Member

Bob,

Welcome back! Did you relocate the gun shop, or give it up? Where are you now, and what's up?

520

In the 80's don't know if it was harder to get Highway to respond or Housing. They were both eternally not available K. If you got them to show up they told you it was'nt their job. As a Man North Patrol boss, it drove me nuts. But, now working here in S.Florida can only look back and laugh, love them all.