I have a new pet peeve! Over the last few months, I have several friends that have purchased high priced and supposedly high quality guns from three different manufacturers. One was a $1,300.00 Kimber 3" bbl. carry gun in .45acp that came equipped with a laser sight as well as the Tritium iron night sights. Sorry I am not familiar with Kimber Models. Another friend purchased a full sized combat model, a Rock River 45acp and it set him back $2,700.00!! The third friend bought a Taurus Circuit Judge carbine and I believe he paid around $700.00 for that.

In each of these cases, the firearms did NOT work properly out of the box. In the case of the Kimber and the Rock River .45, they had multiple failures to go into battery and FTF with HARDBALL! If they had problems with hardball ammo, what would happen with hollow point ammo? Each of the Companies told my friends that the guns needed to be "broken in". Shouldn't a handgun from a supposed top manufacturer with a price tag like these come "broken in" and ready for action?? I think that having to put 300 -400 rounds through a "combat" gun in that price range to make it work properly is absolutely despicable, and I believe that they should come out of the box ready to go!

In the case of the Taurus Judge, after TWO trips back to Taurus to make the gun capable of firing a single cylinder full of ammo, and still not being able to do so, the gun store gave my friend back his money.

I have bought a LOT of new guns in my time and I have never heard of these extensive "break-in" periods, and so many FTF, especially with such pricey guns. What is going on here and am I the only guy to be so outraged about this? This now seems to be a very common thing these days. I keep hearing of "break-in" periods.....WTH?? I have purchased NIB S&W auto's, Colt and Browning auto's and I load the magazines and fire away; never had these problems.

What do you guys & gals think? Should it be like this or am I just getting older and irritable?

Regards,
Chief38

Break-in period is pure BS. The piece will either cycle or not especially with hardball factory ammo. I have never experience any problem with a series 3 Gold Cup or a SA TRP Professional. With that said, in the event that your friends are hand loading there may be a problem with their sizing or seating practices. Concerning the Judge, you did not mention what type of problem the revolver was experiencing. Again, was the shooter using hand loads?

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Doug

The requirement for a "break-in" period stems from the fact that we want match grade tolerances and utter reliability. In the first 60-years of the 1911 pattern guns, you either had a GI-style reliable gun that was good to go under all kinds of conditions but only 4-5" accurate at 25 yards. Target guns were 1-2" accurate but a bit finicky unless fed hand-taylored loads. We now have target-level accuracy AND good reliability if we are willing to put a few boxes of ammo in to allow the parts to settle in and mesh together. I think we are coming out better for the bargain. BTW, I have a $1300 Kimber that balked a few times with hardball in the first 250 rounds but is now very reliable with ball and HP's. The only guns I have bought lately that were 100% from day one were GLOCKs. Some complain about their accuracy. You pays ur money and you takes ur choice.

New guns will be tighter than old shot out guns. That's a fact. So, new guns need to be cleaned from the get go to remove the shipping oils applied and recoated with a good gun oil. I've seen many brand new S&Ws bone dry on the actions. Oil your guns before use. Some guys don't understand this, and their first range session is a disappointment, plagued with problems. On auto loaders, most problems are magazine problems, yet they will blame the gun.

The action needs a little firing to hone in the parts, that is on a non custom gun. 50% of the guns hitting the stores are full of burrs, some have debris from the manufacturing process left in the actions. The assemblers need to make a quota and don't do perfect work, that's why they offer a warrantee.
As far as a barrel break in period, there is no need to break in a barrel. The bullet can't tell if the barrel is new or has 1000 rounds thru it.

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NRA Benefactor Member

The ammo used in both the Kimber .45 and the Rock River .45 was Federal 230 grain Factory Hardball, and the ammo in the Circuit Judge was Winchester 250 Grain RNFP lead Factory .45 Colt. The two fellas that bought these guns do not reload yet.

I purchased a Colt Gold Cup Series 70 National Match, UNFIRED, NIB a few years ago, and with reloaded lead ammo (230 gr. RNL) I have NEVER experienced a FTF or to go into battery, from day one I have a S&W M41 that I bought new and it eats anything you put in it. I have shot S&W M&P .45's right out of the box and they worked 100%. I can't imagine that service pistols are tighter than a Colt Gold Cup - that's the most accurate pistol I own!

Don't you guys feel that what ever "break-in' period a gun requires, it should be done at the factory? When you spend $1,300 and $2,700 bucks for a "combat" pistol, shouldn't it work properly right out of the box? Am I getting too picky?

By the way, the problem with the Taurus was that the cylinder would not rotate. It jammed up and was obviously not rotating symmetrically. they tried twice to fix it, and then my friend asked and received his money back.

Chief38

The Taurus revolver is , well a Taurus, and he got a defective one that should have functioned properly from the factory. Shame on Taurus. Kimber makes a good pistol, so does Colt.

Les Baer makes the tightest 1911 pistols in the industry. It takes 2 men and a boy to rack the slide when new. On 1911s, some guys like them tight, and Les Baer sells a metric ton of his pistols every year.
I feel Colt makes a loose pistol compared to the semi customs out there. They rattle when shaken. Remove the recoil spring and notice the slop of the slide to the frame fit, try that with a Ed Brown or Les Baer. Brown has slight movement, Baer has none.

Do they need to be this tight? No, but some people like them tight, sometimes they don't shoot until they loosen up. That's why old worn 1911 pistols will be more reliable than new Baers.

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NRA Benefactor Member

500 Magnum Nut

I can not argue with you over the Les Baer because I have never had the pleasure of handling or shooting one. I do hear they are fantastic pistols though. As far as the Colt Gold Cup is concerned, I am simply in awe of the accuracy the pistol will deliver. I can routinely shoot one hole groups smaller than a half dollar at fifty feet. It may not be the tightest pistol on the market, but I can not fault it for either accuracy or reliability, and as far as price is concerned, it is still reasonable compared to some of the "super guns" sold today.

The two pistols (Kimber & Rock River) are "billed" as Combat guns, and so I do not know why they would need to be tighter than a Gold Cup which is a Target pistol. All I know is that if my name was in the side of the barrel or slide of the gun, I would make sure it worked properly BEFORE it left the Factory.

As far as the Taurus is concerned, I agree with you........it's a Taurus! Still, for $700 bucks..............

regards,
Chief38

I am about to make a big announcement and you guys have helped me by emphasizing these problems.

I am about to become a "Break-In Specialist".

For a flat fee of $500 I will take your new gun and with 1,000s round of ammunition supplied by you, I will shoot your gun.

As soon as my new electronic ear protection arrives and I complete the construction of a backstop above the television in my family room, I'll make the announcement of my grand opening.

Colt Gold cup pistols are tight were they have to be, so they shoot great. The slide to frame rails are not critical on a 1911, but some handgunners are paying good money and want them tight everywhere.

I like nice 1911s, in fact I'm crazy for this pistol. 100 years young this year, and nearly every one has their copy of the original.
Even Remington is making them again after 60 years....

I have a nice Brown collection, I had a Gold Cup for years, and it was an exceptional pistol. I sold the Colt because it was a series 80 pistol, and I don't care for extra safties in the newer design.

I got my money back on the Colt, so I'm happy to have sold it and moved back to what I more prefer.

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NRA Benefactor Member

dkees:

Let me know if you need a partner in your new venture.

With all the new guns that need to be broken in, there should be TONS of business!!

Chief38

No sympathy on the Taurus Judge.

On the Kimber, was it cleaned and lubed before the first firing? There have been several problems at the range with them for lack of this preliminary cleaning and lubing. Apparently their shipping oil should be removed before use. I've "fixed" several just by cleaning them.
"Why should I have to clean it? It's brand new!"

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Science plus Art

All .45 230gr ball ammo no longer is created equal...Federal's Wallyworld stuff now uses small pistol primers, even. Federal American Eagle is the best I have seen out of the box lately. The RR is a seriously fitted match gun and I would expect some break in with it. The Kimber...well, I just don't buy Kimbers, but yes, it should work. The Taurus I won't commant on.

With the 1911's there may be magazine issues, ammo issues (believe me, some new ball ammo available today is pure ****) and shooter issues, not to mention that the 1911 likes to be run wet, and lots of shooters don't lube well enough.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

I'm also vexed by this break-in period thing. The Glock 23 my LE agency transitioned to back in the day worked perfectly. I still have it after retiring in '97, shoot it often (LEOSA cert., annually & practice in between) and it has NEVER failed me.

My daily carry is a J frame S&W which has also never failed me.

The .45acp ammo was Federal out of the silver/blue box which is their premium stuff. It was purchased about 10 years ago......how do I know, it was mine.

I suppose this new break in period thing is "the new normal" a far as I can tell.

My favorite range gun is my Les Baer Premier II with the one and a half inch guarantee at 50 yards. My favorite carry gun is a Les Baer SRP Commanche with the standard two and a half guarantee. What's a "break-in?" They have both shot flawlessly from day 1. Whenever I'm feeling a little "down", the PII and I head to the range - I can't help but smile starting with the first shot.

MSgt G:

And that's the way it SHOULD BE!!

When I bought my sprinfield 19111A1 I was advised to put at least 200 rounds of hardball through it before trying anything else. Well 200 rounds of hardball went through it and haven't had a failure to feed, failure to fire or any of the ills that seem to befall these pistols. I used it for steel plate matches and outside of a few operator induced errors it has performed very well. Now this is a reworked springfield 1911A1 with all the bells and whistles. However my 1943 rack grade Ithaca has been
carried by a WWII vet in tanks, fired I don't know how many times and is loose as a goose. When I first started shooting the steel plates it was all I had at the time. Ran Flawlessly. Moral of the story is that maybe the new stuff needs to be broken in before going firing big time. Frank

My Baer's have all been extremely tight. They all required a break in period and Mr. Baer makes no bones about it. I paid extra for that tight tight fit and love it.

My 45 PII only took one box of ammo till the jitter on the complete lockup stopped. That was over 8000 rounds ago and I cannot even begin to remember the last stoppage.

My 10MM HWML took about 500 rnds to really break in. I would get occasional lockup problems until around that period. But, I paid for a 1.5" guarantee gun and expected this. No problems in the last 7000 odd rounds out of it.

My 38 Super PII never had a bobble. Great gun.

Mr. Baer builds tight guns. You pay extra for that. Your choice.

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SWCA 1646

I just shoot revolvers anymore but used to shoot competion and carried semi-autos. The above is the best response I've seen posted. If you want a gun that's "really tight" and shoots "really tight" goups it will require break-in (and cleaning and lubrication during the process) to lap the surafces together because "as delivered" it's MORE THAN "really tight" so that AFTER break-in, it's still "really tight", and will be for a long time with reasonable care, "really tight".

[QUOTE=500 Magnum Nut;135788902]On auto loaders, most problems are magazine problems, yet they will blame the gun.

[QUOTE]

You mention most auto loader problems are magazine problems, not gun problems. What care and feeding do we need to give the magazines?

"What do you guys & gals think?"
I think i'll keep on buying older guns! :-)

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173-358429
13.5-2400

A couple of years ago, my brother found out that I had been shooting and collecting 1911 pattern pistols. Actually I had been at for a while but kept it on the down low. Once he found out he proceeded to do something I never would have expected. He went straight to one of our local gun stores, asked for the best 1911 pistol in the store because he wanted to give one to his brother. The clerk at the store promptly placed a Kimber CDP on the counter. "I'll take it!" declared my brother, and with out questioning the price purchase it and presented it to me as a gift.

With out going into the details, the gesture represented reciprocity for an act that only brothers could know and understand. I was humbled.

Since we hunt together on the same deer lease, he anxiously followed progress of the pistol. 50, 75, 100, 200, rounds. Every magazine had a FTF. I called Kimber. What was wrong? The gun is "tight", keep shooting it they instructed. Still, FTF every magazine. Bought extra Kimber magazines. 250, 300, 350, 400, 500 rounds. Same result. Called Kimber several times. Keep shooting the told me. I wanted to send it back. "All we will do is put it in a mechanical cycler" what ever that is, so "keep shooting". 500,750, 1000 rounds. Your "limp wristing" they told me........"limp wristing". Finally, as I approached the 2000 round mark one day at the lease my brother just looked at me as if to say, enough. I was giving it all I had, tried everything. Cleaned meticulously. Considering the circumstances I did not want to quit. But He knew as I did that basically, despite his intentions, what he had given me was a piece of junk. We talked about it. What would we do with it? We could trade it off or sell it. But then it would be someone else's problem or worse, someone would actually believe they could trust their life with it. We both agreed, it would be put away and that is where it remains today.

My brother had the best of intentions. I have never, and will never forgive Kimber.

FOX84:

Man, sorry to hear that! Just out of curiosity did you ever send the gun back to Kimber? It would be interesting to see what they had to say about all this.

I do not own a Kimber (I am a S&W AND COLT man) but I will admit seeing more than just one or two Kimbers have FTF problems. Yet when you go onto forums like this, there are always a lot of people who swear by them, so it's hard to figure out.

I own two .45's, one is a Colt Gold Cup and the other a Colt Series 80 Gov't. model and they have never missed a beat (even with re-laods). Not to say that Colt has never put out a "stinker", but most of the fellas who shoot competitively in my Gun Club either us either a Colt GC or a Les Baer and they seem to work very well.

I would call Kimber and tell them all the problems you have been having, and request that they take the gun and either repair it to your satisfaction, replace it or refund your Brothers hard earned money. I know Kimbers are not cheap!

I know you must be stewing, so I would not let this just become a paperweight in your safe.

Good luck with this, and please let us know how you make out.

Regards,
Chief38

I HAD 3 Kimbers ( all at the same time) and because of a recent physical accident I had to sell 2 of them but kept the 3rd out of sentiment for 1911's.

All were 5" models...Target II's with a single Gold target model and all were the despised external extractor models. In 7 years I had ONE bad go round with them caused by a squib load I had stuck together (primer..no powder...geeze) and other than that they never balked at 230 HB or even the lead wadcutters when loaded properly and taper crimped.

Chief: I think that the majority ( or dammed near all) of the Kimbers you see that "develop" FTF..etc...are the short models ( NON 5" barrel models) and it will take areal snake oil salesman to convince ME it isnt cause by some amount of breaking the wrist. I have small hands but even with mine its difficult to get a REAL GRIP on some them....let alone a man with large hands.

Sully:

You are absolutely correct! Not "damn near", but ALL of the Kimber's I have seen with FTF problems have been the shorter barrel "carry guns". Like I said, most of the people on this and other Forums have nothing bad to say about the Kimber Pistol line, but now that the small carry .45's are all the rage, I see more and more people coming down to the Range with them and having problems. The most recent one I saw (sorry I am not Kimber savvy with the models) was a 3" or 3 1/2" barrel and was green and Camo with Crimson Trace Laser Grips and a Trijicon 3 dot iron sight.

Wouldn't you think that the "carry" models would actually shipped as MORE reliable than the target models??? Were it my name on the slide I would make sure that a carry gun worked out of the box, not after hundreds of rounds. My personal feeling on "break-in periods" is that the Factory should do the breaking-in, and the gun should work reliably right out of the box, (especially for 1,300.00 + bucks).

Oh, just wanted to add one thing in response to the possible "limp wristing" issue you raised. I fired my friends Kimber personally because I thought he might have been guilty of doing just that, but the gun had a few FTF when I fired it as well, and I certainly was NOT limp wristing it. The ammo being used was 230 gr. Factory Hardball, so the ammo was certainly not the cause either.

Regards,
Chief38

Sully that is a very astute observation concerning carry/compact versions of Kimbers 1911. The model given to me by my Bro was a CDP II Compact. This model had the 4" barrel with-out a barrel bushing. Would not have been aware of like issues amongst these and similar models since I have never shot on a public range with the exception of my CCW qualifier.

I simply shared the experience since I happen to agree with Chief and some of the others that these weapons should leave the plant good to go. A "settling in" I can understand but not a "break in" for proper function? Even so things happen and everyone deserves an opportunity to make things "right". This happened not to be my experience with the people behind the brand/product.

Anyway this is long behind us now. The one positive that came out of it was that I got to be pretty darn good at clearing those malfunctions but they occurred so regularly that the effect was lost as a training tool. This along with the fact that I got tired of getting smacked in the forehead with hot brass, but that is another story.

This afternoon #2 son and I headed to the range to shoot our new to us Model 13 and 19 revolvers. (Which is how I ended up on this forum) We also, as always, took out my "working guns". A Springfield Mil Spec, Lightweight Officers, and Compact Officers. All have been worked over by Briley. The Officers Models have Clark bushings and reverse plugs. The Springfield and LW Officers are my primary carry guns and use the Compact to practice with, being all steel it can handle the higher round count. I do recall a couple of stove pipes on the Springfield but that was long before the Briley work. The Officers models never gave me any trouble, but problems with the barrel bushing and plug are well documented so they were changed out.

We put 250 rounds though them today, WWB 230 JHP, American Eagle 230 HB, UMC 230 HB, and Winchester Ranger +P STX. As always, they run like the proverbial sewing machine.
The officers will buck pretty good with those +P's but with proper follow though they stay on target.

Although I have a some Model 70's and 38 Supers that are never fired and will someday be passed on, I have never felt the need to have more than those three pistols.

We sure are having fun with our new revolvers though.

Attached Images

	1911 Springfield.jpg (52.0 KB, 27 views)
	1911 Compact Officers.jpg (76.6 KB, 26 views)
	1911 Lightweight Officers.jpg (73.6 KB, 25 views)

Well... just to take the "Other" side.. every Kimber instruction book will tell you up front.. about the " Break In".. not that difficult to follow.. Clean before using.. ( seems that you would do that anyway ).. fire 100/150 rounds clean and repeat.. at least 4 more times.. using FMJ 230gr. ammo..
I'm gonna go with the fact they built it and they would know what the procedure is..

OK .. I'm a little biased.. I carry a KIMBER Ultra CDP II every day.. It went back to the factory one time because I sent it back to have the slide Kim-Pro'd to match the frame..

I am NOT a great shot by any means.. but in my opinion the little 3" barrel will do just fine for personal defense..
( And YES the the hole in the "S" bottom right was intentional )

7 Yards.. Kimber Ultra CDP II.. PMC 230 gr. FMJ

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

Hey, you could always purchase a sigma. Mine has never failed to fire and I use the cheapest, dirtiest ammo out there. Of course, it is NOT a competition pistol like your high dollar ones, but at least it fires.

I thought the whole issue with a “Break In” period in any gun was to smooth out the leftover machining marks. Triggers smooth out, barrel grooves or threads loose the sharp edges, slide rails glide together, and any other moving parts wear together. That is why you get rid of the grease they were shipped in and change over to an oil that you can keep cleaning up after shooting. It’s the same reason cars don’t get their optimal gas mileage right from the factory. The parts have to wear together and once the engine is in essence self polished it will run a little easier. The old rule of thumb for new vehicle used to be not to go faster than 50 or 60, drive longer than thirty minutes, and to change the oil two or three times in the first month. The first oil change I would see metal in the oil. But then again, I can’t believe the number of people I have known that don’t know to wipe out the barrel grease before firing a brand new gun. Shotguns used to be caked with the stuff inside the barrel. I have heard it as the barrel punch when new. But if you don’t know, you just don’t know.

Good afternoon Guy's and Gal's,

Since I started this post I feel compelled to tell you something refreshing that happened just last evening!

The night that I was at the Range (1/21/11) when my friend had his FTF problems with his Kimber and Rock River .45's, inspired me to post the original thread. I was also there with a second friend that night who was interested in purchasing one of those small Kimber carry .45 Auto's but after seeing the dismal performance that night decided not to. Well, last night we were going down to the Range, and I got a call to bring some .45 acp ammo with me, but my buddy did not tell me why, but I did as he had requested.

We usually shoot Colt Gold Cups and S&W 38 Specials down at the indoor Range, so I grabbed a few boxes of lightly loaded (4.3 grains of W231 under a 230 grain cast RNL bullet) and set off to the Range. When I got there, my Buddy pulled out a NIB Colt Defender .45 Auto which is pretty much a copy of the Kimber carry pistol. After he showed it around, I said to him judging from the dismal performance of the Kimber pistol and coupled with the fact that I brought you very lightly loaded lead bullets that were intended for a Gold Cup with a 12 pound spring, I think you are going to have a lot of operating problems, jams, and failures to feed. He said, I was probably right, but we're here, so let me shoot it and let's see what happens.

He loads up The Defender, and I couldn't believe my eyes........... The gun functioned 100% perfectly with all 100 bullets, and there were no hick-ups what so ever! I could not even believe that the gun cycled with the lightly loaded "Gold Cup re-loads", and to top it off, this little sucker printed 2" groups at 50 feet after we adjusted the rear sight for windage. UNVELIEVABLE...... the $800 Colt blew away the $1300 Kimber. The only thing that the Colt did not have (other than all the problems) was the Laser Grip which to me is not necessary on an up close and personal gun anyway (but of course can always be added).

I am a dyed in the wool S&W man, as far as a self defense gun is concerned, and I will always carry a S&W revolver for that purpose, but if tomorrow I was told that I HAD TO carry an Auto Loader, I would get one of those little Colt's in a heart beat! I applaud Colt for turning out a fine gun THAT WORKS CORRECTLY RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX without having to "break it in with hundreds of rounds!!

I was very pleased to see that once in a while something actually works as it was meant to without a bunch of excuses........VERY REFRESHING to say the least!

Regards,
Chief38

[QUOTE=russp1;135793748][QUOTE=500 Magnum Nut;135788902]On auto loaders, most problems are magazine problems, yet they will blame the gun.

Pistol or rifle mags have the same simple check. Load 2 cartridges into the magazine. Then press down lightly on the upper cartridge and see if the cartridge snaps up smartly. Sometimes they are dragging on the rear end or front end. If they drag on the front they will nose dive the round and a misfeed will happen. If they drag on the rear the round won't be picked up from the mag.

The repair is simple. One fix is to remove the spring and stretch out the spring on the affected side. This will add more tension to the weak area. Another option is to reach for a pliers and bend/tweak the mag lips to correct the spacing. A third approach is to squeeze the mag in a vise. Squeezing a mag in a vise one way causes the mag to grow on the other sides. This gives the cartridges a little more wiggle room.

These 3 approaches will fix a mag and get them working like they should. Other than ejector or extractor issues, 99% of auto loading problems are magazine problems.

Every once in a while clean the insides of the magazines with a clean towel. I then use CLP and very lightly wipe down the body and springs. Don't over do the CLP because oil attracts dirt. Many don't advise lube at all. I know this too, but I like the smell of CLP.....

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NRA Benefactor Member

one thing nearly for sure with the taurus...it's good you have the lifetime warranty...because you will surely need it!!

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

This is interesting. A friend of mine bought a little Kimber 1911 style .45 acp 3 1/2"(?) barrel. It does shoot extremely well. It was finicky until it got some (a bunch actually) rds thru it. It did require "break in". So what? They (Kimber) said it required break in. Is it overkill for a carry gun? I'd sure say yes. A looser gun requiring no break in would be just as good but that's what he wanted. Pick your poison. It's a nice gun and he occaisionally shoots PPC "off duty" COF with it. It's nice to hace a gun that will keep shots in the X ring. If you're happy with a looser fitted gun that's fine, if you want a tack driver semi-auto you're going to deal with breaking it in. So what?