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Old 02-27-2011, 12:08 AM
RAMS RAMS is offline
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Question FTF with 22 LR v. 22 mag

With a 22 LR/22 mag combo revolver, there often will be some FTF with 22 LR ammo, but few if any FTF with 22 mag ammo.

Is the reason for this fact the allegedly better primer distribution in mag rims? Is there in fact better primer distribution in 22 mag rims?
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:38 AM
tomcatt51 tomcatt51 is offline
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Is the reason for this fact the allegedly better primer distribution in mag rims? Is there in fact better primer distribution in 22 mag rims?
Maybe it's just that alot of .22 LR has become pretty crappy. Haven't shot any .22 mag for quite awhile.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:31 PM
Hired Gun Hired Gun is offline
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Does this revolver have two cylinders or are you trying to fire LR ammo in the magnum cylinder?
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:10 PM
tomcatt51 tomcatt51 is offline
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Does this revolver have two cylinders or are you trying to fire LR ammo in the magnum cylinder?
Fire .22 LR ammo in a .22 mag cylinder and you know it. It usually splits the cases.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:50 PM
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I would think for the price of 22mag it would be of better quality. The fit of the 22LR cylinder might also play into it.
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:04 PM
Hired Gun Hired Gun is offline
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Fire .22 LR ammo in a .22 mag cylinder and you know it. It usually splits the cases.

We know this but does the OP know it. I run into people all the time that think it's no problem to fire 22LR in their 22mag chambered firearm. They will say something like it's no different than shooting 38"s in their 357.

I don't agree that it's poor quality of the LR ammo. In nearly 1/4 million rounds fired i bet I have only seen no more than two duds. This includes supervising rim fire shooters as a range officer. Misfires are almost never due to a bad round. Poor gun maintanence or worn firearms are more likely the cause of the problems I have ever seen. I will agree some of the really cheap rimfire ammo fouls barrels and actions up faster than the better stuff but it usually always goes bang.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:00 PM
tomcatt51 tomcatt51 is offline
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In nearly 1/4 million rounds fired i bet I have only seen no more than two duds.
I wish my experience with 22 LR ammo was that good.
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:01 PM
Hired Gun Hired Gun is offline
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I shoot mostly CCI manufactured rimfire ammo and for the last 10 years Federal 550 pack ammo for plinking. I avoid Remington brands due to how dirty it runs. In the 17's it's all good reliability wise. Accuracy varies when I stray from the V-Max bullets.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:12 PM
RAMS RAMS is offline
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Hired Gun,
I am of talking about two different cylinders (as is always the case with all combo guns) but the same hammer strike. I believe you when you say some folks try to use LRs in a mag cylinder, but that is not the issue here.

The question is whether 22 mag ammo has better primer distribution than 22 LR ammo. You are correct that FTF often is caused by weak springs, excessive end shake, and similar problems that gunsmiths would know about. That's why I chose the smithing section to ask this question. However, there can be no question that some lots of LR ammo, especially some (not all) bulk packs, are notorious for significant FTF; CCI is not one of those, nor is 22 mag ammo.

Thus the question: does 22 mag ammo have more reliable primer distribution than 22 LR ammo?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:43 PM
Hired Gun Hired Gun is offline
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I would say no. It's exactly the same. They are both primed using the exact same method. Each and every case gets the exact same amount of priming compound.

If you are getting failure to fire I would first check firing pin protrusion and then firing pin indent.

Can you post pictures of a single firing pin strike on a fired case from both an empty LR case and a Mag case from this same pistol?
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:37 PM
RAMS RAMS is offline
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"Can you post pictures of a single firing pin strike on a fired case from both an empty LR case and a Mag case from this same pistol? "

Thanks for the reply Hired Gun, but, no, I don't save them. In any case, they are the same strike marks; not too light and not too deep.

It's important to understand that I am not talking about any one particular revolver. I mentioned my combos only to make the point that because the hammer strike in a particular combo has the same force on both the LR ammo and mag ammo fired from it (assuming non-defective cylinders, etc.), and because only the LR ammo sometimes has FTF, the reason for that discrepancy in ignition SEEMS to be inferior primer compound distribution in LR ammo rims. What I am saying applies to all .22 LR guns: revolvers , semi-autos, handguns and rifles, not to just my particular combo revolvers which are 100% mechanically OK. The strike marks on LR ammo rims are exactly the same as on mag ammo rims, yet only the LR ammo has FTF, especially but not only bulk pack Remington.

This is a fact based on over half a century of shooting, as well as the complaints routinely seen on gun forums: LR ammo has far, far more FTF than mag ammo. And, if you change the position in the charge hole of a struck but unfired LR round, it usually eventually fires. That's because the firing pin finally hit a point on the rim where there is some priming compound behind it.

Now, and this is another reason why I am posting this question in a smithing section, maybe LR ammo has thicker rims than 22 mag ammo. If not, then the answer has to be inferior distribution of primer compound in LR ammo. I understand that 22 LR ammo manufacturers TRY to evenly distribute the compound around the rims, but as of now, based on long years of experience, I don't believe it.

Last edited by RAMS; 02-27-2011 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:01 AM
Hired Gun Hired Gun is offline
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What sort of percentage do you believe exists with uneven distribution caused misfires on the 22lr?

Being 22LR ammo probably outsells the 22mag ammo at least 1000 to 1 (my guess) wouldn't you think that maybe it has more of a chance to see a misfire reported causing the issue to look much larger than it really is?

I shoot far more 22lr ammo than all the others put together and it's been at least 35 years since I have had a dud in any rimfire. I shoot 22lr, 22WMR, and 17HMR. I wish I could say the same for factory centerfire ammo. I will not use factory ammo for self defense. Not so much due to duds but inconsistent or insufficient velocities.

Overall I believe the quality and reliability of all rimfire ammo has improved as manufacturing techniques have improved in spite of record high production levels.
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:05 AM
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I have to agree with Hiredgun. I find no particular problem with 22 LR ammo.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:01 PM
tomcatt51 tomcatt51 is offline
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I have to agree with Hiredgun. I find no particular problem with 22 LR ammo.
This seems typical of this thread. I do know the "duds" box at our range is always mostly .22 LR. I dumped it once out of curiosity. Quite a few had only one ding in the rim, the shooter didn't try again, and they fired in my gun. Others had multiple rim dings and wouldn't go bang in my gun either. I'd like to know what ammo you guys are using to get so remarkably few FTF's. I know our bullseye guys, during matches, shooting "good" ammo, have more alibi's from FTF's than some here claim to not have in many thousands of rds.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tomcatt51 View Post
This seems typical of this thread. I do know the "duds" box at our range is always mostly .22 LR. I dumped it once out of curiosity. Quite a few had only one ding in the rim, the shooter didn't try again, and they fired in my gun. Others had multiple rim dings and wouldn't go bang in my gun either. I'd like to know what ammo you guys are using to get so remarkably few FTF's. I know our bullseye guys, during matches, shooting "good" ammo, have more alibi's from FTF's than some here claim to not have in many thousands of rds.
I shot Bullseye for years and I agree there were many alibis for FTF. However, it was typically the same guys each time with the super light springs and hair triggers! My factory sprung Smith wheel gun and Mod 41 never once gave me an alibi. There are variables afoot that need to be factored before jumping to conclusions about the ammo. FTF of Ammo is a resultant symptom and the ammo is easiest to point blame at, but not necessarily or usually the problem in reality. Any gun I've had FTFs with terminated when the flaws of the gun were addressed, therefore exonerating the ammo.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:23 PM
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"Being 22LR ammo probably outsells the 22mag ammo at least 1000 to 1 (my guess) wouldn't you think that maybe it has more of a chance to see a misfire reported causing the issue to look much larger than it really is?"

Probably to some extent, yes.

"What sort of percentage do you believe exists with uneven distribution caused misfires on the 22lr? "

I'll take a WAG at 3% overall.

"Overall, I believe the quality and reliability of all rimfire ammo has improved as manufacturing techniques have improved in spite of record high production levels."

That would have been my thought as well, generally speaking. But look at what I found this morning:
.22 LR Ammunition Accuracy — 55 Ammo Types Tested Daily Bulletin

Since my allegations of poor quality by some makers is now beyond dispute, for me at least, I guess we'll just have to have different points of view on the subject. I still suspect poor priming compound distribution in .22LR ammo v. .22 mag ammo.

Anyway, thanks, Hired Hand and tomcatt51.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:30 PM
TANK78327Z TANK78327Z is offline
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Hired gun-- I must say 250,000 rounds is impressive, but to say most ftf's are due to dirty or improperly cared for guns is I believe a bit too much for me to believe.
NOW let me explain...I too have fired untold thousands of 22's over the last 45 years And I take very good care of all my guns, being a former gunsmith I have seen my share of abused or neglected firearms. I have seen many ftf.'s, not with just my guns, but with others also.With more and more of them in the last few years, a couple were do to a dirty gun, or even a bad one..but 98% were due to bad ammo..not all cases are primed the same..some are not primed at all !
I have had a good many golden remingtons ftf, I cut them open and guess what? no priming was present in the base of some of the cases , others were not evenly coated. Not to pick on just Remington..most of the ft.'s I have seen are in the cheaper lines of other major brands also. Winchester's bargain 22's are among the worst. The "premium" lines of these same companies 22's are usually much , much better with very few if any problems.
If you have not seen any quantity of 22 duds with your extensive experience you are the luckiest shooter I have ever heard of.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:44 PM
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"[MY] Mod 41 never once gave me an alibi." Hondo44.

I'll bet you weren't using Remington Target ammo. I used it all the time for practice, many years ago, in my long-barreled Master Gunsmith-tuned Mod 41 for practice. It was cheap yet reasonably accurate. But, boy, did it have a lot of FTF and FTE. I was shooting at only 15 to 25 yards, so maybe that's too short for poor primer and/or powder quality to show up as poor accuracy. Who knows?
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:14 PM
tomcatt51 tomcatt51 is offline
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I shot Bullseye for years and I agree there were many alibis for FTF. However, it was typically the same guys each time with the super light springs and hair triggers!
We shoot NRA bullseye which requires a 2 lb trigger pull for RF. No "hair triggers" which may or may not be related to hammer fall. The guys get FTF's in stock 41's and Rugers and Brownings.
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Hired Gun Hired Gun is offline
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Quote:
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"Being 22LR ammo probably outsells the 22mag ammo at least 1000 to 1 (my guess) wouldn't you think that maybe it has more of a chance to see a misfire reported causing the issue to look much larger than it really is?"

Probably to some extent, yes.

"What sort of percentage do you believe exists with uneven distribution caused misfires on the 22lr? "

I'll take a WAG at 3% overall.

"Overall, I believe the quality and reliability of all rimfire ammo has improved as manufacturing techniques have improved in spite of record high production levels."

That would have been my thought as well, generally speaking. But look at what I found this morning:
.22 LR Ammunition Accuracy 55 Ammo Types Tested Daily Bulletin

Since my allegations of poor quality by some makers is now beyond dispute, for me at least, I guess we'll just have to have different points of view on the subject. I still suspect poor priming compound distribution in .22LR ammo v. .22 mag ammo.

Anyway, thanks, Hired Hand and tomcatt51.
Poor quality now beyond all dispute. 3% dud rate?? That's 3 out of every hundred.

I quickly went over the said report of 55 different types of 22lr ammo tested and not one mention of any duds. I must of missed it. The report was on group sizes from one rifle. Didn't see anything on reliability issues. Please direct us to the part where they were having misfires.

I am confident with any of my personal rimfire firearms we could go buy anything you want off my local stores shelves and we could go 1000 rounds without a malfunction. By your figures I should have 30 rounds left over needing at least a second strike to go off. All I can say is not with any of my current rimfires.

High Standard Double 9
Henry Golden boy lever
Ruger MKII
Ruger 10/22
Ruger 77/22mag
Ruger Bearcat
Ruger Single Six
Remington 512
Remington 541S
S&W 617
Weatherby XXII 17HMR

I know I'm missing something but I'm confident they all will go 1000 without incident.
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:01 PM
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We shoot NRA bullseye which requires a 2 lb trigger pull for RF. No "hair triggers" which may or may not be related to hammer fall. The guys get FTF's in stock 41's and Rugers and Brownings.
Thanks for your experiences. The "super light springs" I reffered to hammer springs which help achieve desired trigger pull levels.
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:27 PM
RAMS RAMS is offline
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"I know I'm missing something but I'm confident they all will go 1000 without incident." Hired Hand.

Yes, you are missing something. It's this: CCI does not mean "overall". Your question to me had to do with the FTF % "overall", therefore my Wag of 3% was for all .22 LR ammo overall.

"I quickly went over the said report of 55 different types of 22lr ammo tested and not one mention of any duds. I must of missed it."

What you missed is this statement:“I got some amazing groups, and some which are, frankly, absurdly bad! This has re-enforced what I had experienced with 22 ammo in the past — that is being consistently inconsistent.”

What that statement and the actual test behind it means is that he disagrees with your belief that "Overall, I believe the quality and reliability of all rimfire ammo has improved as manufacturing techniques have improved in spite of record high production levels." Look again at the context of my reference to the test in the first place; it was in reply to your belief about today's .22 LR ammo quality, not just FTF. I tend to agree with you that today's quality is better OVERALL.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input, and I do believe that CCI is pretty good ammo.(My favorites are Mini Mags.) Your debate now is with TANK78327Z. He has, by actual observation, confirmed my suspicion about the poor quality of priming compound distribution in some .22 LR ammo. My original question has been answered.
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2011, 08:36 PM
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I have a Taurus revolver in which I've fired over 12,000 rounds with two FTF's. That was buying what ever bulk ammo was on sale on a given week. The factory trigger pull is a little heavier than I would like and probably heavier than what your using. One FTF fired the second time WITHOUT my touching it in any way, which indicates to me a dirty chamber. The other I gave up on after rotating it three times.
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:21 AM
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I've posted parts of this in the past- every year, the count grows. I've shot several hundred thousand rounds of .22LR ammunition: yellow jackets, vipers, stingers, mini-mags, X22-LRPP, X22-LRH, Federal 525 bulk packs. I've had winchesters that weren't lubed and some mini-mags that key-holed, years ago. I've spent years picking up Remington (mostly) ammo that people left on the ground with a primer dent that didn't fire the cartridge- most often from Ruger 10/22 rifles. I wipe them off and put them in boxes, and shoot them for fun, as freebies, at the end of the day. Out of several hundred thousand rounds, I've pulled apart at most a dozen rounds, that failed to fire- out of whatever I was shooting that day, be it a k-22, single six, diamondback, new frontier, marlin 39a, or a single-shot low-wall.

I think if a guy buys junk ammo, the ftf rate goes way higher. You get what you pay for. It helps to shoot the stuff out of a firearm of reasonable quality.

Last edited by 1x2; 03-05-2011 at 03:24 AM.
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22lr, bullseye, cartridge, gunsmith, k-22, nra, primer, remington, rimfire, ruger, sig arms, taurus, winchester

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