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  #1  
Old 03-19-2011, 07:49 PM
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The barrel retaining pin on revolvers looks to be the same diameter at both ends which leads me to believe it can be driven out from either side. Is that correct? Has anybody made a simple barrel vise for doing this?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:51 PM
dfariswheel dfariswheel is offline
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You need more than some sort of barrel vice.

This is something I wrote up to explain why people shouldn't try to rebarrel their own revolvers. It's long and may be more than you really want to know............

Changing a revolver barrel
A common question is “How do I change my revolvers barrel”?

Barrel work is a MAJOR pistolsmithing job and requires a considerable amount of very expensive equipment.
It involves a lot of steps that most people, including a surprising number of gunsmiths, don’t even know is required.
Failure to do the job correctly insures an inaccurate revolver at best, and a destroyed frame at worst.

The common do-it-yourself technique is to use “expedient” tooling techniques that are found in old gunsmithing books, and can still be found mentioned occasionally in gun magazines.
These methods range from wrapping rope around the barrel and using it with a stick to form a sort of tourniquet to unscrew the barrel, to the most common, which is to use a hammer handle through the frame window as a “wrench”.

The hammer handle method is to make up a pair of wood barrel blocks for the barrel.
The barrel is sandwiched between the blocks, and are locked in a shop vice. One writer said to “Tighten the vise until your eyes bugged out”.
A hammer handle or a shaped wooden 2x4 is shoved through the frame and is used as a “wrench” to twist the frame off.
The new barrel is fitted by hand filing the barrel shoulder until the front sight is at 12:00, the rear of the barrel is filed, if necessary, to provide a small gap between the barrel and the cylinder, and you’re off to the range to shoot your fresh re-barrel.

At least that’s how it’s touted as working.

In reality, when the hammer handle is used to turn the frame, one of two things happen:
Either the frame bends, or it breaks.
Revolver frames are a lot softer and easier to bend then most people suspect, and when the frame itself is used as a wrench, the frame will almost always bend.
Once bent, the frame is ruined even though it may still be shoot-able.
A bent frame will often have timing problems, and always has alignment problems. All of which cause inaccuracy and possible spitting of bullet metal.
Some owners who’ve tried this method of barrel work, are surprised that the factories do not have some kind of machine or device that will straighten the frame like bent car frames can sometimes be straightened.
The fact is, once bent the frame can never be repaired, and the best a factory can do is replace it.

The second thing that can happen is the frame will break.
If you look at a revolver frame just under the area where the barrel screws in, you’ll see that the frame is very thin in this area.
When the unsupported frame is unscrewed with the handle, it can crack right through the threaded portion.
While there are ways to weld the crack, the very high expense of having a top level custom pistolsmith/welder do it is very prohibitive, and is reserved for repairs to revolvers of high historical value, with NO guarantee that it will work.

The advice to hand file the barrel shoulder to align the barrel and to file the end of the barrel to provide the barrel/cylinder gap always ruins the barrel, since it’s near impossible to keep the surfaces perfectly square.
The result is tilted barrels due to uneven shoulders, and the end of the barrel not square with the cylinder.

When re-barreling a revolver, the first thing you need is a USABLE barrel.
This is much harder to get then you’d think, since a good percentage of barrels for sale at gun shows and on eBay are defective.
Major reasons for selling a used barrel are, the barrel was defective to start with, or it was damaged during removal, using the hammer handle method.
This damage may not always be readily apparent, and sometimes isn’t revealed until the pistolsmith attempts to install it.
Damage can run from tiny cracks in the forcing cone to pitted bores, to bent barrels.
I once saw a Diamondback barrel that someone had TWISTED, probably by attempting to unscrew it from the frame the wrong way.
This wasn’t apparent until, suspicious, I checked it with a straight edge.

Cracks in the forcing cone are common, and contrary to popular opinion, a cracked barrel is almost always toast.
Cracks in steel tend to continue to spread, even if you cut the cracked end off, since cracks are a sign of metal fatigue caused by blast damage.
Some gunsmiths will attempt to save a barrel with a cracked forcing cone by setting the barrel back, but this almost always fails, and the crack continues to spread forward.

Here’s a brief description of how a revolver barrel is changed correctly:
First, the barrel is locked in a special barrel vise.
I had two, one was a small scale copy of the larger hydraulic jack type vises that gunsmiths use to change out rifle barrels.
I used this one for older round barrels like the Colt Official Police.
The second vise was large Wilton vise with heavily modified jaws.
I had sets of custom machined brass or aluminum barrel inserts that were fitted to specific makes and models.
As example I had sets for Pythons, Trooper Mark III’s, King Cobras, shrouded Detective Specials, etc.
These inserts are installed around the barrel, then clamped in the barrel vise.

The action, or frame wrench, is installed on the frame.
This wrench is a universal revolver wrench that fits around the front of the frame. It is fitted with brand and type specific hard plastic inserts.
These inserts very closely fit the front of the frame around and below the barrel area to fully support the frame.
Again, I had inserts for specific guns. I had one set for Colt “E & I” frames, another set for “J” frames, another set for “D” frames, etc.
These inserts support the frame and spread the torque over a wider area to allow unscrewing the frame without over stressing the frame and damaging it.

With the frame and barrel tightly locked up, and with no “spring” to the setup, the barrel is unscrewed.

With the barrel off, the frame threads are cleaned up with brass brushes, solvent, and if necessary are “chased” with a tap to insure clean, uniform threads.
The replacement barrel is closely inspected and it’s threads are cleaned and chased with a die if necessary.

The barrel is test fitted to the frame to determine where the front sight is and how much material has to be removed to allow the front sight to be at 12:00 top-dead-center after being torqued in place.
How much to remove is largely a judgment call based on experience.
Using a lathe or a bench trimming device, that amount of metal is removed from the barrel shoulder.
The barrel threads are coated with anti-seize compound and the barrel is threaded on the frame, everything is relocked in the barrel vise and frame wrench, and the barrel is torqued in place.
If the barrel is torqued with insufficient torque the barrel will vibrate loose.
Too much and you run the risk of pressure dimpling or constricting the bore in the thread area, or even cracking the frame.

With the barrel in place, the barrel/cylinder gap must be set.
This is done with a special cutter tool that works down the bore.
A Tee-handle rod is put down the bore and a cutter tool is attached on the end. The rod is pulled outward and rotated, trimming the end of the barrel.
Care has to be taken to insure the end of the barrel is not scalloped from uneven pressure.

With the barrel/cylinder gap set to an ideal .005”, the forcing cone has to be re-cut.
The forcing cone is very misunderstood, and even some gunsmiths have no idea it has to be re-cut and gaged or that it must be gaged at all.
The critical dimension of the cone is not it’s “length” or taper, but the outer diameter of the mouth.
If the outer mouth is too big, the gun will be inaccurate. Too small and it’s inaccurate AND will spit bullet metal.

The same Tee handle tool is inserted down the bore, but this time a cone-shaped cutter head is attached.
The cutter heads come in various tapers, and you can set a barrel for exclusive use with lead bullets by using a longer taper, or for jacketed with shorter tapers.
The factories use a good compromise that works with everything.
The Tee handle is pulled outward, pulling the cutter into the forcing cone. The handle is rotated and the cutter head cuts the cone.
Again, care is taken to prevent scalloping and the progress is checked often with a special plug gage.
This drop-in plug gage gages the outer diameter of the cone. The difference between too large and too small is very small, so gauging is done often.
The cone cannot be "eyeballed", it has to be gaged.

After the cone is cut, yet another head is attached to the Tee handle, this time a brass cone-shaped lapping head.
Valve grinding compound is applied to the lap, and the forcing cone is lapped to a smooth finish.

After lapping, the barrel and frame is carefully cleaned of all metal chips and lapping compound, and the revolver is reassembled.
The last step is firing the revolver for function, and to check accuracy off the sandbags.

As you can see, there’s a LOT more involved than first thought, and all steps are CRITICAL.
Unless you’re willing to invest quite a bit of money in custom made tooling and spend the time learning how to properly use it, attempting a do-it-yourself re-barrel job is a very fast way to ruin a good gun.
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:14 PM
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dfariswheel I couldn't have said it any better, would have took two pages for me. I do barrel work and people think it is easy - WRONG.
I love working on S&W handguns, don't touch colt or any other brands. When I get back to work I'm going to buy a S&W 1911 and try my hand at it (maybe). I can do most machine work, but I don't have a mill. When I build the new house I will have one for sure. I can work most 686 -5 and newer down to a 3.5 lb double action with the use of Federal primers only. I won't do it for most people because they can't handle it that low. If I do a trigger job for someone I do it to the person - if you can figure what I mean. Thanks for the great post. I have been working on three gun since Turkey day of last year, but this leg has put the brakes on that till this last week. I have my 619 done, the 32mag. is 90% done, and the 38 super is 50% done. I ordered parts this last week and hope to get them by the end of this coming week.
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:26 PM
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dfariswheel,

Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfariswheel View Post
You need more than some sort of barrel vice.

(etc etc)

As you can see, there’s a LOT more involved than first thought, and all steps are CRITICAL.
Unless you’re willing to invest quite a bit of money in custom made tooling and spend the time learning how to properly use it, attempting a do-it-yourself re-barrel job is a very fast way to ruin a good gun.
Outstanding. I just purchased a 686-6 with the 6", and was thinking about picking up a 4 1/8" for non-range days.

While I figured it wouldn't be a simple shotgun barrel swap, I imagined all that would be needed was a set of barrel and frame tools (that much I got right).

Now, having said that, if I were to find a competent smith to do the first barrel swap and fitting correctly, from that point on it would really be just a question of getting the proper barrel and frame wrenches, would it not?

S/F

Antonio
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:29 PM
dfariswheel dfariswheel is offline
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Sorry, no.

Every time you unscrew and screw a barrel back in it turns just a bit farther in each time due to compression of the barrel and frame shoulders.
Within just one or two times the front sight is going to be turned in to the left and will no longer be aligned at 12:00 O'clock top-dead-center.
Each time you do it, the front sight will end up farther and farther over.

Once you break the torque of a revolver barrel you can't just screw the barrel back in because it will no longer be a tight enough fit. The barrel will vibrate loose and unscrew itself. So, you have to screw it tighter, and this mis-aligns the front sight.
Once you break the torque of a revolver barrel, you have to totally re-fit the barrel by turning it in one more thread and completely re-fitting everything.

There have been non-Dan Wesson custom changeable barrel revolvers, but these all had some kind of barrel retention device that didn't depend on torquing the barrel in place.
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:51 PM
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Great post ...really puts things in perspective..thanks for letting us handy people know when to leave things to the professionals and not screw up good guns trying to make them just a little better..
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Old 10-06-2013, 07:13 PM
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It is amazing to watch these threads and see how many people with no gun smithing knowledge want to take apart, tune, adjust and generally alter the way the factory engineers designed the gun to work. I always wonder if they do the same when they buy a new vehicle?
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:29 AM
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Dfariswheel, great post. The rope trick I once tried on a junker 1917 '06 enfield. Sufficed to say that as usual it didn't work. Frank
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:40 PM
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My worst case was a guy who wanted a different length barrel on a revolver and saw no reason to pay a gunsmith a lot of money just to unscrew the old barrel and screw on the other.

So, he put the gun on the ground and drove his truck tire on the barrel. He then used a tire iron wrapped with tape to try to unscrew the frame.
He just couldn't accept that the manufacturer didn't have some machine they could use to un-bend the badly bent frame.
When they refused to repair it, he mean-mouthed them to anyone who would listen about what a ****** company they were that wouldn't stand behind their guns.

When I was in watchmaking school I had an older German-American instructor.
He once said to me; "Ya, everbody tink he's a vatchmaker, car mechanic, und a gunschmidt".

Over a career you'll see some things that other people just refuse to believe that anyone could be that stupid.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:51 PM
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Kind of like the guy that starts a remodeling project and calls me up to finish it.Can't understand why I charge to tear it out and start over....
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:02 PM
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Barrel removal and replacement is absolutely NOT a job for anyone but an extremely skilled gunsmith or the factory. They are not held in by that pin. They are held (whether pinned or not) by an extremely TIGHT fit of the barrel shoulder to the frame, and often replacement requires adjustments to the barrel shoulder area so that the barrel cylinder gap and other critical parts can be re-set as a result of the fact that the tight fit required cannot be achieved again without going one more turn so that the sight will be straight up and down. This requires exceedingly precise measurements, together with the machining experience to remove just enough to require that the torque will be exactly what you need when it arrives at final position, so that it is torqued to the right tightness when the sight is straight up and down.

I am not trying to be mean or insulting, but am trying to save you from a really expensive fix. If you have to ask about the cross-pin in the barrel, you do not have the experience to remove the barrel and properly replace it.

EDIT: This was written after reading only Post 1 (yeah, I know), and I agree completely with the excellent information and advice in Post 2.

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Old 10-08-2013, 09:25 PM
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I'm surprised y'all are surprised. Midway, Graf's, etc, sell plenty of parts that require no gunsmithing. Little by little, either skills improve, or stuff gets broken. It's only a matter of time before someone tries to take it one step further. Now, the smart ones will do the research to see if they can handle it and have the right tools.

"I always wonder if they do the same when they buy a new vehicle?" Sure, ever seen the size of the aftermarket catalogs? Again, you start doing your own oil changes, then you do a brake job, and before you know it you are elbows deep in valves. None of this is rocket science, but you do have to do your homework.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:19 PM
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Barrel swaps with problems are not without problems when sending revolvers to the factory either. Many years ago I sent a 4" S series model 57 in through my local S&W LE sales rep to have a 6" barrel installed. When he bought it back to me it was a non pinned late model 57 with my S serial stamped on it and a 6" barrel installed. He also had a note from the factory service people indicating that the frame was damaged during barrel removal and they replaced it. Needless to say, I threw a fit.

Since then I have not sent anything for a barrel replacement. I still send stuff back to S&W for certain things. But barrel replacement isn't one of them. Being a certified armorer and gunsmith, I do most of my work myself.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
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Barrel swaps with problems are not without problems...
Wut he said (I think)...
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:51 PM
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This question is asked soo many times I don't know why there isn't a "sticky" for it.

Bruce
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:56 PM
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A sticky for this needs no text. All it needs is a title stating: "Do not try to rebarrel your own revolver UNLESS you are a highly skilled gunsmith with ALL the correct, necessary equipment AND requisite knowledge."

On second thought, I guess you could add text. something like "Here, there be monsters".
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:44 PM
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I've replaced about 25 revolver barrels. One thing missing (or at least I didn't notice it in my scan) is the application of a bit of heat on the frame where the barrel screws in. The correct tool can be made and resembles an old mechanic's ball joint separator. It fits over the yoke while the barrel is place in aluminum blocks (wood will work but tends to slip). Tighten barrel, add heat from propane torch and turn the yoke (making sure it is only on the solid part of the frame (not the cylinder opening). You will need a lathe to refit the barrel. No new threads necessary, but you will need to turn the end of the threaded part to allow another full turn (go very lightly - little bit at a time). You will need to shorten the barrel mouth by that same amount..and you may need to reform the throat a bit. Keep the flash gap as small as possible, but not so close that powder residue will cause binding. Use heat and the removal tool to re-tighten the barrel, keeping the barrel pin in mind if it even has on. One trick is to make a light index mark on the top of the frame and the barrel so they will line back up on barrel replacement. With a new barrel...it's just sighting as well as you can.
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:52 AM
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Thankfully I found this searching for advise on which action wrench I should get to install a barrel on my HE project.

Looks like I should start looking for a 'smith instead! Not near as simple as I thought! I figured the barrel install would be easier than setting the timing, etc but it's just as involved.

Thank you!
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfariswheel View Post
Over a career you'll see some things that other people just refuse to believe that anyone could be that stupid.
I've spent almost 20 years fixing things for other people (commo gear, appliances and air tools). I know EXACTLY how true that statement is! LOL!
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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I guess I got lucky, I had a 5 screw M-15 I bought at a gunshow and after the first 6 rounds I found out it had a cracked forcing cone. I went to a local gunshop that had a gunsmith and bought a used barrel. I replace the barrel touched up the rear of the barrel with a file. The gun still shoots good to this day. Second pistol was a M-28, I bought it to convert to .45 colt back in the day when Smith & Wesson didn't make .45 Colt revolvers. I pulled the barrel and cylinder and sent to a Gunsmith in Bear, Delaware I think. the reamed the barrel and cylinder for $80.00 and sent them back. I shot that pistol for a long time until Smith & Wesson came out with the 25-5 in .45 Colt. Only problem I had with that pistol was I had to shoot semi wadcutter bullets because factory ammo was longer than the .357 cylinder and I had to file the tips of the bullet to fit, and it really recoiled with that light 6 inch barrel. Understand this was a long time ago and I was a poor airman in the USAF and I had to make do with what I could afford.

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Old 05-07-2015, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appolo007 View Post
Hi. All the post about removing a barrel are useful and appropriate. Because you said that you've replaced about 25 revolver barrels, my concern is: Before I do the job (and force it to the wrong way), I Just would like to know: Which is the side (left or right) to unscrew a S&W 686 Barrel ? Nobody give a reply or mention on this. Thank you so much if you could give this information.
Your 686 barrel has right hand threads.....You might want to re-read the post by dfarriswheel.....he KNOWS what he is talking about
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Old 05-07-2015, 10:09 AM
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This is an old post but it has all you need to know.

How is a revolver barrel installed...
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Old 05-08-2015, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnonio View Post
Outstanding. I just purchased a 686-6 with the 6", and was thinking about picking up a 4 1/8" for non-range days.

While I figured it wouldn't be a simple shotgun barrel swap, I imagined all that would be needed was a set of barrel and frame tools (that much I got right).

Now, having said that, if I were to find a competent smith to do the first barrel swap and fitting correctly, from that point on it would really be just a question of getting the proper barrel and frame wrenches, would it not?

S/F Antonio
There are switch barrel rifles made by/for the bench rest crowd. However, those folks use special tools to just turn their barrels slightly more than hand tight. They're very carefully built that way with extremely close tolerances (that you're never going to see on production guns) that allow them to get away with that type of thing. I might note that they're frequently shortening and rechambering their barrels, getting new barrel shoulders each time. Since they use scopes, getting the barrel to index to a specific point isn't an issue.

That isn't the type of thing you want to try on a production handgun, particularly if you're trying to use it for defensive purposes. Revolver barrels must be tightened to much higher torque specs to stay where they belong.

I've also seen variations on the Savage system where the barrel doesn't have a shoulder against the receiver, but a barrel nut. The barrel is screwed into the receiver against a gauge and the barrel nut is tightened. Dan Wesson (and others-including S&W) have used a similar system on pistols. They use a barrel tube with threads on both ends, a shroud to surround the barrel and a muzzle nut to lock the barrel in place. I suppose if you wanted to shell out the money you could do that on your Smith. What you'd spend on that project would buy another gun-or two.

BTW, the S&W versions don't feature interchangeable barrels-at least from the factory.

Last edited by WR Moore; 05-08-2015 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 05-08-2015, 07:32 PM
kthom kthom is offline
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I've always been a pretty handy fellow, but as has been famously said, "A man's gotta know his limitations!" Sadly, finding those limitations for me has been a sometimes fairly expensive proposition. Another saying is, "Measure twice, cut once." That applies to more things than just carpentry!!
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2015, 04:23 AM
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drgbike drgbike is offline
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piece of pipe thru frame and a pipe wrench on barrel works for me . remember righty titey lefty loosey
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:44 AM
silentflyer silentflyer is offline
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Buy a Dan Wesson, problem solved
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  #28  
Old 05-14-2015, 08:53 AM
Big Cholla Big Cholla is offline
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Dragbike: Hey, I ran into one of your jobs just last week. Right down to the pipewrench marks on the barrel. A replacement barrel and a little babbit bar work realigning the frame got the old handgun back up and running. Thanks for keeping me in business. :-) .................
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  #29  
Old 05-14-2015, 10:50 PM
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Glad to be of service Big Cholla.
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  #30  
Old 09-16-2016, 06:07 PM
Riccati Riccati is offline
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I think if you had a barrel that indexed wrong too far to the left with not enough torque at proper index you could just put some embedding compound or JB weld on the threads screw it in, to the proper index let set for 24 hours, problem solved. You would never haft to worry about that barrel coming off for sure. Well, these threads were a fascinating read.
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Old 09-17-2016, 09:02 AM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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The most dangerous man in the world is the man that don't know what he don't know!! It's good to ask the right person to help with something like this. You're at the right place to get help. Heed the advice given or there could be extremely muddy waters ahead. And a bent frame or barrel or..well you get it.
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  #32  
Old 09-17-2016, 12:02 PM
Riccati Riccati is offline
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What I gather from reading this is that if you remove the barrel from a revolver without damaging it the probability of a different barrel fitting right without some technical fitting skills is small. Gunsmithing is kind of a pastime time for me I've never done a pistol barrel replacement, I came across a four-inch new highway patrolman barrel the crown and forcing cone look to be in mint condition, plug aged it, it measures towards the lower part of the gap. I've already fitted a new cylinder that turned out well didn't have any problems with that. I've got all the tools to remove a barrel properly, and quite a bit of the appropriate tools other than doing a barrel backup job don't have a lathe. That being said I may never do it, the gun does have some sentimental value I've had it for a long time. It appears from the serial number to have been produced around 1966 to 1967 and has quite a bit of holster wear on the bottom front end of the barrel. It's had enough ammo through it the center pin that goes down the middle of the extractor rod had warned short, and I replace that so it would open right. Patience is the source of all wisdom.

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