Hi.

I had my new 617 out today, going through Federal Bulk Pak ammo, which I shoot a ton of and have not had any problems.

I reloaded the cylinder, started shooting and Pow! Loud detonation and pieces of lead sprayed out the sides of the cyl.

Turns out, the round under the firing pin fired, but so did the round on both sides of it. It was the first shot after a reload so there was a live round on both sides of the first round fired. The rounds on either side of the one lined up with the barrel went off and the bullets just disintigrated on the edge of the barrel and the frame, and on the blast shield side you can see where the rounds shoved back out of the cyl and left marks on the blast shield. The brass left in those two cylinder bores was twisted and deformed.

The cyl. needed a little smack to get it open, but I don't see where it did any damage. Cleaned it up a bit, checked it out and kept shooting. I think it is ok. Still shot dead on and accurate. Barrel clean, cylinder rotates and locks up like it should.

My question is, what the heck would have lit off the 2 adjacent rounds? Is it because the 10 rnd. cyl. has the bores so close together? At first I thought the one round that the firing pin hit was loaded too hot (Federal error?) and the shock set off the other two?

This is a new one for me. Anyone out there heard of this happening on a 10 rnd. .22?

Thanks for any input.

Ss

Very weird I am glad you were not hurt, do you have pictures?

Very weird. I shot about 300 Federal bulk out of mine this weekend. Probably 5,000 through it since new. Never even suspected the possibility of volunteers going off out of sequence. What would they hit to detonate them?

Technically that wasn't a kaboom. Though at the time you probably thought it was. Kabooms cause guns to come unglued, as in destroyed and hopefully not the operator too! Never heard of that happening with a rimfire, but fortunately you have a very stout gun. Might want to run that by S&W's experts to see what they think..........

True, but on a rimfire, I think it is as close to a Kaboom as one would get!

I am stumped on what happened. I thought I'd put it out here just to see if anyone had heard of it happening.

Ammo was clean and good, Federal Bulk Pack, nothing to indicate a problem may arise.

At that point my Son and I had been shooting the gun for quite a while, with a few hundred rounds through it. Plus other rimfires all using the Bulk Pack ammo.

After the Boom, the cylinder needed a little bump by hand to open it due to the two rounds that lit off sprayed lead on the cyl. face and the edge of the barrel, and it was causing the cyl not to clear the barrel to open it up. Once it opened, I was able to scrape the lead away with my fingernail and a steel pick, Boresnaked the barrel, looked everything over, loaded it again and kept on shooting. No more problems. I didn't take pictures 'cause it cleaned up so quick, and I really could not find anything that left the gun messed up in any way. I did save the two rounds that went off by themselves. Strange looking, the brass it was like twisted and flattened and no sign of either bullet left in the cylinder in tact. They sprayed out all over. Just puzzling is all.

Another reason to wear glasses at the range and also to be sure the grip you use on a revolver keeps your fingers and hand away from the blast area of the cylinder.

I did get a few cuts on my left thumb, and lead sprayed on the bench we were shooting from and hit my Son's arm, he was off to my right...

The only thing I can think of is that the round under the firing pin fired and for some reason, with that 10 round cyl. having the bores as close as they are, the adjacent rnds. were touched off by something. The round that fired from the firing pin looked normal. It hadn't blown out and hit the other two.

May be one of those things that never happens again... I hope!

Thanks for the input.

Ss

I am glad you and your son are OK. I would talk to S&W and federal. I have never heard of a multiple detonation in a rimfire. I have never had a 22 lr that deformed brass, prob due to cylinder/ chamber containing it. If it was me I would want to know if it was the gun or ammo or both?? Please let us know. Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Multiple detonation (technically, sympathetic discharge) is not unheard of in rimfires, but is more common in lightweight revolvers that recoil more. Is there some type of a shoulder behind the head of those cartridges that would indent or deform the rim? The chance of this occurring is one of the reasons for the existence of the recoil shield; there have been cases of significant injury with the little NAA/Freedom Arms mini-revolvers that lack one.

Bob

Are there firing pin dingers (with raised edges) in the rim recesses from dry firing?

No, I always keep spent rounds in the cyl to dry fire.

I know it does sound impossible for it to happen, and I checked everything I could to see if perhaps something was touching the rims of those two but I found nothing. I was firing a bunch of CCI Stingers also without a hitch. With those having a bit more energy you'd think if something was going to light off the adjacent rounds the Stingers would have. It was the Fed. Bulk Pak rounds that went boom... Crazy.

I will send an e-mail to S&W and to Federal and see what I get back.

I'll take a pic of the two shells that went off and try to show where the two that lit by themselves left a mark on the blast shield. The mark is still there after I cleaned the gun. I will post 'em soon as I get a chance.

Thanks for readin' the post!

Ss

Wow this is alarming I have been letting me ten year old shoot my 617-6 with bulk, Walmart, Federal ammo. If you talk with S&W or federal please keep us updated. Glad to hear no one was hurt.

This is an issue for S&W and Federal to handle. Let them handle it. Could be that the ammunition has a problem. Less likely is that the revolver has a problem. Regardless, it merits their attention. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

I hope it doesn't turn out to be the ammunition. I have a mountain of that stuff.

Uh-Oh! There is a 10 year old out there somewhere hating me right about now!

Seriously, I shoot mainly all Walmart Federal Bulk Pack .22 ammo in all my rimfires. I've shot thousands of them, and never a hitch, and I'll continue to buy them and shoot them.

When this happened to my 617, my son and I had already shot a hundred or so Federals through it, and afterwards when I cleaned it up and inspected it, we put a couple hundred more through it... from the same box of ammo. Shot a couple hundred CCI Stingers and Mini Mags too with no problems.

I'm not worried about the gun having a problem.

I took some pics of what the rounds looked like.

I was wrong posting that the rounds that went boom were on either side of the round under the firing pin. Upon close insp. with a 4x loupe, I see the really twisted round has a firing pin strike mark on it. So, that was under the pin and went off, setting the round next in line off and that one left the mark on the blast shield.

I have no idea what would have caused the round hit with the firing pin to deform as it did.

Maybe someone looking at the pics has seen something like this before.

I don't mean to go on and on with this thread, but it is puzzling to me what happened, and it may just be one of those unexplainable "things".

I will keep shooting the 617 without worry, and using the Federal Bulk Pack ammo since nothing jumps out at me pointing to a problem.

Ss

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I am glad you have taken the time to add information and pictures. This type of thread is valuable, addressing a safety issue.

The edges (or corners) on the extractor seem to be protruding slightly into some of the chambers. Anybody notice that, or care to comment?

Could it possibly be that there was a fault in the firing pin round and the gases that twisted the case and excaped to the rear on both sides setting off the adjacent rounds?

SWCA 892

Well it's a pretty safe bet you were not using reloads-could be a problem with the 10 shots????? Look at the sharp edges on the recoil shield where the cases back up against-picture 3-maybe it's that. In any event keep us posted.

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Forum consigliere

case head failure and jet of gas detonated next round?????

I contacted Federal Cartridge Co., left a voicemail. They called back the next day and want me to send in the spent shells so their metal dept. can insp. and try to figure what happened.

They were truly concerned. I'll send 'em in and see what they find. The man on the phone said he'd let me know what they find.

He also said that Federal would replace my ammo. I didn't have the nerve to ask whether he meant the whole Bulk Pack box... or just those two rounds.

I'll post back what they say.

If nothing else from this thread, take away the reminder that no matter what caliber you are shooting, you never know when something out of your control could go wrong. Always best to have safety glasses on and proper hold on the gun, and also who is standing perhaps too close to the shooter should something like this ever happen again, 'cause fragments of lead did spray out the sides of the gun and hit what was close to me.

Take care!

Ss

From seeing the pictures my guesses are the extractor may have cut into the side of the cartridges and/or a case head ruptured causing this all to happen. Either way I would have that extractor replaced.

Ammo comp tend to be sensitive amount problems. I contacted Rem on a 30-06 that would not go off. I wanted to give them the cartridge, and the other last two unfired cartridges. I figured they may avert difficulties. They were pleasant and sent me a coupon for a few boxes of ammo even though I explained that there ammo had always performed perfect for me. Federal may find a problem that will prevent a major problem in the future. Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

There is a possibility the bushing could have moved forward and hit 3 cartridges at the same time. If this is the cause, I'd contact S&W and have your gun looked at.

Look at the firing pin bushing and see if it's working loose. Dry fire it with the cylinder open and look if the bushing moves forward.

Just a note, that I don't have a 10 shot here to prove my theory. If the bushing is wide enough, then that's a good guess what has occurred.

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NRA Benefactor Member

In the picture of the frame, the aperture for the hand extends up into where the edge of the adjacent cartridge apparently was.
Could the hand, in the trigger fully to the rear position, have pertruded against the rim? That would be a gun, not ammunition, problem.

Bob

This seems possible looking at the pic of his recoil shield. I have had one 10 shot 617 in my hands that had a loose firing pin bushing but all it did was tie up the cylinder and prevent it from rotating.

Thanks again for all the input!

500, No the firing pin bushing is still seated well and is tight.

The round that was next to the firing pin round is the one that went boom. Looking at it closely under a 4x loupe, there were no marks on the rim of that round where something may have struck it. The brass did split open nearly the length of the cartridge, and looked like on the opposite side it was fixin' to split there as well.

When that went off it looks like that is what sent a jet of gas around the blast shield, and into the chamber under the firing pin forcing the rim of that round into the cylinder as the pic shows.

The extractor does look like the edges are protruding into the chambers on the pic, but the star does have "play" in it and will rotate in and out of the chamber entrance a bit, but when you push a round into the cyl, it aligns the star and nothing is dragging on the brass. All my Smith revo's stars look and move the same way.

Sorry, I do feel kind of funny with the thread going on and on, but it bugs me not knowing what the heck happened, and all of your input into this sure helps a person look at it from a multitude of angles, which all go into the knowledge bank that I and others can use for future issues... should any arise.

I sent the bad rounds to Federal and will post what they find when they get back to me.

Thanks again!

Ss

I want to throw out one last bone about the extractor. The cartridge marked "next round" had a pretty obvious mark on it that looks just like the extractor ate into it. So with the star that far off this looks like it could happen again any time. To support my theory I'm throwing a little Taurus 94 mud in everyone's eyes. Note how the extractor star is darn near uniform in all the charge holes. So one cartridge, maybe an overcharge, knocks the extractor star into the "next round" and cuts into it just a little, the burning gas ignites the "next round"'s powder, which somehow sets off the third cartridge. Dominoes.



I'm done now, that is all my two cents. And I did throw the bull in everyone's eyes...

Kaboom, I thought that was a Glocktalk term, certainly childish.

Well I've experianced 45ACP case web Rupture in a 1911 and I tell you KABOOM is not a childish term, it's Reality!

Certainly an interesting thread, Thanks for posting

Keep us posted

I said I'd post when I found out anything about what may have caused the .22 to "go off" by itself in the next chamber on my new 617.

Happy to say, I have since fired... has to be around 1000 rounds of Federal Bulk Pack, as well as CCI Blazer Bulk Pack without so much as a hiccup from this fantastic revolver.

I sware the trigger and action just gets smoother the more I shoot it. Also, this beauty is crazy accurate.

I did get an answer from Federal, after sending them the rounds pictured in earier posts. They sent me a Bulk Pack of the .22 ammo for free with their appoligies for having a problem with their product, and about a month later I got a letter from them appreciating my sending the bad rounds back to them, and I suppose they really had no answer as to what caused the round to go off, as they appologized for my having a problem with their product and explained how they strive to have top quality control, and how things like this are not common to their products. It wasn't just a form letter, because they did refer to my particular situation.

I was glad to get "some" sort of an answer from them. Shows me it wasn't forgotten about.

Probably just one of those things that happens with no explanation for it.

I'm satisfied. I have no problems using their ammo, and I have no concerns with the 617.

One thing, as I stated in an earlier post, from what happened, it is a good reminder to wear safety glasses and pay attention to what/who is near you when shooting. When something goes wrong as happened here, and luckily it was only a .22, there is no warning. No time to "get away" or duck. Being prepared and aware at all times will save somebody getting hurt.

Ss

I'd say a case head rupture set off the next round. Reason for the recessed case head cylinder. But I just drive the truck.

I had always thought that the recessed cylinders on my old M17 and M18 were a bit of overdesign.

This thread has caused me reassess that idea.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Just an idea, since you fired quite a few rounds before this happened, is it possible the rounds didn't go into the cylinders far enough, and when you fired the gun, the adjacent rounds were forced back into the shield area causing them to ignite. ~Just an idea~.
augy

This is my two cents. After looking at the photos i believe what happened is. The revolver was getting hot due to firing alot. Something was wrong with the round being srtuck by the firing pin(hotter than usual load). As that round fires and ruptured it caused the second chamber to cook off & fire due to the chambers being close together. A very unlikely thing to happen. 22 ammo is not loaded very accuratly compared to centerfire ammo.

Well, I figured it out. Go back and look closely at the pictures posted. The 617 has the Internal Lock-that's what caused it.

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Forum consigliere

I'm looking forward to any ideas that come from your emails to S&W and Federal. I have shot many boxes of Federal 550 bulk with no problems, it's my go too plinking round. I have a K22 Model 18 that really likes them. The K22 seems to have a time ejecting spent cases, but the Federal works like a charm. Please keep us posted, this is a very interesting occurrence. Thank you for posting.

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Endeavor to persevere. <><

Did Federal or S&W ever get back to you Sevenshooter? Found this thread on a search.

That would be my guess also.

Sevenshooter,
After examining all the photos you provided and your description of the incident I would conclude:
1) this problem was not caused by the revolver
2) you had a hotter than normal or double charged round which cooked off the adjacent rounds.
I have almost 20,000 rounds through my 10 shot S&W 617 using either Federal or Remington bulk pack ammo. Fortunately I have not encountered any similar issues. I have experienced split brass cases using Remngton Golden bulk pack ammo in one of my 1911's 22 conversion unit and have stopped using that ammo in the unit.

I would guess a case head failure too. This was an interesting thread. I missed it way back when so I am glad it was revived. I have shot a long time and never seen or heard of this type of malfunction. Interesting.

Cajunlawyer... ()

There's a lesson in this for all of us.

Even a .22 can turn a good day into a bad day.

Eyes and ears. Every time.


We just added a 617 to our little collection. Love it! Glad this was an isolated incident.

Well, maybe I have the start of a theory.

My first wild guess is that there was a trail of powder between the bullet and shell of the “Next” bullet. (It is why they waxed the ends of the cylinders of black powder revolvers).

Looking at picture 2 of 4, the open connection between the recesses of the two shell heads focused the backward blast back toward the first shell giving it a nice place to relieve the second burst of pressure down the barrel. (A good thing?) (Which might give me a reason to buy one of those -- after inspecting the other end of the cylinder/barrel interface).

So… By the numbers (I am sticking my neck out hoping some gunsmith here will correct me)

1. The bullet under the firing pin is collapsed. It’s own pressure would only expand it outward. So I must assume it collapsed when the next shell fired slightly after it had fired.

2. Naturally I assume the bullet from the next shell hit the edge of the barrel delaying the lowering of pressure. The shell split and the gasses went both directions. The gasses that went backward around the rim of the bullet seems to have bent down the rim of the “firing pin” shell then went down the barrel.

(It would be nice to see a photo of the front of the cylinder when closed - so we could estimate how small an opening the slug had to squeeze out).

3. When the hand rotates the cylinder -- It pushes on the ratchet surfaces on the extractor. How much play is in the extractor star when pushed sideways inside one cylinder with a wood stick (or toothbrush handle - something that will not scratch).
But naturally I assume the extractor mark on the “next” bullet are cosmetic -- (meaning the case is not punctured at that point).

(If I were you I would fire the rest of those .22 bullets out of a rifle, or maybe semi auto pistol. Or maybe a revolver with lots of room around the ends of the cylinder - six shot? Something with no deflection of hot gasses and room for neighboring rimfire bullets to fly out unobstructed - if such exists?)

(legal advice statement - I am old and almost senile - and my opinions are not to be trusted. Try to sue me and I will drool on the desk in court).

Let me make my last entry a bit more clear.

For a flashover to occur the hot gasses or a powder trail must exist to the chamber beside the chamber being fired.

Let me try another beginning. The bullet was stuffed in with a little powder around it or it was loose.

One more time. The barrel begins where the cylinder ends. Hot gasses bouncing off the barrel back into the next cylinder can be a bad thing.

One more time: The flash gap can ignite the shell beside it if certain conditions exist. If that happened I would expect to see exactly what you see.

However I have never heard of it happening except in black powder revolvers. Maybe the head on that 22 bullet was loose? (The one beside the one under the hammer)

Yes, the more I think about it, it sounds like a bullet a bit loose in the shell.

Let me be the frist to coin the phrase "loose bullet flashover".
(made a little more likely with the holes so close together)

My guess is that there may have been a bullet in the forcing cone from a dud round. Next round is fired, two bullets slam together. Large volume of gas escapes through the cylinder gap, but before it can do so it enters the adjacent chambers. This gas, combined with increased recoil, slams two shells back into recoil shield hard enough to go off. The empty shells are wrinkled, which to me seems to indicate there was gas entering from the front. Had the rounds fired without this gas burst into chambers causing it, they should be round, right? And if the gas caused the shells to dent inward before they fired, it would be likely they would not straighten up when the primer and charge fired.

I wonder what happened on the last shot from the previous cylinderful? Was the last trigger pull just a click and thought to have been on an empty shell but was not? A gunsmith might be able to confirm whether there is a bulge in or near the forcing cone.

Looking at your picture 4 of 4, the barrel is really thick -- where it would meet the cylinder when closed. It probably covers a lot of the cylinder hole beside the one lined up with the barrel.

Someone braver than me should loosen up some 22 bullets and try to duplicate what happened to you.

I like your theory because it accounts for the "next round" having both expansion splits and indentations near the end.

However I am clinging to mine because the shell under the hammer was bent inward on the rim corner beside the "next" shell. My theory accounts for gasses going that way slightly after the first shot fired.

Any possibility there was crud (unburnt powder) under the extractor star, in which case the extractor may not have been sitting flush and the recoil of the fired round causing the extractor star to actually hit the rims of the two adjacent rounds therby setting them off?
Basically the extractor itself acting like multiple firing pins.

I have seen several cases of "sympathetic discharge" from .22 rim fire revolvers. I agree with RED9 that all have been in cheap lose "Saturday Night Specials". The theory was that the cylinder was so lose that the rounds struck the rear of the gun during recoil and discharged. In the ones that I have seen, the projectiles exited from the cylinder. They could easily be identified because of a scalloped nose from striking the frame as they went on their way. I had one case in which a female was dead from two bullet wounds to her chest. Her boyfriend was in the room at the time that she was shot. He claimed that they had had an argument and that she took the gun and shot herself. The LEOs were sure that it was a homicide and that he had shot her because she had two fatal GSW's. When the projectiles were recovered, one had the scalloped nose, confirming "sympathetic discharge" and possibly confirming his story, OR, he shot her and was very surprised that two rounds discharged. He was acquitted, but shot to death by his ex-wife a month later.

medxam

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Doc Garrett
Dead Man's Doctor

Nope, that does not account for the rim being smoothly bent toward barrel. Everything would be crushed backward if you guys were right.

Maybe the back end of the barrel needs to be tapered like the old black powder revolvers. Maybe they have reached the limit of how many rounds can be in a 22 cylinder. 10 might be too many without tapering the back of the barrel.

That's the first chain fire I've ever seen, with a cartridge gun.

I am no expert, and I'm just throwing in one more opinion based on a little knowledge and a recollection of history. I think that charlix nailed it. Historically, the reason for recessed case heads was a fear of exactly this, and if you look at the rear of the 617 10-shot cylinder, you see that that design protects the shooter, more or less, but does nothing to prevent adjacent detonation. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I will explain how that's not true, but that's what it looks like so far. Guess my old 6-shot K22 isn't as outdated as I thought.

Charlix has identified the cause. Rimfire ammunitions have a long history of casehead separations, it's why the cylinders on the 22 caliber revolvers are still recessed today.

Unfortunately with the 10 shot cylinder there isn't a complete circle enclosing the caseheads, so there is a "burn path" for the gas jet to adjacent chambers. Since these gas jets are quite hot it causes the adjacent round to cook off. It's one aspect of the 10 shooters that I find a bit problematic. Good news is that rimfire ammunition today suffers casehead separation at a rate that is probably 1/100 to 1/1000 that of 100 years ago. That is a result of significant improvements in metallurgy. Basically, I think this is likely a 1 in 10 year event and it may be 1 in 100 years.