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  #1  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:51 AM
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Default Spring Kit for 642

Apex J-Frame Duty/Carry Spring Kit – - Guns & AmmoGuns & Ammo

This from Guns and Ammo magazine. Anyone do this or have it done? I'm an idiot, so I'd pay someone to do it, but was wondering, once done, are you happy you did it? Supposedly takes the pull from 12 lbs to 8 lbs? Any experiences, good or bad, out there?
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:18 AM
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You have to be careful about changing springs without smoothing the working parts to reduce friction in proportion. My stock M38 requires a full power mainspring but my "duty tune" M640 will run with a SLIGHTLY lighter spring.
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:08 AM
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I'd be very reluctant to change anything on a small self defense gun. The last thng you want is a surprise when things go bad and you're in panic mode.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:38 PM
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The Wolff spring kit for J-frames reduces the mainspring from a whopping 8 pounds to a low, low 8 pounds. In other words, don't change the factory mainspring.

You can reduce the rebound spring from the factory 18 pounds to 15 pounds without compromising reliability. Don't go lower.

The real improvement in J-spring trigger pull is in smoothing the action. While this can be done by an advanced amateur, it can be misdone by some folks who call themselves professionals, so be sure you know who's doing the work. If you can afford it, send it back to S&W for a Master Action Job. I have one gun that had this done, and it makes a 14 pound pull feel like 8 pounds, and it always goes "Bang".

Buck
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:58 PM
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Just bought a S&W642 NL from Jet's for a very good price. The trigger pull was very heavy so it went immediately to my long time Smith for the Apex kit. and a polish job. Haven't gotten it back as yet. He suggested the polish job saying I would probably bring it back later for it anyway.
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Old 06-21-2011, 02:55 PM
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I learned my lesson when it comes to reducing the power of the rebound slide spring in a J-frame.

Some years ago, before I decided to become a revolver armorer myself, I had the former revolver armorer check out a new 642-1 I'd bought. He smoothed it up, inspecting tolerances and removing a couple burred spots.

I also picked up a kit of reduced power springs and we tried them in my 642. The lightest spring in the kit wouldn't allow the trigger to recover forward. (Not good.) The next heavier one allowed for trigger recovery most of the time. (Still not good.) The heaviest of the lighter springs allowed for consistent trigger recovery. So, thinking we were good to go, that's the one that remained in my new off-duty 642. I began carrying it and doing a lot of training & practice with it.

Some time later, after I'd knocked the rust off my DA revolver skills and had acclimated myself to the little gun, I started to notice that my trigger finger was able to "outrun" the trigger's recovery when doing fast shot strings. Uh oh. Basically, the trigger wasn't returning forward fast enough for it to be recovered and ready for my next shot when my finger was ready for the next trigger press when doing rapid shot strings.

So, I replaced the aftermarket rebound slide spring with the stock factory spring. Now there was no way I was able to "outrun" the trigger's recovery. The recovery was consistently brisk and firm. Since I'd been spending a lot of range time with the gun, now I could feel the difference between the aftermarket and factory springs when it came to the speed and firmness of the trigger's recovery. No more "target" springs for me in one of my defensive guns.

For a dedicated "target/range" revolver I'd have no problem lightening spring tension ... but not for a revolver which was going to be kept, carried and potentially used for dedicated defensive purpose. Not anymore.

Another thing to consider is that while a lighter spring may offer sufficient power when a particular gun is clean and it's being used under "ideal" circumstances, the lighter spring may lack the necessary power to function the gun under "less than ideal" circumstances. Think of how the parts may become "gummed up" from fouling, congealed lubrication or unexpected environmental contaminants (like when dropped in the dirt, sand, ocean waves or a stream).

A lighter spring which may work well enough under perfect conditions may fail under bad conditions.

Why risk it with a dedicated defensive revolver?

J-frames have stout coil main springs and rebound slide springs which result in rather heavy trigger pulls. The small, shortened grip and trigger reach don't help.

That time I discovered I was able to "outrun" my trigger on my 642 when doing fast shooting drills made an impression on me, though, and I decided I'd rather put up with the heavy springs and work to "improve" myself. Yes, some injuries and minor nerve damage in one hand made it more difficult than I'd have wished ... but it eventually paid off.

I remember another time many years ago when I sent another revolver (of another make) off to a well known and respected gunsmithing company for a "duty tune". It was a medium-framed 4" revolver which I often carried off-duty.

Part of the tune package was a reduced power mainspring. After voicing my hesitation about possibly compromising the inherent reliability of being able to ignite any brand of .357 Magnum ammunition I may be using, and being told that good quality ammunition ought to work in it afterward ... as soon as the gun was returned (with the lighter spring), I immediately replaced it with the factory mainspring, anyway. I'd heard of too many other examples of similar guns sometimes failing to fire once lighter mainsprings had been installed, and I just didn't feel like taking the chance since it was an off-duty weapon.

So, while I may inspect and "deburr" new J-frames I buy for carry usage nowadays, I stick with the stock factory springs.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:06 PM
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I started to notice that my trigger finger was able to "outrun" the trigger's recovery when doing fast shot strings.
What kind of split times were you shooting while you were "outrunning the trigger"?
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:12 PM
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So, are many of you saying, in my no-tech interpretation(s), that while you MAY reduce the trigger pull somewhat that a myriad of other problems may develop?
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:30 PM
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What kind of split times were you shooting while you were "outrunning the trigger"?
I wasn't using a timer for the shot strings at that time. It wasn't what many competitive shooters might think of as "fast", though.

I normally run 5 shots in less than 3 seconds when I'm shooting 1-handed (hip/belt line) for speed and accuracy at 3-5 yards, though. Sometimes faster. I'm shooting for accuracy and controllability, though, not sheer speed. The best I've been able to achieve is an oblong hole consisting of 4 shots with the 5th hole not quite touching the 4-shot hole. I'm not a competition shooter.

It stands out in my memory as a weird feeling. I wasn't trying to function the trigger so much faster that it felt like I was short-stroking it. I wait until I can feel the trigger under my finger before I begin my press of an intended followup shot.

Instead, it was more like my finger had recovered and I was ready to press the trigger again, but I couldn't feel the trigger under the pad of my finger for another split second. It had that blurred, out-of-time effect where it felt like my finger and the trigger were moving at different speeds during recovery, with the trigger lagging behind. For whatever reason I can't remember feeling that effect when using the heavier factory spring.

Might've just been the way my timing and technique was falling into place that range session, but it definitely got my attention. I prefer the trigger to run as fast as my finger.

Am I right in remembering that some of the skilled DA revolver shooters of earlier years used to use heavier than stock rebound slide springs to make their triggers recover faster? If so, I wonder how many times they bent or broke a rebound slide frame stud when using such a stronger spring?
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:45 PM
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So, are many of you saying, in my no-tech interpretation(s), that while you MAY reduce the trigger pull somewhat that a myriad of other problems may develop?
I wouldn't presume to say anything against what an experienced, good gunsmith who does a lot of work on revolvers might be able to accomplish with a given gun (even clipping a spring or using an aftermarket spring). I'm not a gunsmith, just a user and armorer.

It's just that when you start to lighten hammer and trigger speed and power by just using lighter springs, you start to lose that "margin of safety" the factory builds in with their heavier springs when it comes to consistently igniting harder primers and/or allowing the trigger to recover under normal (or not so normal) conditions.

There's nothing to say the typical owner might not run into the occasional hard primer, anyway, you know ... even when using the stock mainspring. How much more likely might it occur if an even lighter spring is used? Who can say? If a bit of congealed fouling or grit unexpectedly works its way into the trigger & rebound slide, will the lighter rebound slide spring be able to overcome the unexpected resistance as well as the stronger factory spring? Again, who can say?

In my case, I like to maximize the odds in my favor as much as possible when it comes to using my own J-frames for carry usage.

As a factory revolver armorer who inspects, helps maintain and repairs J-frames owned and used by folks as off-duty and secondary weapons, I wouldn't want to place myself in the position of installing springs of less power than factory springs, and then having someone experience a spring-related functioning problem when they actually needed to use the gun for defensive purpose. That's all.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:21 PM
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Might've just been the way my timing and technique was falling into place that range session, but it definitely got my attention. I prefer the trigger to run as fast as my finger.
Much of the issue is learnining to get your finger off the trigger so it can rebound. It's too easy to hold the trigger back as the gun is recoiling (using your trigger finger as part of your grip for recoil control) and then letting the trigger push your finger forward. That does require a heavier rebound spring.

I believe the only time really heavy rebound springs are used is for exhibtion (speed) shooting. One of the guys I shoot with has shot (at the chrono station) Jerry's gun (625) and he said the trigger pull felt like what the rest of us mere mortals run.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tomcatt51 View Post
Much of the issue is learnining to get your finger off the trigger so it can rebound. It's too easy to hold the trigger back as the gun is recoiling (using your trigger finger as part of your grip for recoil control) and then letting the trigger push your finger forward. That does require a heavier rebound spring.
Right you are. I rid myself of the tendency to hold the trigger back some years ago when I learned to stop "shooting to reset" with various pistols. I went back to getting my finger off the trigger so it could recover unimpeded by my finger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcatt51 View Post
I believe the only time really heavy rebound springs are used is for exhibtion (speed) shooting. One of the guys I shoot with has shot (at the chrono station) Jerry's gun (625) and he said the trigger pull felt like what the rest of us mere mortals run.
I'm not surprised the stock spring is firm and fast enough to suit Jerry's trigger technique.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:44 PM
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Right you are. I'm not surprised the stock spring is firm and fast enough to suit Jerry's trigger technique.
Nope, lighter than stock like the rest of us mere mortals run.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:00 PM
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Nope, lighter than stock like the rest of us mere mortals run.
Then I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that his gun was run with stock springs and it felt the same as guns being used by other folks, albeit it was being run hard in the hands of a master wheelgunner.

I have no issue with folks running modified guns for target, competition and range enjoyment. Not my guns and not being used by me for defensive carry. Gaming guns are a different matter. It's when a revolver is kept for dedicated defensive and service-type use that I have some hesitation for cutting springs or using lighter, reduced power springs.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:15 PM
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I just put the Apex kit into my 640. I'm hoping everyone understands this kit is a dedicated parts replacement made to work together in conjunction with each other. This isn't a put in which parts you feel like kind of kit, nor is it a spring selection that can be changed out for a different one from elsewhere. You add the very carefully selected pair of springs and you replace the firing pin for one that is just slightly longer to insure primer ignition from said springs. I don't have a trigger pull scale but it does feel noticeably easier to pull the trigger while still being heavy enough to not have a feeling of being dangerously light, but that will be subjective to any who try this kit. My only complaint is that the trigger return does have a funny almost mushy feel to it. It's not dragging and it doesn't alter function for the negative. It just doesn't feel as smooth as the trigger pull. I plan on trying various reloads and maybe a few factory options, but I can tell just by observing it in action that it should thwack that primer pretty good and I will be able to better aim while pulling the smoother lighter trigger. So far, I approve.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:29 PM
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It's when a revolver is kept for dedicated defensive and service-type use that I have some hesitation for cutting springs or using lighter, reduced power springs.
Your call. Think you need to run any "pick up" ammo? Like there's going to be random ammo on the ground you're going to use? All it needs to do is run with what's in your gun or in your pocket.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:39 PM
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I just put the Apex kit into my 640. I'm hoping everyone understands this kit is a dedicated parts replacement made to work together in conjunction with each other. My only complaint is that the trigger return does have a funny almost mushy feel to it. It's not dragging and it doesn't alter function for the negative. It just doesn't feel as smooth as the trigger pull. I plan on trying various reloads and maybe a few factory options,
Randy Lee, Apex Tactical, engineers good stuff.

As you lighten the pull you feel more mechanical stuff, particularly if you did no other work.

Try some CCI/Speer ammo. They have the hardest primers and are the "worst case" test.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:02 PM
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Your call. Think you need to run any "pick up" ammo? Like there's going to be random ammo on the ground you're going to use? All it needs to do is run with what's in your gun or in your pocket.
"Pick up" ammo? Really? Not something I ever anticipated or considered (unless it might be from another cop's belt in an extreme situation when I was working).

I just want my guns to run with whatever factory ammunition I may be using at the time, and I don't always have the same ammunition at hand. Thus, I want to make sure any primer sensitivity or QC issues are mitigated as much as possible by keeping the springs at normal tension.

I don't have a single consistent brand, bullet weight or production lot of defensive ammunition I run in my various J's (or other wheelguns, for that matter).

Sure, while I have some loads I generally prefer more than others, given a choice, sometimes availability determines my choice more than personal preference. Sometimes it's been available as issued ammo, but most of the time it's been purchased over the counter at my own expense (as authorized).

Sometimes the Speer 135gr +P GDHP load has been hard to get over the counter, so to speak, and using it in quantities sufficient for training & practice has been problematic (although I've learned my agency is now able to order it through a vendor and we should be getting some later this year).

When we used to order cases of the Rem 158gr LHP +P load, or the similar Win load (38SPD), I was able to use them quite a bit. Now I have limited quantities of each remaining. They aren't readily found on the shelves locally, so I'd have to order them through the nearest Rem or Win LE distributor to get some sort of deal, cost-wise.

Now that a local Win LE distributor can get the 20/rd (commercial) or 50/rd (LE) boxes of the new 130gr +P PDX1, I may place an order for a case of it and start using it more often, doing some further test firing in my various J's, looking for case tolerance issues, QC, bullet pull, etc. I had 1 round of it out of a 20/rd box have a case that was distorted to the point that it wouldn't chamber all the way in a cylinder. The distortion was subtle, but enough to cause a problem when I was trying to load it.

I've used the older Speer 125gr +P GDHP load, the Rem 125gr +P GS load and a couple of the Federal loads when availability has made them the only viable options, too. (The Rem GS loads are becoming pretty expensive OTC, aren't they?)

My ammo preferences can vary with production lots, too.

If my only concern was perhaps losing points in a competition, or experiencing a stoppage on a target/leisure shooting range, I'd not be as concerned about spring weight and power.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:06 PM
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If my only concern was perhaps losing points in a competition, or experiencing a stoppage on a target/leisure shooting range, I'd not be as concerned about spring weight and power.
I'm with you about keeping the springs strong enough for the job at hand: heavier for defense use, but also never so light as to cause malfunctions.

Even in competition, emphasizing reliability can pay off. A missfire from a light strike or a sluggish trigger return really "puts me off my game."
I won my class in a state IDPA championship because the guy favored to win (he actually shoots faster than I) had four failures to fire during the entire match, while I had none. I beat him by less than one second total score. You do the math.

For the person who asked about split times to outrun the trigger. In a K frame, I can start to feel the slack with a 12# rebound spring below about .2 splits, and seem to feel a 13# around .15. So I run 14# rebound springs for my confidence factor. YMMV.
Mr Miculek advocates a strong return spring, and has made an offhand remark he uses up to 18# in speed exhibitions. Since everybody and their brother asks his advice at matches, I just listen to his comments to others and don't bug him. When dealing with the unreal speed of some of the masters (when I'm running the timer) I try to not screw up the procedure and to stay out of their way. The first time I SOed one shooting "6 and 6" from a Bianchi barricade, I saw the quick 6 from one side, the swing to the other side, and 6 more. From the back, I never saw the reload, and it seemed to add no time to the move to the other side.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:14 PM
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For the person who asked about split times to outrun the trigger. In a K frame, I can start to feel the slack with a 12# rebound spring below about .2 splits, and seem to feel a 13# around .15. So I run 14# rebound springs for my confidence factor.
Gee, watching Jerry's exhibition footage he runs .12 - .14. I guess he has competition.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tomcatt51 View Post
Randy Lee, Apex Tactical, engineers good stuff.

As you lighten the pull you feel more mechanical stuff, particularly if you did no other work.

Try some CCI/Speer ammo. They have the hardest primers and are the "worst case" test.
I will go buy some more Gold Dots then if that is the acid test. I reload with Winchester and Federal primers and have .38's loaded with both.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:39 PM
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I will go buy some more Gold Dots then if that is the acid test. I reload with Winchester and Federal primers and have .38's loaded with both.
Federal's go bang with the lightest strike and are favored by revolver shooters and now also by semi-auto shooters with striker fired guns.
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:50 PM
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Gee, watching Jerry's exhibition footage he runs .12 - .14. I guess he has competition.
He and several others I've timed run below .1 sometimes in competitions, and they are hitting the scoring spot and moving to the next target.

A lot of people can do .15 splits if they are not trying to hit anything. Try it with a timer at your club and you may be surprised how fast some can go that don't usually do well in matches, just trying for trigger speed.
And anybody can do .2 just trying for speed.

What amazes me most is not his trigger speed, but his reloads and gun handling. He has beaten other masters (who were shooting 1911s) shooting steel simply because he reloaded his revolver faster than the others reloaded their 1911s. As you know revolvers matches are won/lost on reloads and accuracy.

Added: For sheer trigger speed, fellow Oklahoman Curt Nichols , Match Director for the IDPA Nationals and 5 times IDPA/SSR National Champion, is about as fast as any I've shot with. He also does speedloader reloads that will water your eyes. We have 3 repeat IDPA Division National Champions here in Oklahoma, so we peons are used to getting beat "REAL GOOD!"
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357 magnum, 640, 642, bianchi, commercial, fouling, gunsmith, idpa, k frame, model 625, primer, speedloader, tactical, winchester

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