Will a spotless barrel shoot better? The answer is no, match shooters take "fouling" shots because a super clean barrel will not shoot to the same place after a few shots are fired. Too much fouling is bad but also too little is bad. Point is why worry about it, it is often said that more barrels are ruined by over cleaning than shooting, I would just shoot and enjoy. BTW nice photo I can never get one that good.
The photos you posted are of excellent quality and the forcing cone area does seem to be a bit sloppier than one would expect of a Smith. That said, as long as the rest of the barrel and the muzzle area is as it should be, you should be OK. The bottom line is ........how does the gun shoot?
Sadly I am in Finland so I can't send it to S&W, I have contacted S&W via email and shown them the pictures. I have done the same with the smith that is S&Ws local service guy, he has said he will look into it as well. I suppose a possibility would be to cut half an inch from the barrel, recut the cone and fit the barrel all over. Then it would be a 6" gun like my M17, and if the smith does it right, no crush-fit.
As for how the gun shoots, currently it shoots lead (which is what I intended to shoot the gun with) pretty badly, a lot of leading and accuracy is not thre either. But I got undersize throats, once that is fixed I plan to try again and see if that helps. If it does work I am inclined to leave it alone.
I was told putting an 11* forcing cone on it could remove the divot or bump (whatever the proper english word is)
11 degrees won't take that out. Why can't you send it back from Finland? I would send it back if at all possible. HTH c good
The law, sending a gun across national borders is not an easy or cheap thing. I could probably get it sent away to america for 100 euros, but itd probably cost 400-500 dollars just to export it again (and yes that would be required to send the gun out of the US again).
There is a finnish S&W service center though. Still waiting to hear back.
Hello everyone and sorry in advance for resurrecting this old thread.
I have a 686-6 with EXACT the same streaks (without the dent). I decided to write in this thread because these were the ONLY two photos which showed the same problem. Not just leading but exactly these streaks in exactly the same place. Tried an ammonia based lead remover as well as Hoppe 9 which worked great in general but did not remove or altered these streaks. They stayed exactly like they were.
Has anyone ever heard what came out of this situation here? Would be great if the thread starter could share what happened later on with his revolver. A local gunsmith looked at them and said it would be normal residues from bullets and Hoppe 9 would get them out with a bronze brush. The barrell shines pretty much but these strange gray streaks remain.
Looking at the OPs pictures in post #5, that forcing cone is very rough. Note the circular grooves in the chamfer. Not good for lead bullets.
My 5" bbl. 686-6 TALO 3-5-7 had that same problem (rough FC & abrupt transition to the rifling) & had leading issues so I bought the tools to re-chamfer the FC.
It reduced the problem but I was never completely satisfied with the results of shooting lead bullets, no matter how many different bullet types & powders I tried.
I ended up going to plated bullets for my range loads & am very happy with them. (Zero Bullets make some reasonably priced jacketed for when you want to splurge, for a few more cents.)
I also re-chamfered the muzzle. None of the 686 muzzles I've seen are impressive, IMO.
The net result? It now groups as good, or better, than my more expensive 627PC & is a joy to take to the range!
And "Yes", S&W should have done a better job, on both ends, before shipping it out, but I took care of it myself, learned a few things, & got some tools for my next adventure.
Personally I take it in stride.
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686-6 FC, before
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686-6 FC, after chamfering (before polishing)
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686-6 muzzle before
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686-6 muzzle, after chamfering (before polishing)
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Brownells Chamfering Tools
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8-out-of-ten ain't bad
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5" bbl, 686-6 TALO 3-5-7
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Waiting for the break of day
Last edited by BLUEDOT37; 01-06-2019 at 05:38 AM.
Reason: .
Thank you for your insight BLUEDOT37, these are some nice pics you took. Looks well executed as well!
There are a few things to mention here: I live in Germany and doing anything on the barrel expect cleaning it is highly illegal! If i would cut or rim anything of the barrel or frame i would be in trouble with the weapons' law and i really don't want that!
I'm a competition precision shooter what means i really need as tight groups as they can get and the ammunition has to be fairly hot to be accepted for competition. Not the best but also not the worst argument: These things are really expensive here and mine is a declared target model which ist sold for precision shooting and costs a fair amount more than a standard 686. Knowing that something ain't right with it when going to competition is really annoying and you can't concentrate on the shooting part (also known as the fun part).
Here are two pics of the streaks (i don't have a good camera, sorry) and while investigating i came across the fact that my forcing cone is worn heavily to one side? Upon research this does not look correct as well. I've shot somewhere between 3000-5000 rounds through it. Soft oil cleaning after each session and more intense after ~300 rounds. NEVER switching between lead and jacketed without proper cleaning.
I think i will send S&W USA these pics and ask them what to do or what they think of it.
Oh what an old thread, I got a PM informing me of the activity.
I never got the gun "fixed", I was offered a refund but I wouldn't take that. This handgun will never be sold because it is grandfathered in on a life time permit. New finnish laws requires me to send in proof of activity every 5 years for any new handgun I acquire a permit for, they also raised the cost of a permit from 30 to 80 euros... And in 2013 I became a father of twins and built a house and I have basically not shot a gun since then. Where do people with kids get the time?
Anyway back then I bought a few hundred jacketed bullets, as the advice I got was to shoot it in with jacketed bullets, a few hundred jacketed loads I was told would wear it in nicely. Though I can't recall if I had any real leading issues when I shot lead bullets either, I was mostly worried that something was wrong and perhaps I was too anxious.
I'm afraid I don't have much else to offer. Like Bluedot37 writes, jacketed bullets should make this no problem. I am not sure I really had an issue with the gun either even when I shot my own cast rounds, though an 11 degree forcing cone might be a good idea nonetheless since I like bullet casting. I have acquired a workshop since then and am currently restoring a 1958 Deckel FP2 milling machine, also have a lathe, so I should some day be able to handle most of any gunsmithing I need to do.
I have a forcing cone tool and have used it. You can smooth out tthe forcing cone quite a bit and really only need the basic kit. Rod, handle, large 11 degree cutter and lap piece.
That little square of metal isn't good. I think I would try to scrape it out with a dental pick or by making a small scrapper and carefully work it out. A small pit low spot is preferable to something protruding. Another question is how hard would it be to import another barrel and have it fitted?
Thank you for your insight BLUEDOT37, these are some nice pics you took. Looks well executed as well!
There are a few things to mention here: I live in Germany and doing anything on the barrel expect cleaning it is highly illegal! If i would cut or rim anything of the barrel or frame i would be in trouble with the weapons' law and i really don't want that!
I'm a competition precision shooter what means i really need as tight groups as they can get and the ammunition has to be fairly hot to be accepted for competition. Not the best but also not the worst argument: These things are really expensive here and mine is a declared target model which ist sold for precision shooting and costs a fair amount more than a standard 686. Knowing that something ain't right with it when going to competition is really annoying and you can't concentrate on the shooting part (also known as the fun part).
Here are two pics of the streaks (i don't have a good camera, sorry) and while investigating i came across the fact that my forcing cone is worn heavily to one side? Upon research this does not look correct as well. I've shot somewhere between 3000-5000 rounds through it. Soft oil cleaning after each session and more intense after ~300 rounds. NEVER switching between lead and jacketed without proper cleaning.
I think i will send S&W USA these pics and ask them what to do or what they think of it.
How does the gun group, have you got a gun vise you can use to test the inherent accuracy in the gun? Seeing that you have shot 3000-5000 rounds out of yours I doubt the idea I was told of shooting a few hundred jacketed rounds will help one iota... I am more worried about the look of the forcing cone, did it come like that, or did that develop with time, like does the bullet strike off center?
Hard to think they wouldn't allow you to have a gunsmith to say shorten the barrel a little like half an inch and make a new throat... That would be OK here as long as the gun did not become too short, there is a minimum OAL but I forget what it is.
By the way this thread is awakening old memories and I rembered a concept I was looking into with regards to this issue, it was called firelapping.
I have to alter what I said, I see the forcing cone erosion is even on closer examination of the pictures. So that does not hint at what I thought it did. I am not sure if that's the kind of erosion one might expect after 3-5000 rounds, depends on how hotly loaded they are maybe?
I don't have a vise or easy access to one sadly. Precision is pretty good when i'm having a steady day. What i think i have witnessed (i'm not sure of anything by now) is that loads begin to destabilise faster in my revolver than a similar 686 from other shooting club members. I have to send relatively soft lead bullets really slow so they won't start to tear slightly broadened holes. Always thought "that's just how they work".
Shooting a plated SWC load a colleague got perfect holes while mine seemed to be not as perfectly round as his (ammo out of the same box, same barrel length). Thought that was strange that day but did not thought much more about that.
Would make sense in connection with an off alignment that the bullets get a dent and are more sensitive to fast paces.
I would not like to have it shortened. 6" is the maximum allowed barrel length for the type of competition i'm shooting and i need every bit of sight radius. And if theres something off in the forcing cone and the beginning of the rifling i would not want that barrel any longer. What else could be off?
If i knew if all of that developed with time or it was like that from the beginning i would be a bit smarter but i frankly have no idea. It was my first big-bore firearm as well so i did not knew what to look at.
The rounds i shot were medium loads in the lower-middle loading ranges of the powder factories. Plated, jacketed or lead. I have never loaded at max powder charges. If i wanted some hot ammo i bought some from the store.
Edit: The extra angle is very present at the bottom of the cone, getting slightly less in the sides and is nonexistent at the top.
And in 2013 I became a father of twins and built a house and I have basically not shot a gun since then. Where do people with kids get the time?
Well those twins should be getting close to being introduced into the shooting sports.
Myself---I took about 8-10 years off from much shooting and did no reloading. But then ---oh boy----once my son started shooting I pretty much had to get him into reloading. Think of the number of rounds you shoot and double it, or in your case with twins you might need to triple it. My advice---start stockpiling components now while you can afford them.
What i think i have witnessed (i'm not sure of anything by now) is that loads begin to destabilise faster in my revolver than a similar 686 from other shooting club members.
Shooting a plated SWC load a colleague got perfect holes while mine seemed to be not as perfectly round as his (ammo out of the same box, same barrel length).
Your FC looks better (not as rough) than the OPs or mine did. The bevel on the edge of the FC is odd. I'm not sure if it is of consequence though.
You might want to check the diameter of the FC's opening by using a fired .357 case from your revolver. Place the mouth of the fired case up against the FC opening to see how the sizes compare.
Ideally the FC mouth's diameter/opening should be no more than .020" over the bullet's diameter. The fired case's (~.377") diameter will be very close to that.
If you have access to a pin gage set you might try verify the barrel doesn't have a constriction (usually at the barrel-frame union due to over-tightening). The largest pin gage that can be freely inserted into the muzzle (~.345-.346", which represents the bore diameter) should slide smoothly thru a clean barrel & not stop before it exits the FC.
You can re-chamfer the FC without shortening the barrel. I used the 5 degree cutter because the 11 degree would have made the FC opening too wide before it removed the rough area in the FC. You would only have to shorten the barrel if the FC was damaged/out-of-specs.
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Waiting for the break of day
Last edited by BLUEDOT37; 01-07-2019 at 01:50 AM.
Reason: .
Re-chamfering would be highly illegal in Germany! Basically i am not allowed to do anything but switching grips and cleaning. Not entirely correct but you get the idea. Regarding chamfering or milling or cutting or something: No, i'm not allowed and i don't want to get in (serious) trouble. All such things have to be done a gunsmith.
You can lose your ability for lifetime to own firearms when you get cought with something like that.
To be honest: The streaks worry me kind of more than the angle. How far the streaks go i cannot tell or make a pic. They seem to run for a bit but they don't reach the muzzle (i would have found them way earlier because i checked cleaning progress always down the muzzle). I don't have such gauges here. Strange are both things and i don't like any of that. Not for my matchgun.
"There could be something wrong or not or whatever", is not as pleasable when you don't know if just missing a shot was your fault or maybe the FC nicked the bullet or whatever? For a plinking gun this would be ok but especially for precision competetive shooting that's not ideal at all.
I checked the FC with a shot case from this gun. The case mouth fits just into the FC for 1mm (0,04" should be in imperial). It seems to have a little space at the bottom and sits flush at the top but not very obvious. Or i'm beginning to see things.
I've send these pictures to the German distributor of S&W guns and wrote them what i think is strange. I'm a little "nervous" what will come back. I will inform you all.