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Old 09-21-2011, 08:26 PM
fang fang is offline
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I have a mod 1917 that the cyl stop doesn't quite pop up on two chambers cocking it single action, i was reading in jerry khunhausens book you could bevel the top edge of the cylinder stop for minor timing problems would this be a good place to try it?all the rest lock up fine, these two are very close, you'r thoughts? John
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:46 PM
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no comments? or didn't i describe it well John
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:24 PM
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At this point do not polish or trim anything. The first thing you need to do is to disassemble and give it a good cleaning. If that doesn't fix it, I'd replace the cylinder stop spring. It also sounds like the hand is not moving the cylinder into proper position. You may have carry-up problems and need a new hand.
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:50 PM
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Also, be sure to have snap caps or empty brass in the chambers when checking the timing. Empty chambers will allow the extractor to move a little, affecting carry-up.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:30 PM
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it is clean and oiled, cyl stop spring is good, puting brass in doesn't help, however if on the chambers that don't lock up you pull the trigger and hold back the hammer so it does't fall fast the chambers will lock up the hand must get just a little extra nudge. on the ones that do lock up they lock up very well hardly any play. i checked and took the end play out of the cyl. which i thought would take care of this but didn't, I think it is the extractor rachet. it is not cut well, rather crude if i got another extractor how much trouble are they to fit? i thought if i beveled the edge of the cyl. stop i might get it to engage with out much trouble guess not John
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:02 PM
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If it's just one chamber on the extractor that's not carrying up, sometimes you can peen it just a tad to make it engage the hand enough to fix it. Fitting a new extractor can be a lot of work.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:51 PM
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I think beveling the cylinder stop was only if you had installed an oversized cylinder stop and it wasn't engaging the cylinder notches.
Have you had a gunsmith look at it? It may cost you a few bucks to have it checked out but at least you would have a better idea of what the problem is and what your options are.
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Old 09-24-2011, 12:04 AM
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You need a wider hand.
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:31 AM
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Keep in mind that when Jerry Kuhnhausen wrote that manual gunsmiths didn't have the wide selection of parts that are available today. You'll note that he recomends trimming the rebound spring instead of using a lighter spring and it's because at that time there was only one spring you could purchase, the factory spring. He also shows how to stone the SA sear on the trigger to reduce the SA trigger pull, something that I don't feel is wise and will create issues with "pushoff" down the road. A much easier and safer way to reduce the SA trigger pull is to simply install a lighter rebound spring. Quite simply some of the procedures in that manual were a result of the time period of when it was written.

As for chamfering the cylinder stop, it's was probably an expediant method at that time and "may" still be viable today. However I would advise that any chamfer applied be microscopic in size and done with the assistance of a minimum of 4 power magnification. If you think that might solve your problem it may be worth a try but I would make every effort to make that chamfer NO wider than 0.003 to 0.005 inches in width. Otherwise you may be looking at trying to replace a cylinder stop that hasn't been made for many many years.

Now, in reference to your 1917. The ideal solution would be to fit a new extractor. However, if won't be at all easy to find a new extractor for a revolver produced nearly 100 years ago. Note, if it's a Classic re-issue it will feature Modern parts and be under warranty, so a trip home is the simplest answer. Second best answer is to install a thicker hand, however that may require the pawls for the chamber positions that now time properly to be fitted to that new hand. In addition it may also require widening the frame window for that thicker hand.

Third best option is to peen the pawls that are falling a bit short on carryup. BTW, peening is basically hammering on the top of the pawl to make it "bulge" a bit wider and will require the use of an anvil or steel topped bench to support the extractor. You'll also need a hardened peening punch with a slightly dome shaped face. You will also have to be very very certain that you are working on the correct pawl.

Finally, IMO many of us are much too critical in terms of timing. Yeah, I know that is what is taught today. However these are Combat Revolvers and really weren't intended to be cocked in Super Slow Motion. I'll also note that the S&W manual for current revolvers advises that in double action the trigger NOT be staged. Quite simply, if the timing is really borderline it's not really a problem if you use the revolver as it was intended to be used, cocking it briskly and pulling the trigger in one complete smooth motion. Doing this will allow the inertia of the cylinder to carry it into full lock even if the timing falls a bit short in Super Slow Motion. I'll also note that almost any S&W 6 shooter that times out perfectly with a right handed trigger pull will fail on timing with a left handed trigger pull when using a super slow motion trigger pull.

BTW, I have a new 625 JM that actually times correctly with a super slow motion left handed trigger pull. However, it locks up so tightly that it's right at the borderline for a Hand/Cylinder stop bind. I have no idea who fitted my 625 but my impression is that he fitted it within 0.0002 to 0.0005 inch, which is extraordinary for something that is hand fitted and likely a fortunate accident for me. I also expect in 2 or 3 years of shooting it may start to fail left handed because parts do wear.

Point is, IMO total perfection isn't absolutely essential but it is a "judgement" call. I have a 67-1 that will fail on one chamber in super slow motion and it doesn't spit lead or concern me because that isn't how I use the gun. I'll also note that like your 1917, pulling the trigger gives the hand just enough of a nudge to drop the stop into the notch. If you make it a habit to shoot your gun briskly, IMO you should just leave it alone and just keep an eye on it.

I'll also note that if my 67 didn't carry up with a moderately slow pull of the trigger or cocking of the hammer I would have a gunsmith correct it. IMO timing issues are something that is best left to a pro who really knows what he is doing. Quite simply, it takes Practice to fit these parts without making mistakes and part of that learning process will likely mean making mistakes that will end up costing more than paying someone to fix it for me.
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:52 PM
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Trying to follow this thread, it is not clear whether the problem is with the cyl stop or the hand. In the opening "the cyl stop doesn't quite pop up on two chambers cocking it single action" seems strange in that there is no relationship between individual chambers and the cyl stop.

Question seems to be that the cyl is not turning far enough to allow the cyl stop to get into the slot on the cylinder. If it's that and only two chambers are affected there is some difference in the ratchet. Problem with Colts as they wear, in advanced cases none of the chambers go to battery till the trigger is pulled. On a gun in initial wear condition, individual chambers could be affected just due to production tolerances. In either case some attention to the hand should fix the problem.
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Old 09-25-2011, 09:21 PM
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in my second post i think i said i thought it was the ejector rachet it is very poorly cut, crude,problem is if get ahand which is a little longer then the cyl.will be binding at thepoint sear release on the other chambers as they lock up very well thats why i thought that if i beveled the sharp edge on the right side of the cyl stop it would help it slip into the cyl. slot without going to a lot of expense and work i will have to ponder this for a while and see what new scheme i can come up with all this being said i think since itdoes lock when i pull the trigger it would shoot ok but i like things to be as right as possible and by beveling i mean a very small amount at the top edge of the right side with a fine stone no grinders or anything like that John
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:12 AM
rhmc24 rhmc24 is offline
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This is not gunsmithing, just making do. I don't see a problem with a little chamfer to the cyl stop. Seems to me it wouldn't affect the other chamber notches but only drop in sooner in rotation. Before doing mods to anything I would check out availability of parts you might modify. If something you do messes up the part you will know more about replacing it. You might study the ratchet and decide what was modified and consider doing something to restore its function. I don't know about S&W but I had a Colt that I fixed a star problem by a ding with a punch.
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colt, ejector, extractor, gunsmith, lock, model 625

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