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Old 11-16-2011, 09:26 PM
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Default How many lbs..DA trigger pull ?

Can someone tell me the factory trigger pull weight adn the least trigger pull weight that would be acceptable on a K-frame ? I finally got myself a pull gauge and would like to tweek the DA pull a little. Thanks
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:49 PM
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Smoothness is every bit as important as lightness. A smooth 12 pound trigger is easier to work with than a gritty 10 pound. I've heard of guys getting their double action pull down to around 8 pounds but they usually have trouble with light strikes.
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Old 11-17-2011, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
double action pull down to around 8 pounds but
I have no experience with leaf spring models, but the j frames I've been working on 8lbs is very difficult to do. 9 or 10lbs is a more reasonable goal and you avoid primer issues. Newer J frames I've tested all seem to have 12 to 13lb DA pulls. Older ones, more like 11-12lbs. Some spring kits, out of the package, will render about a 1 to 2lb reduction in DA pull depending on which rebound spring you use. Minor, I mean VERY minor stoning on the DA surfaces and the rebound slide will get another .5 to 1lb reduction. The forged rebound slides hardly need any work at all. The MIM rebound slides are rough as heck.
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hearsedriver View Post
Can someone tell me the factory trigger pull weight adn the least trigger pull weight that would be acceptable on a K-frame ?
Factory usually runs ~12 lbs. Lowest acceptable depends on what you want.
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:02 PM
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First, when I tune my triggers my personal goal is 100% reliable ignition with ANY ammo that is commonly available and I'll try multiple brands to insure I achieve this goal. Ammo's that I've used in my testing are Speer Lawman TMJ, American Eagle & Federal Champoin, Remington UMC, and Winchester White Box. I'd like to try some Sellier & Belloit due to recent complaints about "hard" primers in this brand but it seems to have dried up in my area. I've also conducted tests for accuracy because I discovered early on that there is a region between 100% ignition and good accuracy where partial ignition of the primer can occur. The effect of this is vertical stringing when shooting from a rest. If you see degraded accuracy when pushing the limit for "light" adding 1/2 to 1 lbs. to the trigger should bring the accuracy back up to snuff. Keep this in mind when you read the following, I'm a bit more conservative than some when tuning for a light DA trigger. Because I've actually tested for the effect on both ignition and accuracy.

To some extent it's dependent on whether the revolver has the firing pin in the frame or on the hammer. With the frame mounted firing pin there are several aftermarket firing pins available. So, you can install a longer firing pin that also offers an extended travel provision compared to the factory firing pin. Personally I've been using the Cylinder & Slide firing pin and have had perfect reliability with a DA trigger set ot 8 lbs. I could probably take it lighter but I've found that 8 lbs. works quite well for me.

With a hammer mounted firing pin I'm more conservative and tune them to 9 lbs. I'm sure that lighter is possible but with the hammer mounted firing pin you can't swap in a longer firing pin if you find your accuracy has fallen off. While a bit heavier, in a well tuned action the difference between 8 and 9 lbs. really isn't noticeable unless you shoot the 2 guns side by side.

I'll also note that you should do your best to make sure that the rebound and mainspring are "in balance". While it's not too critical, trying to tune to an 8 lbs. DA trigger with the factory rebound spring will require reducing the mainspring power to the point where misfires may be an issue. Generally when I tune my guns I start by installing a 14 lbs. rebound spring, lighten the mainspring tension, and then measure the results. If a previous owner hasn't "adjusted" the SA sear on the trigger, this combination will result in an 8 lbs. DA trigger and a 3 lbs. SA trigger in a well balanced action.

However, with guns that have had some previous tinkering with the sear on the trigger, this combination can result in a single action trigger that breaks near 2 lbs., much lighter than I am comfortable with in a handgun. In this case IMO the best way to correct this is to stone the sear on the trigger back to the original factory profile, however with an older Forged trigger that stoning may remove any remaining case hardening and you may have to replace the trigger. This is one reason why I am NOT a proponent of tweaking the single action sear on the trigger to adjust the SA break, today it's much easier to select the proper weight of rebound spring to achieve the same goal.

Finally, if you want to start tuning your triggers I can tell you it's not very difficult. You will need to pay attentions to the details and should have a detail oriented mindset, but it's NOT some black art that takes years to learn. I would recomend that you start by purchasing the Kuhnhausen S&W Shop Manual and Jerry Miculeks Trigger Job DVD before you start. The manual covers the basic features of a good action tuning and Jerry's DVD covers achieving good balance and fills in some of the gaps due to design changes in the more recent revolvers. You'll also need some tools, a good trigger gage that repeats consistently, a 6 inch arkansas stone, a selection of rebound springs, and I would suggest at least 2 strain screws correct for your grip frame.
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:14 PM
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Scooter summed it up. Buy some Wolf springs. Work on hammer return springs to lighten trigger pull, you should get three in a kit. Lightening the hammer reduces pull but also increases time to ignition. Bad for light strikes and accuracy. I always work with stones and lube on the hammer return mechanism and use an Aftermarket spring with strain screw completely tight for the hammer in K frames and J frames I do not alter the coil spring.

Last edited by JMusic; 11-17-2011 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:06 AM
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Well there is what's possible and there's what's practical. My N frame 625 USPSA/ICORE competition gun has a DA trigger pull just south of 7lbs. In order to get this light everything has to be smooth as glass, Federal primers have to be hand seated and the really big caveat is you have to drastically reduce the weight of the hammer. My hammer weighed 497 grains before I started cutting on it. It now weighs about 279 grains. 6.5lbs on a DA pull is possible on an N frame but it's running on the ragged edge and only works with Federal primers. I like to keep my K frames around 7.5 to 8lbs because I cant bring myself to radically bob the old forged hammers that are in them.

I have a number of S&W revolvers spanning from about 1965 to present and I've yet to find one that needed the SA sear messed with. Every one I've ever dealt with were about perfect as is and lightening up the spring a touch just makes them as light as they ought to be. Any lighter and I wouldn't feel comfortable using it. My 686 no dash is a perfect example, it's just scary light and the gun hasn't been touched since it left the factory. DA is horrid on it though.
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:39 AM
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Lightening the hammer reduces pull but also increases time to ignition. Bad for light strikes
Lightening the hammer, by itself, DOES NOT "reduces pull" or cause "light strikes". It will, by itself, DECREASE lock time and IMPROVE ignition. It's amazing how fast a half weight hammer (easy to do with a FMFP MIM hammer) falls with a stock mainspring and strain screw. Lightening the hammer DOES allow you to reduce the mainspring tension which will reduce the DA pull.
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
First, when I tune my triggers my personal goal is 100% reliable ignition with ANY ammo that is commonly available
Why?......
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Old 11-18-2011, 02:02 AM
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Lightening the hammer reduces pull but also increases time to ignition. Bad for light strikes and accuracy.
Lightening the hammer also INCREASES accuracy. Less momentum in the hammer is quite noticeable with the barrel being more stable (dropping less) when the hammer stops.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:34 AM
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Why?......
Why not?.....Suppose you're in Texas hootin' it up with Ted Nugat and you've burned up the 10,000 rounds you brought with ya. It's satisfying to know you can just go to the local 7-11 and buy their white box Big Gulp Brand economy bulk packaged ammo. Hey ya can't beat 1000 rounds for $12.00. But ya just have to know your gun can set off those civil war era percussion caps they use for primers.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:40 AM
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Why maintain reliability across brands? It's pretty simple, I don't reload and have to shoot what is available in the shops.

Personally, I feel a bit fortunate in that American Eagle is well stocked in my area at one range I like to shoot at. I've found it to be very well made and quite accurate, so I can shoot an ammo with a reputation for easy to ignite primers. However, if I go to visit my brother the ammo choice available in his area is different. There it's either Blaser Brass or Speer Lawman. Both of which are good ammo's but they do have a reputation for harder primers. BTW, he lives in Ohio and next time I visit I'll be bringing a truckload of Blaser Brass home, Fin Feather & Fur has prices on the Blaser Brass that puts Walmart to shame. As for the Speer Lawman, it's a bit spendy but it's also an exceptionally well made ammo with accuracy that is nothing short of simply amazing.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:47 AM
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If you're really shooting that much reloading is considerabley cheaper and gives better control of the product. It's easy to do the math to see how many rds you have to shoot to pay for the equipment.
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:56 PM
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You can lighten it considerably. It just depends upon what you want to do with it. I use most of mine for competition shooting and my 686's and 625's are down to 5.5 & 6lbs double action pull. They are 100% reliable, but I only use Federal primers on my revolver reloads.

If you are going to be using factory ammo then you will want to go no lower than 7lbs double action pull.

Find a good revolver gunsmith who can not only polish, but smooth up your trigger action and tweek your springs. It pays to research and find a good revolver gunsmith...they are getting harder and harder to find.
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Old 11-18-2011, 02:42 PM
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It pays to research and find a good revolver gunsmith...they are getting harder and harder to find.
I wuz communicating with Teddy Jacobson in Texas. Guy seems nice. Answered all my questions in a concise and prompt manner. He promised a 3 week turn around. But.....2 things really turned me off. One was his requirement that I ship my revolver overnight. Yikes, that would have cost me $50. The second and worse issue is his age. He's like in his late 70's or maybe early 80's. With my luck, he'd do the bucket swan dive while in posession of my revolver and I'd play heck getin' it back.

Teddy's social media reputation isn't very good. Apparently, many folks online don't like him for his out spoken opinions on politics. He's been banned from a lot of forums and his posts removed.

But, no one disputes he's one of the best Smith & Wesson revolversmiths in the world.
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrod View Post
I wuz communicating with Teddy Jacobson in Texas. Guy seems nice. Answered all my questions in a concise and prompt manner. He promised a 3 week turn around. But.....2 things really turned me off. One was his requirement that I ship my revolver overnight. Yikes, that would have cost me $50. The second and worse issue is his age. He's like in his late 70's or maybe early 80's. With my luck, he'd do the bucket swan dive while in posession of my revolver and I'd play heck getin' it back.

Teddy's social media reputation isn't very good. Apparently, many folks online don't like him for his out spoken opinions on politics. He's been banned from a lot of forums and his posts removed.

But, no one disputes he's one of the best Smith & Wesson revolversmiths in the world.
I have heard good things from people who have sent him some of their guns. Nothing wrong with being old...if they can still do their work.

When you get to be that old...you are entitled to have your opinion.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:40 PM
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I have already slicked my action and with the reduced power Wolff mainspring and a Wolff 14 lb rebound spring, I have a 2 3/4 lb. SA pull and a 10 lb. DA pull with the mainspring screw seated all the way. I think I am happy with that.
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686, gunsmith, hardening, k-frame, lock, model 625, primer, remington, umc, winchester

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