Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > S&W-Smithing
o

Notices

S&W-Smithing Maintenance, Repair, and Enhancement of Smith & Wesson and Other Firearms.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:04 PM
Tyrod Tyrod is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sunny Central Florida
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 334
Liked 993 Times in 378 Posts
Default The Great American J-Frame Spring Test

Hypothesis: Compare the relative virtues of commonly available aftermarket mainspring kits on my J frame revolvers.

Tested Products:
1. Wolff J Frame kit 17125
2. APEX Tactical Specialties J-Frame Drop in Duty/Carry Kit
3. Wilson Combat Custom-TuneŽ Spring Kit, S&W J Frame 321

Additionally, a Browell's J-FRAME DUTY/CARRY KIT FOR S&W REVOLVERS 100-007-219 was purchased but was not tested as this is the exact same kit as the Wolff branded kit evidenced by the description on the package "Designed & Custom-Made by Walter Wolff". Furthermore, a Wolf spring kit for J frame rimfires will ultimately be used in the 317 after the tests are concluded.

Tools Used:
1. Safety Glasses. You're working with springs under pressure, be safe!
2. Gunsmither Smithmaster Rebound Spring Tool
3. Screwdrivers appropriate to the grips screw and sideplate screws
4. Hard Arkansas stones (I had a variety on hand)
5. RCBS Military Rifle Trigger Pull Gauge
6. Somthing to put in the mainspring strut hole to capture the spring. I used a dulled push pin.

Testing Methodology:
Precondition: I bought all these revolver new. All the revolvers in the test, a 442(no dash) circa 1994, a 642-1(no IL) circa 2011, a 317-3(IL) circa 2011, have been conditioned by dry firing with snap caps 1000 times. The 442 has had a few cylinders of factory ammo through it. I don't know exactly how much, but certainly less than a box of 50. The other 2 revolvers have never been fired.

Conditions: Double Action trigger pull tests will be conducted at every step in the experiment. Since factory DA trigger pulls on most any factory revolvers will be in the 12+ pound area, a somewhat specialized trigger pull gauge was purchased. I purchased the RCBS Military Rifle Trigger Pull Gauge with a range of 0 to 25lbs in 1/4lb increments. I also have Lyman electronic trigger pull gauge I used to verify trigger pulls once I got down to 11lbs and less. All the recorded data was done with the RCBS gauge so I wouldn't get deviation because of using 2 different gauges.

Testing Measurement:
At every step a total of 10 trigger pulls were averaged and recorded along with the standard deviation. Since this is a mainspring test, rebound springs weren't tested until the final step. Rebound spring choice is a personalized one and would muddy the water in this type of test. I don't have the patience nor do I want the wear and tear on my guns to test every possible rebound spring combination. Measurements were taken at the following steps:

1. Cleaned & lubed with stock springs
2. Wolff 8lb mainspring installed
3. Apex 9lb mainspring installed
4. Wilson 8lb mainspring istalled
5. Removed lube, honed DA sears (hard Arkansas stone), relubed and installed stock mainspring
6. Wolff 8lb mainspring installed
7. Apex 9lb mainspring installed
8. Wilson 8lb mainspring istalled
9. Best mainspring installed along with the rebound spring from that particular mainspring kit that I liked best.
10. Testing of the 22lr kit was left until the end since the springs in that kit were of no relevence to the other revlovers.
11. 200 rounds of the hardest to lite ammo was fired to verify reliability. Ammo test was CCI Blazer Brass 125 Grain Full Metal Jacket, Remington 130 Grain Full Metal Jacket, CCI primed 110 grain Jacketed Hollow Point handloads, Sellier & Bellot 158 Grain Full Metal Jacket (difficulties with this ammo caused me to change to Winchester 38 Special 125 Grain Jacketed Flat Nose (see post Problem with Sellier & Bellot)

Experiment:


Observations:

Keep in mind this is a mainspring test. Rebound springs will reduce your DA trigger further pull by around 1/2 to 3/4lb.

Wolff claims the factory mainspring is 8.5lbs. I have my doubts.

The Lyman gauge is harder to use and is erratic above 11 lbs pull weight. I was taken aback by how accurate the RCBS gauge was, especially at lower readings considering it's wide operating range. The comparison of the 2 gauges worked out surprisingly well since The Lyman verification of the RCBS gauge worked out to about .03lbs difference.

The APEX kit is delivered with one rebound spring. I'm guessing APEX takes a one size fits all approach. If you don't like that spring you may go back to the stock spring. More on this in the preliminary results section. Conversely, you may buy one of the other kits for a wider selection of rebound springs to go with your APEX kit. The APEX kit is 3x times the cost of the other kits sans additional rebound springs but including the Apex XP Firing Pin kit. The APEX sales propaganda doesn't specify whether the firing pin has any differences over the stock firing pin and only states a "reduced power firing pin return spring". My measurements revealed the APEX firing pin to be .0125" longer than the firing pin in my 642. Note, however that the Apex XP Firing Pin kit (with firing pin spring) is available from APEX separately and extended firing pins are also available from Cylider & Slide. Also keep in mind that older, presumably pre MIM Smiths have a slightly different method of removing the firing pin. On those older guns the firing pin retaining pin is held in by a driven in pin from outside the revolver. I have never removed one of these driven in pins, so I can't speak to the ease of doing so except it's gotta be harder than just plucking the pin out of the frame as is true on newer Smiths. Not to mention the harm doing so could do to the finish on your revolver.

The Gunsmither Smithmaster is one of the best tools I've ever purchased. Not because it can do something no other tool can do, but because it can do a job other tools can do and do it much easier and safer. I have used the rebound spring tools as supplied by Brownells and others and I can say with no reservations the Smithmaster is head and shoulder above the rest. I have one tip though. When removing the rebound spring using the forked end, only lift the assembly about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way, then use the pointed end for finish removal. I had no issues with the longest of rebound springs with the Smithmaster.

On the stoning part. There is no need to buy any other stones of different grit. It's simply not neccessary I did all the action work with 2 stones. One was a 1/4 square x 3" hard Arkansas and a wedge shaped 3"x 3/4" x 1/8" hard Arkansas. The wedge shaped stone was perfect at getting at the DA trigger sear without having to remove the DA sear from the hammer. In places where it's practical I alway stone in the direction the parts move against each other. Not at 90 degrees as I've seen countless others do. Sometimes you just can't do that. Such as stoning the 90 degree SA hammer sear hooks, but that's a whole nuther subject. For the purposes of this test I did not stone the SA sears. I RECOMMEND YOU DO NOT MESS WITH THE SINGLE ACTION SEARS ON YOUR REVOLVER UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE TO DO SO.

Apparently, somewhere around 1994-1995 time frame the mainspring swivel was changed. The older metal version is much easier to work with than the newer rubber one. I had done all the experiments on the 442 before I started on the newer guns. Upon my first removal of the mainspring on the newer guns, because putting a pin in the hole was kinda vague on the rubber swivel I managed to launch the stock mainspring and rubber swivel into orbit. I imagine they're circling Uranus about now. So, I had to order stock replacements.

Preliminary Results:

I am loath to post these results, but I promised on another thread that I would submit my results in a timely manner. Relibility tests have not been completed on the 642 because of a problem with some of the ammo. Review this post. Problem with Sellier & Bellot Additionally, I have added more guns to the test. A new Model 60, and if the deal goes through a vintage model 60. So sometime in the near future I'll have more data to add. Even though the Apex spring kit delivered the best DA results in one of my guns the ending results doesn't justify the high cost of the kit. The APEX furnished rebound slide spring is very lazy and I didn't like it at all. I'm positive rapid DA would cause short strokes. Additionally, the firing pin furnished with the kit was found to be not necessary. When I get my 642 back I'll complete the firing reliabilty tests. However, I don't expect any issues and I won't be using that kit anyway. The 442 with forged internals and Wilson kit delivered the best DA pull and I didn't have any FTF. In fact, I had no FTFs anywhere. Ostensibly, any work that I have done either with spring replacement or action honing has caused any reliability issues. I've had so much shooting to do, I have not tested the self defence ammo I will ultimately use in these guns.
Based on these preliminary tests, I conclude the best bang for your buck is the Wilson Kit! A person not inclined to action honing should expect results siliar to those have way down the graph. A person inclinded to do action work can expect results such as I did.

This is a limited test, I'm sure with the limited guns on hand to do the test, the results aren't conclusive. However, with the other guns coming the results will be interesting and more statisticly valid.

Caveat: I don't work for any of the companies I refer to in this test. In fact, I don't work at all, I guess I'm just lazy that way.....no no no, I'm retired. I worked in a wafer fab for nearly 30 years.

Special thanks to member VM for helping me out when I buggered up one of my sideplate screws.

P.S. Flame away!
__________________
NRA Benefactor

Last edited by Tyrod; 11-18-2011 at 06:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 11-23-2011, 01:14 AM
jim9 jim9 is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

My new 638 is hard to cock for single action. Would the replacement springs lower cocking effort?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-23-2011, 02:09 AM
Tyrod Tyrod is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sunny Central Florida
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 334
Liked 993 Times in 378 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim9 View Post
My new 638 is hard to cock for single action. Would the replacement springs lower cocking effort?
Most likely, yes.
__________________
NRA Benefactor
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-23-2011, 02:44 AM
TACC1 TACC1 is offline
US Veteran
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wautoma, WI 54982
Posts: 4,118
Likes: 6,564
Liked 799 Times in 499 Posts
Default Quite a feat!!

Whether the testing you did is relevant to everybody, I sure
like the thoroughness. These are tests that you always wish you could find somewhere, but only hear about one test at a time. There's
no way to put a single test with one set of parts and work into
a proper perspective.
Thanks for all your efforts, and I Am impressed. You get
Three (3) points for doing community service!
TACC1
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:55 AM
Tyrod Tyrod is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sunny Central Florida
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 334
Liked 993 Times in 378 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TACC1 View Post
Whether the testing you did is relevant to everybody, I sure
like the thoroughness. These are tests that you always wish you could find somewhere, but only hear about one test at a time. There's
no way to put a single test with one set of parts and work into
a proper perspective.
Thanks for all your efforts, and I Am impressed. You get
Three (3) points for doing community service!
TACC1
TYVM, within a week I'll have 2 more J frames to add to the test.
__________________
NRA Benefactor
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:58 AM
getoff getoff is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL Panhandle these days
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 941
Liked 525 Times in 269 Posts
Default

heck of a job here. i'm very impressed with the time it took and the data. i am going to order the wilson kit for several of my snubbies today! thanks much for this, it is great.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:07 AM
photoman's Avatar
photoman photoman is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Great State of Texas
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 522
Liked 1,907 Times in 787 Posts
Default

Wow. How did I miss this one?! I'll have to go get a fresh cup o' coffee and spend some time looking over the details.
__________________
Centennial Every Day
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-26-2011, 04:03 PM
airman's Avatar
airman airman is offline
WW II Vet
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Texas
Posts: 257
Likes: 208
Liked 46 Times in 24 Posts
Default

Very good report. I've added this to my favorites to visit again.
__________________
USN WWII Korea
NRA
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:29 PM
drd drd is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sun City Center, Fl
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 2 Posts
Default Thank you for your extensive analysis

I have a new Model 632 coming and you answered every question I have been pondering about lightening the trigger pull. Appreciate the work you did for us.

I know this is a year later but the info applies to current questions.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:58 PM
ladder13 ladder13 is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 30,692
Likes: 57,546
Liked 52,816 Times in 16,468 Posts
Default

Good stuff, alot to digest. I just did my 1st "trigger job" yesterday.I used the Wilson kit on my 649-3. Lightened up the trigger quite a bit, now I just hope it works. Planning a trip to the range tomorrow to see how she fires.
__________________
Sure you did
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-14-2017, 11:10 AM
jhkunkel jhkunkel is offline
Member
The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test The Great American J-Frame Spring Test  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Virginia
Posts: 86
Likes: 49
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default Smith & Wesson J frame spring kits

Thanks for the info, very informative and educational.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
22lr, 317, 442, 642, brownells, j frame, military, model 60, rcbs, remington, sideplate, smith-wessonforum.com, tactical, winchester

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First test with Apex trigger and spring job madracr07 Smith & Wesson SD & Sigma Pistols 41 05-04-2015 12:32 PM
New American Rifleman - M&P15 MOE Test WardenRoss Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 12 03-02-2013 05:51 PM
1991 American Handgunner 1006 torture test abrazzo Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 4 04-23-2012 11:16 PM
J-Frame spring test Tyrod S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 0 11-17-2011 11:12 PM
Test Your Knowledge of American Auto's RonJ The Lounge 24 05-01-2011 10:37 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)