The following comment about J-Frame Apex Firing Pins in the "1980 to the present" Revolver sub-forum prompted me to post this thread.

"I have had galling in all of their firing pins, which causes them to stick in the firing pin channel"

Recently I installed two of the Apex Firing Pins in J-Frames and when doing so noticed that the finish was a copper color, which made me wonder what type of coating it was and why they applied it to their pins. I also noticed that it was kinda "grippy" but figured it would wear in over time.

Prior to installing the third firing pin in another J Frame I decided to take a little of the liquid Flitz, which is weaker than the paste version and put it on a paper towel to see how the copper colored coating responded. I was a little surprised to see that it started coming off fairly quickly because it usually takes 30 or 40 seconds for the liquid Flitz to start "working", especially when applying it by hand.

What really got my attention was that within the first minute of working the Flitz I had two flakes of the finish break off. These weren't big flakes mind you, but big enough to possibly cause problems in the firing pin channel.

After seeing this I decided to remove the copper coating on the remaining pins I intend to install and go back and remove the two already in guns & do the same.

When I removed the two pins already installed, which had maybe 100 dry fires each on them (w/Snap Caps) I seen what I guess could be described as galling in the notches for the Retaining Pins. Another way to describe it would be "gouging", which was only through the copper coatings and didn't effect the stainless steel surfaces underneath which could clearly be seen below the "gouges." These gouges weren't clean edged witness marks left by the Retaining Pins but had saw tooth like edges, as if the finish was breaking off.

Prior to installing the "cleaned up" firing pins I made sure to flush, then blow out the firing pin channels since I was concerned where the "gouged away" pieces of coating might have ended up.

Previously I had mentioned that the copper colored coating felt "grippy", this was even after applying Eezox to them which acts as a protective coating & dry lube. After removing the copper colored coating & reapplying Eezox it's hard to pick the little buggers up because they are so slippery.

I should have taken some photos of the gouges, I thought about it at the time, but do have some after photos. You may see some vestige's of the copper coloring, which are in the notch & around the base of the pin portion of the part. My goal wasn't to remove it all, but enough to make sure that the flaking I had seen couldn't happen again. Each pin took about 2-3 minutes to work using Flitz & a Dremel Tool with a small felt wheel at slow speed.





If it turns out that I compromised the integrity of these pins by removing the coatings then I probably wouldn't use the Apex Pins since, based on my experience, they come with a coating that doesn't seem to want to wear off gracefully in some areas. Based on the quote I started this thread with I may not be alone but don't know for sure since I don't know exactly what they had seen or where the "galling" they mentioned occured. My main concern is that they said they had experienced Apex firing pins that stuck in the firing pin channels, which is exactly what I thought could happen.

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Ogy

That is the reason, I will not use their pins. I have e-mailed them about this, and got no response. I thought I was the only one with this problem.
But I would be willing to bet, if you use Apex pins, and take it out, you will see galling/gouging, of the pin, and it will be hard to remove from the channel. It may not be causing any problems, but I won't take the chance, especially, in a carry gun.

Does anybody know what the stock coating/finish is on these Apex parts?
Do the (semi-auto) M&P parts have the same coating/finish?

Now that you mention it, on one of the two pins that I removed I had one heck of a time getting it out and for a few minutes the issue seemed to be in doubt.

The pin I had a hard time getting out moved freely, up to a point, then stopped but I thought the back portion was hitting the frame (M642). Having removed pins five times in less than a week, twice from that gun alone, that was the only one that gave me any trouble at all.
It more than made up for those other times being so easy....

When I reinstalled a "cleaned Apex pin" in that same channel, which had been flushed & blown out, it dropped right into place.

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Ogy

Mine have definite galling/gouging. I tried to polish it, but the gouge is still there. I have been trying to get a decent picture, but can't get good focus. I will keep trying.

Here is what happened to EVERY one I installed:
Either they are out of spec. or he is using the wrong steel for these pins. Apex even states that they are hardened.
I installed about 5 or 6 of these, and this happened to all of them! They are very difficut to remove from the frame after this happens.

After reading the above posts, I checked my 2. The only thing I can see is the copper finish has worn off the face of the pin ( one completely and the other- just the bottom half ). No problems getting them in or out.

All I see is a slight raised spot, probably from hitting the retaining pin. That should take 10 seconds with a stone to fix. Are you using the Competion Kit with a full strength mainspring?

These are the "ignition kit" firing pins, with 8lb. spring.
S&W firing pins dont do this..
Why should I have to take a stone to it?? I am just warning people about the possibilities here.

Did the firing pin still move freely in it's slot with the retaining pin in place with everything assembled?

I dont really remember. I just remember them being very hard to remove.

Thanks for your input allglock. The gouges I found in the copper coating were in the same area,
back half of notch, as the galling in your photos.

I agree with another poster that this galling could easily be stoned & polished out, but the main
reason I purchased 5 of the Apex Pins was added piece of mind on my carry guns.

Now if I run with the Apex Pins I have to wonder, how often, or how many rounds I can put thru a gun
before I should check them, which means I'm kinda back to square one.

Off hand do you happen to know when S&W lengthened their Firing Pins?

If you do, do you know if the "lengthened pins" received a new part # and what that might be??

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Ogy

Agreed! Like I said, I have a titanium pin from 2008 and it measures .484 (which is way too short IMO). I then read that S&W were making them longer, so I ordered one just to find out. The new one I just got measures .491, which is just barely acceptable IMO.... So, I would say its safe to use S&Ws pins again.
I have purchased a few old style stainless S&W pins, and have found them to be either .491 or .494 in length. I put the .494s in all my newer S&Ws, just to be on the safe side.
I will stay away from Apex for now. I belive it is just a machining issue on their part. I dont think the grove is machined out low enough?

The S&W firing pins all have the same part #. When I've ordered recently, Midway or Brownell's, I've gotten the "good ones", .495" long with a hemispherical tip. For a while all you got was variations of the "iffy" 485" pin.

I'm not sure of the exact chronology. My 66-5 and 14-7 both came with steel FMFP's. Apparently pre-dating the titanium .495 pins. Then for various reasons we got .485 pins in different tip shapes (that sometimes were fine and sometimes weren't) and now we're back to .495 titanium with a hemispherical tip.

I've put quite a few rds (combined, at least 30,000) thru my 625-8 and 14-7 and 66-5 (yes, they're FMFP) with Apex firing pins with no issues. I do prefer the ~.495" S&W firing pins but only because they're lighter being titanium.

The "good" S&W pins seem to have a length range of .492 to .495, a hemispherical tip, and are titanium. The ones I've rcd recently have been consistently .495.

Hope I've got that close to right. Maybe other posters can add more.

Wow Murphy left me alone on this one! When I was looking for a spring kit for the J-frame, Apex was just announcing their kit but it wasn't yet available, I went with the Wolff kit. I was very very happy with it but wondered what 3 times the cost of the Wolff Kit would buy me from Apex. Someone finally did a comprehensive text with 3 different spring kits and convinced me I had made the right choice. Here is the link to it The Great American J-Frame Spring Test

This post here should convince a few more people that you don't always get what you pay for!! $8.00 for the Wolff Kit or $25 for the Apex...hmmm

Hi guys,

I'd like to take just a minute to address the issues brought up in this thread.

Our revolver firing pins are not coated at all, they're raw stainless steel that's been heat treated. The heat treat process gives us that "Copper-ish" color that you see on them. This is not a coating that should "flake off" as described. There is no reason that I can think of where anything should flake off the firing pins.

The raised up lip you're talking about does interest me though, I haven't seen that on any of our pins as of yet. We designed the firing pin to have plenty of clearance in the firing pin channel, so that debris could easily pass by and clear out.

This is the first we've heard of issues with our firing pins in the J-Frame kits. If you wrote us an email about the issue, it was not received. If you write us an email and don't receive a response within a few days, it may be best to call us in the shop to get an immediate response. Some times, emails don't go through.

I would like an opportunity to have a look at these pins that have been troublesome for you guys. If our products aren't right, we definitely want to know about it so we can make it right.

Scott @ Apex

I dont know what you are measuring with, but I am using a digital caliper. I just received a new firing pin about a week ago from S&W, after they were on backorder, so I know its the newest out there and it measures .491, and has the round head on it.

I will send them all back, and I would like my money refunded... hope that is an option?
Most people would not have a reason, to take them out. I noticed it on the first one I installed, and then proceded to take the rest out, after seeing the first one.
I would like to note that these were from the original pins, when they were first introduced. I dont know if that would make a difference or not?

Based on the information garnered from this thread I just went and ordered some factory
S&W Firing Pins thru Midway, although they will be on back-order until early April.
To me this back-order status is a good thing, it means that Midway has flushed out their
inventory so whatever they get should be the most current variation (S&W #229520000.)

It was kinda hard to swallow the fact that I can get 4 of the S&W Pins for
about the price of one Apex, although the latter does come with a spring.
In order to justify my outlay of money on the Apex Pins I will probably try
using the Apex Springs with the S&W Pins just to make myself feel better.

Someone mentioned the Apex Main & Rebound Springs so I'll comment on those.
I found it odd that Apex doesn't call out their spring weights, saying that it would confuse the issue.
To me, not knowing adds confusion, not removes it.
I guess it's a non-issue really since they only give you one of each.

Because of this I only bought two of the Apex "full kits" then switched over to Wolff Springs.
Last night I did my first "trigger job" using the Wolff Springs and afterwards didn't like the results.
No problem, I went back to my spring packs and messed around with different weights until I found
the right combination, an option I didn't have with the Apex, unless I mixed & matched with the Wolff Springs.

One of the reasons I'm doing this is to learn about my revolvers and by having no choices with the Apex,
or what weights gave me the results I got with their kits, it isn't much of a learning experience.
Besides that, I like to know exactly what I'm putting in a gun that my wife & I are staking our lives on.

To be honest, I personally don't like the feel of the trigger reset with the Apex,
but, without guessing, I don't know which weight Wolff rebound spring
I should try first, not knowing what weight the Apex spring is.

Oh well, live & learn. Now that I have a number of Wolff rebound springs in weights
from 13 to 16 lbs and main springs from 8 to 9 lbs I can mix & match to my hearts content,
learning along the way, until I find the right combination(s) that meets my needs
for a specific gun, that will fill a specific role. As opposed to the "One size fits all approach."

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Ogy

Scott, thanks for your input in this matter.
I was in & out of the room while doing my last post so never seen the above response before posting it.

Before I give you a recommendation let me tell you where I'm coming from.
For over 10 years prior to retiring I worked quality in a GM Engine Plant where I had to root cause
quality issues on a daily basis.
This encompassed many different issues, from thread pitch & angle to the quality of the print-a-seal
on paper & metal gaskets, as well as many other issues like finish quality & hardness.
Our Case Dept. (Engine Blocks) took raw castings then "sliced & diced" them to close tolerances
so the issues I dealt with were many & varied.

Based on that experience and the fact that I personally seen a flaking issue with
the hardness coating of your Firing Pins I would make this recommendation.
You either need to revisit your process or have a sit down with your supplier.

I've always looked at any issue objectively and this one is no exception so please take my
comments in the spirit they were intended.

Now that it looks as if I've removed the hardness from my pins, which was prompted by the flaking,
and probably compromised the integrity of my pins it looks like they are a done deal. I'm still trying to figure out, the flaking issue aside, why the hardness coating came off so quickly & easily.

Like I said in my last post, live & learn.

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Ogy

Dial caliper and 0-1" vernier micrometer. I can only reference the ones I've measured which has been over a period of years, vs just one firing pin.

If you're dissatisfied with our products, you can send them back for a full product refund as long as the parts have not been modified.

We have gone through one revision of firing pins in the last year since the release of the J-Frame kit, but that change was only to the back end geometry of the pin.

Post retracted due to confusion on my part......

__________________
Ogy

As I said in my previous post, there is no coating on these pins.

Our firing pins are 17-4 Stainless steel through hardened to maximum. The polishing you did could not have removed any level of hardness because the pins are heat treated throughout. Which means the metal on the outside and at the core is the same hardness. The polishing you've done removed the oxide on the pin produced by the heat treat process, nothing more.

We created the J-Frame kit as a Drop-in, not an experiment with springs kit, if it were intended for experimentation, we would have included a multitude of springs including a list of spring rates and recommendations.

Excellent, thanks for clearing up my confusion Scott!!

When it comes to experimentation you didn't reduce it in my case, but expanded it.
Now I have to experiment in order to try and determine what weights are in my gun
so I can dial it in the way I feel the most comfortable with.

Some like options, others don't, to each his own.
I had the option of not ordering your kit's, I choose to and that's that.

__________________
Ogy

Would that have affected, the problem I am having? I don't know exactly what you mean by back end geometry?

The back end geometry referrs to the back end that the hammer strikes. It's a possibility that a bad pin got through QA, but I can't say for sure.


If the firing pin retaining pin were to be poorly located in your gun, that could cause a burr to raise up but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

Scott

After going back and re-reading this thread there's an old phrase that comes to mind:

"Much to do about nothing."

In your eyes, maybe.........

Must be, I do seem to have trouble seeing imaginary problems.

Here are the pin lengths of my recent J frame purchases:

Model 642-1 (2011) FP=.485”
Model 60-15 (2011) FP=.489”
Model 637-2 (2010) FP=.485”

I might add that each of these guns (as well as many other J frames) have been test fired with 200 rounds of my special selection of known hard to ignite ammo/primers which includes:

50 Rounds of Blazer Brass 125 Grain FMJ
50 Rounds of Remington 130 Grain FMJ
50 Rounds of Winchester 125 Grain JFN
50 Rounds of CCI 500 primed 110 Grain JHP handloads

All with the stock firing pin & firing pin spring, in addition to the Wilson J frame sping kit. NOT 1 MISFIRE! 2000 rounds of ammo through J frames of various vintage from 1981 to 2011 and still NOT 1 MISFIRE!

My feelings about the APEX kit should be well known. But if you're not, here they are. You pay 2.5 times as much for a kit with a firing pin you don't need and a rebound spring that just plain sux. The rebound spring is very weak. While the weak rebound spring may give you a lighter DA pull (although it doesn't compared to the other kits) it feels terrible with hardly any forward push of the trigger at all and it gives a dangerously low SA pull in the neighborhood of 1 to 1.5lbs.

Stay tuned in the coming weeks as I complete my testing of the 3 commonly available J frame spring kits part 2. 10 iterations of various J frames. Believe me that The Great American J-Frame Spring Test Part 1 was just a taste of what follows.

Oh, I almost forgot. If you must have a longer firing pin/spring then you can buy the APEX firing pin/spring separately along with a Wolff or Wilson spring kit and still end up $1.00 cheaper than the APEX kit. Then you'd have a choice of rebound springs best suited to you individual taste.

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NRA Benefactor

OK... a big gouge in a firing pin, causing it to bind in its bore is not a problem...............

Well crud. The mushy return bugs me but works just fine in my 640. Now I'm all concernacus about if my firing pin is falling apart. I will go home and see what mine looks like and do my best to take pics. I don't shoot the heck out of my 640, but I have shot it several times since installing the kit. No issues, but now the interwebz worry disease has me in its grasp.

The text and "the big gouge", which I don't think you've even established to be what made the firing pin hard to remove.

If you want you can come over to my house to see it in person..... since pictures and my word mean nothing to you.........SHEESH..............Get over yourself!

This forum is here for people to help each other, and discuss things in a rational way. That being said, I dont know why you continue to harass me and it seems as though you dont believe what I say?
I will continue to try to help the good people of this forum! As I would hope they would help me!

Some people get more out of certain information than others, that's the nature of life. Me, I learned something. Back in my Quality Days we had a saying "When in doubt, check it out," so that's what I did.

I must admit that I did use the wrong word in the title of this thread when I chose "coating." Here's the line of thought I was following at that time. My van has a paint finish on it and when I go down a muddy or dusty road it usually picks up a coating of mud or dust. It's not something in the design, but it's there nonetheless.

I had a feeling that the copper color wasn't a "finish" but a "coating" (see above) and while I may have used the wrong word, technically speaking it's an oxide, at least my train of thought was on track.

With that said, I did learn that the oxide that I had seen flake off when testing it's adhesion to the part is simply a by-product of the manufacturing process, which begs the question, why is it left on there afterwards?

The main thing I learned, and I thank Scott for this, is that by me removing that copper colored oxide I didn't harm my parts. I probably enhanced them by making them slicker and removing any possibilty of this oxide coming off in my firing pin channels like I had seen it come off on a paper towel.

You can say what you will, allglock's photo of his firing pin has me wondering about long term durability, especially since he says it's on more than one pin. "When in doubt, check it out."

There is always varieation in any manufacturing process and no matter how hard a company tries, the best they can hope for is what's called a "Stable & Predictable Process." This doesn't mean a process is perfect, none are, it simply means that you know what to expect along the way and once you understand & accept the fact that you will generate some bad parts from time to time, you can deal with it more effectively. When it's a visual defect they are usually easy to remove from the process, in the case of metallurgical issues things are much tougher to detect and it might just be a case of allglock getting parts from a "bad batch." It happens, I don't care what anybody tells you.

One good way to learn for sure what's going on would be for Apex to get those pins back from allglock and do a little testing, which should generate data that could help their product in the long run.

tomcatt51, just so you don't come away from this thread empty handed, the old phrase goes,
"Much ado about nothing."

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Ogy

As soon as I can find my bit set I will be opening mine for examination and pics. Now if I could just learn to put things back in the same place...

For what its worth, I'm leaving mine in.
Do I need them? Probably not.
Are they overkill? Probably.
Am I concerned about them? Not enough to take 'em out.
Time to go shoot-

The offer to send the pins back to us for inspection and analysis is out there.

Scott,
could you please clarify what offer means in this specific case?

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Ogy

Scott, one other question, does that copper colored "oxide" on your Firing Pins serve any purpose whatsoever?

If it doesn't, could you please advise on why it's left on the Pins??

Thanks

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Ogy

That was post number 22 in this thread.

Leaving the pins that color is a good visual verification that they've been properly heat treated. Stainless steel of the variety we use in our firing pins changes color when it's heat treated outside of a vacuum. It always changes and to a consistent color, so leaving the pins in their post heat treated state gives us an easy way to assure they've been heat treated.

Got it Scott, so allglock can send his pins with the swedged metal in the notches back, on his dime, so you might be able to determine if there was a quality issue, or not, which, in the long run, might help you put out a better part?

I was just trying to clarify if he was going to be out of pocket any cash to help you with a possible quality issue.
I did read your comment in post #22 and understand the refund aspect, with the conditions you mentioned. A quality issue seems like a different situation than you stated in your previous post (#22), which is in keeping with the context (quality issue) of my comment that you quoted.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Also, thanks for the clarification on why the oxide is left on the parts.

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Ogy

If Allglock would like to contact us about shipping pins back to us on our dime, he's certainly welcome to contact us, as are you if you would like the same.

Polishing the pins with Flitz is not something that I would consider modified, if you had ground them down or done something else like bead blast them to remove the coloration of the metal, I would say that they were modified.

My email is in my profile and on our web site if you'd like to get in touch with me about this. In fact, I'm curious as to why you or Allglock didn't contact us personally about this prior to posting on this forum. If you send an email and it's not answered, the shop phone number is published all over the place.

Scott

Thanks Scott, now why didn't you say that in post #22, it would have saved us both a little time.

Nothing wrong, in my opinion, about discussing things out in the open so others can form their own opinions on whatever the topic, or issue, may be.

As long as everybody has a say it's all good.

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Ogy

What happened to you Bob? I'm thinking that if you're anything like me you're still looking for your bit set, or maybe trying to figure out how macro works on your camera.

__________________
Ogy

I cannot comment on Apex firing pins for J-frames but I have used the extra length Apex FP's in both L and N framed guns. I have shot 15,000 rounds through each of the N framed guns and a bit over 10,000 rouds through the L frames. No problems have been experienced! The Apex firing pns are great products in my book.

I did try to contact Lee via e-mail a while back, and never got a response...so I solved the problem myself and purchased some old style S&W pins...I don't know why I even saved the Apex pins, but I will send them all back, as they are worthless to me..

I currently have an order thru S&W for a couple different types (part no's) of Firing Pins they list for J Frames, more to measure them and see what I come up with before doing any swapping with my gun's stock pins. If I can find any that are longer than the Pins in my 2008 & 2009 642's, which both measure approx .485", then I'll use them. Eight new S&W Pins, 4 of each part #, as well as 4 pin springs & shipping ran me $30 & change. If I come up with some that measure the same as the Pins in my 2010 & 11 J's, which come in right around .490", I'll run with those.

Allglock, based on what I seen in your photos all of my Apex Pins will be pulled and I'll stick with Factory Pins unless I actually have an issue with light primer strikes due to lighter springs. If I do, I'll simple go back to a stock weight Main Spring & see what I can come up with, balance wise, with the choices given for Rebound Slide Springs in the Wolff or Wilson Kits.

Currently I'm just biding my time waiting for the Pins from S&W and a few Wilson Spring Packs before I go back into two of my guns and remove the Apex Pins & Springs. All it took was some easy experimentation with a Wolff Spring Pack, which was done back to back with two of the Apex Carry/ Duty Spring Kits so I was able to get a side by side comparison, to sell me on the advantages offered by the Wolff Kits.

I've found that even after smoothing up the actions that each action has it's own feel so the one size fits all approach, which may work well for others, just wasn't my cup of tea. Now I'm able to match a Rebound Spring weight to a specific action and by doing so get a much better, more positive, feeling Trigger reset.

Before I went with the Apex Kits I had heard numerous reports here, as well as on other sites that the Trigger felt "mushy" with the Apex Springs but I figured that this was simply a case of personal preferences. While that may still be true, it's my preference as well. As always, your mileage may vary......

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Ogy