I purchased a .45acp 625 performance center a while back but I still have not used it.
Discovered first day on range that there was no way the trigger weighed in legally for competition, checked it out further and discovered timing was very bad. (Especially using left hand)
And with "bad" I mean that it sprays a lot of led sideways and also the firingpin hits the primers from middle outwards to the side.
Actually you can clearly see the hammer fall and after that the cylinder snaps in place.
Btw as a bonus the front sight was to short, thus when the rear sight is tightened to the frame it is still about 2 inches away from the holes in the target...

And I could use your advice mates!



Here it is - a very beautiful and comfortable piece of competition equipment or what do you think mates?


Why have I not warranteed it?
Easy, I live far up in the cold and desolate wilderness in Sweden.
Restrictions against mailing firearms limits options here.
I have tried warrantee though and talked to my Swedish dealer and attempted to email Smith & Wesson USA straight away when I got the Performance Center, the answer instructed me to phone a certain number that I never managed to get an answer from.
I looked through my mail from back when I had help replacing the 686PC and mailed same recipiants, but no returned answers.

I take it for granted you understand that S&W warrantees within sweden are non existent.
Gun smiths? Nope, none close enough to visit. (Swedish dealer mentioned a gunsmith close to our capital that might be skilled enough to fix the PC, however it is about 1250 american miles/2000european kilometers there and back to drop it off, and yeah of course double that again to pick it up. (Not knowing if it can be fixed, he can fix it, and very likely parts and work will be just about as much as a new revolver.)
There is a lot of restrictions and paperwork-**** that if police finds it non satisfying you could loose ALL your licenses and get served with things you would not even beleive so I wont even begin to tell you this part.

So I am here for your advice mates!
A/ Should I try to purchase parts and fix her, front sight, a wider hand, shims and probably at least hammer and trigger for legal trigger pull and start filing away hoping everything will get right...
Or
B/ Should I scrap the new 625PC, order another and hope for a properly working as it might not differ that much in money from ordering parts and driving cross country in hopes of finding a skilled gunsmith?


I could try post a video on Youtube so that you might have more info judging how serious you think the timing problem is. I would like to know if you dare fire it "as is"?
Looking forward to your feedback mates!


/Silverbullit

I would like to see pictures /video to see exactly what the problem is with it.

Shooting high I can see*, but, an out of time revolver leaving the performance center, doubtful...


Lets see those videos!!

*Whats the velocity of the 45 ammo your firing from it?

Howdy, thanks for your reply mates!

Retired LTC, USAR:
Of course, I will threw together a quick video of the 625PC in question with hopes it comes out so you can see for yourself what I mean mate?

Shovelwrench:
Not only that mate, this is my second performance center revolver and both came failing to time properly.
I own, love and purchased only S&W revolvers with the exception of a 1911 and a 9mm needed for competition.
This is the second revolver I had trouble with straight out of the box.
Strangely the first troublemaker was also a performance center however circumstances was different back then here and S&W was terrific and kindly warranteed that.
This post is about this 625PC Performance Center - 625PC so there will be no confusion!!!


PLEASE OBSERVE THIS PARTICULAR POST IS AN ANSWER TO OUR DOUBTING MATE SHOWELRENCH SHOWING MY PREVIOUS AND FIRST PERFORMANCE CENTER (686) ALSO HAVING POOR TIMING!!!

The first .357 Performance Center looked like this:

01: This picture points out the most obvoius defects.


02: Lets start with the barrel, I should have taken a picture with a
steel-ruler that would have been a clear picture but this will do, the
barrel turns sideways, right, from the frame, and it is 2-3
millimeters as the red line shows. Worsening this horrible view is
that the front sight leans another millimeter or two to the right.
When you aim - you see the sight half a centimeter to the right.

03: The leaning front sight is also attached with a broken pin. Also
you see some of the surface high quality finish that is known all over
the gun. (If you look on the barrel from above there are two glass
blastered sided from the middle grooves, one side is smooth and the
other has deep and rough air-pocket bubbles)

04: This is a brand new gun, S&W:s most expensive 357 performance
center top of the product line and further can you explain to me how
a brand new gun has a ONE MILLIMETER DEEP GROOVE in the top strap???

05: There is a drill hole in the barrel underneath the ejector rod of
the chamberpiece, is there supposed to be a drill hole there? Also the
ejector rod is unalined and vobbles quite a lot. Here you also see
some beautiful finish between the barrel and where the top strap
ends.(see pic 07)

06: Close view of drill hole

07: I put both sides of the gun together in a picture. What a
beautiful finish, one side is leaning downwards, the other is
wrinkled.

08: The glass beaded finish... opened the box and first thing i see is
a scratch on the chamberpiece... nice. (There are several things to
say of this glass beaded finish, for instance on the front right side
of the barrel the surface is not properly glass beaded or it is
abraded metal, there are lines and spots shining like it is polished
stainless steel)


I have more pictures of the .357 but I hope this gives you a clearer view on Performance Center from my end.

I would like to point out that I S&W kindly helped me out with a replacement for the first Performance Center. They were very kind, friendly and gave good service (Tho it still had to go through the chain of retailers so all in all I was only without the revolver for half a year/year. Thats not counting it took 14 months for the first to arrive of course.) I should point out I still have receipts, photos and documentation to back every word up!
The replacement is great, I won the Swedish IPSC Championship with the new replacement.
I owe S&W a big thanks for helping me out. (Pity the same people does not seem to work there/have working emails.)
This was in fact what lead me to purchase a moonclipped Performance Center wich I will post a video on as soon as possible!
The replacement of the first PC (686) was flawless and have a grouping that makes me very happy!


Showelhead, I hope this dispears your doubts on my Performance Center experiences.
About the ammo, I used 230 grains led Round Nose Bevel base standard velocity ammo to testfire the brand new limited edition 625 performance center. If the exact velocity is of interest I will have to look up my chrono charts from back when I got the new 625? I can say it was in the middle of the min-max velocity but have to look it up to give you the precise fps.


Anyway, now I'll make a quick video of the new 625 Performance Center in question!

BRB Mates,

/Silverbullit

I made a quick video that I hope will fairly show you the issues of the limited edition 625 performance center.

Performance Center Timing 625.MTS - YouTube

BTW, I should have pointed above the center of the target to illustrate the group/sight issue - however talking and thinking at the same time is not my cup of tea *ashamed* Sorry bout that mates, I hope you get my points despite this.

I tried to learn how to fix the issues by asking around here earlier, however I only tried followed two tips here that was
A/ Getting a rear LPA sight to fix the sight setting .vs group issue
B/ Try borrowing a trigger from another revolver to see if it helped

A made it worse although it is a nice sight, B made it somewhat better. The main feeling I got was being overwhelmed and out of my league and just out of breath. Thats why my brand new PC is dusting away unused in my safe.

I further got tips on filing away at the frame fitting a wider hand, and a shopping list looking something like this:
Wider competition hand
Higher front sight
Hammer block shims
Trigger block shims
Hammer
Sear
Trigger
and some other small stuff, but on a brand new revolver?!?

I can only order items for below a total of 100 usd at a time because of us export rules after 911 meaning I have to break the orders up, pay postage, custom and 25% on top of that sum for each order, that is if they will even allow me to order everything. (A competition trigger kit is out of the question as it is priced just above 100usd)

So purchase everything on the list with hopes I can fix it OR scrap it at the local police station and purchase another brand new performance center in hope I get a properly working Performance Center the third time around? (I actually had started saving up for a third 4" .357 SSD performance center. But forget that, first priority is a working .45acp revolver. Can't say I have despite having paid over 2000 USD for this one.)

I would sure appreciate your feedback mates!

/Silverbullit

One of my friends just had a similar experience with a P.C M686 about a month ago. Right out of the box there were bad scratches, dents, and the trigger was not even as good as a stock older Model 15 from the 70's or 80's. When he called the PC they told him they would send a call tag, but that the repair work would take 6 to 8 weeks; absurd for a brand new PC gun! The same friend just bought a S&W PC tricked out 1911, and the trigger is terrible! There are also feeding problems. That one will be going back this week.

It pains me to say this, but I do not think the Performance Center is what is should be, ESPECIALLY for the money that they charge for their products.

There are not too many Companies left that really do quality work anymore. The two Gun Companies that have recently impressed me with their work are:

Colt - their refinishing and case colors are incredible!!!

Mid West Gunworks - excellent work, reasonable prices and good turn around time.

Dan Chesiak (grip maker) - no better custom made Ivory grips anywhere!

Given the problems you are facing without being able to send the gun back, it might pay you to do the repair work yourself. I know it shouldn't be that way, but at least you can assure the quality of the repair by doing it yourself - that is assuming you have the skills, desire and proper tools and equipment.

By the way, you mentioned you could not mail firearms, but here in the States only the frame is considered to be the firearm. If the same applies there, why can't you at least mail back the Cylinder? Just a suggestion.

Chief38

OK,
With the sight screwed all the way down the gun is supposed to shoot low. You loosen the adjusting screw until the bullet holes come up to your point of aim. While a taller front sight would remedy the issue it makes having adjustable sights pointless...

I was going to comment on the timing, but I just checked my 625-3, built years ago, and it is exactly as yours is. This is a custom built by Volquartzen and exhibits all the timing quirks yours does. I have never had an issue with this gun functioning after thousands of rounds. It might just be the nature of the 625s, I'll check some other N-frames later in the week when I get into town to see if they act the same....

OH, and isn't IPSC trigger weight rules for single action pistols, I thought it was all fired double action with a revolver?

Hi there Chief38 & Showelwrench, thanks for your input!

About that,
A bummer but I humbly lack both proper tools and dont feel particularly skilled either.

The cylinder do count as part of firearm here so thats a no go I'm afraid.

Of course you are right Showelwrench, I'm confusing sight/group and should point above the center in the video - unfortunately thinking and talking in another language at the same time is not my strongest superpower. Sorry about that!

Yes please check those 625s and get back about them, much appreciated!

You're probably correct about the ipsc trigger weight, there are some variations in different revolver competitions (PPC Open, Standard, Metal silhouette, Field, Magnum Field and so forth) and I just kinda see to it all my revolvers are kosher in all of types of competitions I attend in order to avoid any fuzz. The point was that in any kind of competition demanding a minimum trigger weight it would fail to legally qualify and I should have said so if I had not been stressed out having mates waiting outside in their car while I shot the video, uploaded it and posted here cause I promised a quick reply. (Should have made it later when I had more time and do a better job, sry again)

Looking forward to the 625s feedback!

Ok I'm not an expert but before you give up on the gun lets try a couple things. Recent S&W's have a new style rachet star. The old one had two pins that line up the rachet. The new style doesn't have the pins it needs the shells in the cylinder to locate the rachet. If yours doesn't have pins in it you need a clip with empty shells in it to accurately check timing. If yours doesn't have pins notice that without shells in it the star has a little bit of slop, it needs shell in the chambers to line everything up. The new style rachet will give the appearance(sometimes) of very late timing without shells in the chambers. I noticed you didn't have emptys in the gun in the video.
I have 2 older 625's that I shoot in competition and both have many thousands of rounds thru them, they have pinned rachets and time out excellent. I watched your video and went and checked mine and if I hold gun cylinder release down like you did in video and put a thumb on the cylinder like you did I can make mine do the same thing(cylinder can be rotated clockwise) as it doesn't reach lock up, both guns do this but when you hold them without putting thumb on the cylinder they time way ahead of the hammer drop. As I said if you have a non-pinned rachet star that may be why it shows late timing with the cylinder empty and no thumb on the cylinder.
Also if you champer the the cylinder for faster reloads and you have a non-pinned rachet REMOVE the rachet star and champer the cylinder by its self to the depth you want. Then champer the rachet by its self. When you do the rachet make sure you leave some of the sidewall(the part that matches the chambers) for proper timing. The cylinder can be champered alot deeper than the rachet. Pinned rachet stars can be champered with the cylinder as the rachet being pinned timing won't be affected.
Hope this helps.

Last note if I understood your video gun is shooting low with rear sight all the way down? If so rear sight needs to come UP to raise point of impact.
Sorry if I misunderstood.

Sorry about the scratches and stuff, unfortunately buying a gun unseen from so far away has its risks. But S&W needs to get their act together, especially for a PC gun.
Good luck

Where did you purchase the 686 revolver, Silverbullet?
Photo 04 shows a phenomenon called 'flame cutting', which is common on USED magnum revolvers. My 686 has a groove like that, after having shot a few thousand rounds. A new revolver should not have a groove at all, let alone one as extensive as that.
I find that my S&W magnums tend to develop grooves like that, while my Rugers do not. It may be a question of geometry, since I use the same ammo in both.
Also, I believe that your front sight may not be the original, which could explain why the pin looks buggered up. The original sight for M686 is a red ramp. The finish from the factory on the 686 is "satin", which looks like a brushed finish. Your gun appears to be glass bead finished.
In summary, I am questioning whether the gun you purchased was actually new. It appears to be a used gun that was worked on and then refinished by someone after it left the factory.

BTW, even if you can't get a good gunsmith at least you have access to all those beautiful young swedish girls. : )

That is not a Performance Center gun. PC guns (revolvers and semi-autos) have the Performance Center Logo that looks like this:

__________________
"I also cook."

I would take exception with the forcing cone also. It looks terrible and should be cleaned up.

Thanks mates, your support is deeply appreciated!

The few answers I have for you in the order your post follows,
Bosshoss, you have some interesting points!
Unfortunately it does the exact same thing loaded with dummie & live rounds, with or without moonclips. (The clips that came with it and Wilson moonclips)

My bad on the sight/group issue, just speaking english alone confused me and a bit stressed out having the mates outside honking away in the car. (And I did not dare shoot her since I got her because of the really bad timing.)


Andyo5,
I got the first 686 through my local dealer, who got it through wischo, who gets the european versions through S&W who makes them.

Yes to Swedish girls *need my PCs to fend'm off*

Yes the sight was original, the replacement I so kindly received back then came with an identical front sight. I do also know they changed the sight the same year to a version that popped up and was 180 deegres turnable adjustable for different front sight heights.


S&WChad,
Unfortunately yes, both these are S&W Performance Center top of the line revolvers. The first 686 DX is the european version S&W makes for Wischo that is the european retailer. The second (and in question here) 625 is the top of the line 100 limited run from Greece.

Silverbullit,

As far as the timing is concerned, replacing the hand with an oversize one will more than likely fix your timing issue. Not a big job for someone familiar with the innards of your Revolver. The part is inexpensive (maybe S&W will send you one) and easy to do with basic tools.

Replacing the sight should not be a difficult task either, but the marks on your cylinder will not easily be repaired. That would require either a replacement cylinder or refinishing that one.

Addressing the light trigger .......... I would simply try replacing the main spring and tension screw with a heavier one. Since the trigger pull weight is not that far from off, it might just be enough to get it to meet your requirements.

These are issues that you SHOULD NOT have to deal with, but the reality of the situation is obviously different. When you are so far away and "alone" as you put it, self sufficiency is going to be your answer to this problem - unfortunately.

Just out of curiosity, how did you acquire this Revolver? Isn't the dealer you bought it from equipped to handle repairs? If they let you own it, aren't there any provisions to allow it to be shipped in and out for repair?

Chief38

Do the European versions not have the pc stamp?

Well mates,

To answer your Q:s the best I can in no particular order,

The first 686 Performance Center International DX was made in the USA by S&W for Wischo Germany (That is the retailer for europe)
I ordered it through my closest firearms & huntingshop pre-paid and it arrived after 14 months (promised maximum 2 weeks pre-paid)
When the banan-revolver appeared I visited in person, emailed, phoned and wrote hand-written letters for about 6 months and eventually received a trigger and hammer from S&W that they charged me for. I then posted here and suddenly received help to get a replacement (took between 6 months to a year depending on at what event you start counting this time.)
It looks clean because I had not been fired yet, yes this was unfired, who amongst you would fire an untimed bananagun I ask, non of you mates!

The second (AND TOPIC OF THIS THREAD) 625 .45acp Performance Center was purchased from a dealer down south in Sweden. (The previous wait for a couple of years made med choose another dealer this time) As far as I have been led to understand it is the same manufacturer chain here, S&W USA made it for Greece retailer, a couple got picked up by my Swedish retailer. (I purchased 3 firearms at the same occation, the 625 and two 9mm for me and Pop) After pointing out the issues he eventually gave me the phonenumber to the gunsmith I mentioned in the top post in case I wanted to put my dough in fixing it.


S&W changed Swedish retailers a lot over the last year. Actually S&W official Swedish retailer is located very close to were I live. I love S&W and do not wish to comment that choice, just beleive me when I say you would not be doing your shopping there. There are no warrantees there either, they offered to sell me the only part they had for a 625 a hammer for 800sek whatever that is in usd, around 130usd?
Shopping there involves a safe with all firearms stacked in a pile without any protection from eachother, wait, and grumpy salesemen eventually leading you through the back of dusty connecting warehouses and dirty lanes of storage shelves to something that looks like a slaughter-room. I had female company there and they refuse to enter, they say self-preservation and norman bates. Have you ever took a girl to a shop and they refuse to enter, has that EVER happened to any of you? One girl got so freaked out she refused to follow and got outside asap and refuses to go back. You may laugh now mates, but I'm not exactly a little squeaky guy and I don't.
It's a really funky place that you need to visit to beleive.
(Beyond the fact they have no parts, nothing up front, and no sign they sell firearms - and quite frankly incomprehensible they sell anything at all.) I dare you to visit S&W at Storheden Luleå, Sweden.

Andyo5, well the plain truth is here at the obvious periferals of civilisation and a country with groundbreakingly stupid rules there is no choice. S&W is the best revolvers in the world, and it is sad when you get products that not work properly.

Btw, it is not a discussion I want to get in to but in order to illuminate the reality here...
about rules you cannot even "own" revolvers/pistols here as the Swedish government issue 5 year licenses that you have to get pro-longed in good time ahead with proper paperwork. They can come and get your firearms at any time, great isnt it mates? Police enforcement, law & justice and above all our politicians has decided to decimate the illegal firearms by taking the legal firearms away from all honest upstanding citizens seriously interested in competing in shooting sports.


Sorry for the long ramble, thanks again for your support mates!
It means a lot to me!

/Silverbullit

" above all our politicians has decided to decimate the illegal firearms by taking the legal firearms away from all honest upstanding citizens seriously interested in competing in shooting sports."

Yes, and many of our politicians would just love to do the same.

OK, just a couple of points about your testing procedure.

First, I don't know who told you that you should put some drag on the cylinder when checking the timing but they were totally INCORRECT in suggesting this should be done when checking a S&W revolver. Smith & Wesson revolvers are Combat Revolvers, they are NOT precision target revolvers. If you don't believe this, try reading the manual. You will find that the manual SPECIFICALLY states that the trigger should NOT be staged when shooting in double action, it should be pulled in one complete brisk motion. Doing so allows the intertia of the cylinder to insure that the cylinder will carry into lock. Yes, you can have them tuned so the timing is perfect, but that is a cost that you should pay for. If you think I'm wrong about this, try comparing the price of a S&W to the price of a Korth or Manhuran. It should be pretty obvious when you do this that the S&W is actually quite inexpensive. Basically, TANSTAAFL (There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). You paid for a Combat Revolver and it's timed perfectly for use as a Combat Revolver.

Second, you have the rear sight bottomed in it's travel and your groups are LOW. They should be LOW, you have the rear sight set LOW. If you want to raise your groups then raise your rear sight. BTW, I've made the exact same mistake and here in the US we call these mistakes a Homer Moment. So, slap yourself in the forehead and say "DOH".

Finish. It's a Combat Revolver that costs about 950 USD here in the US. I'm certain that what you paid is considerably higher but that is simply a matter of the import costs and a large intervening ocean. It's still a rather low cost firearm if you compare it to the cost of a new Korth, which BTW are now selling for 14,000 USD here in the USA. Quite simply, you really can't expect a 14,000 dollar finish on a 950 dollar revolver.

Trigger pull. I just weighed my 629 and it's weight is 1.239 kilograms. Personally, before you decide that your trigger is too light you should actually use a trigger pull gage to measure it's weight. Frankly I would find it a bit surprizing if it's less that 1.8 kilograms, here in the US that is the standard weight for the single action trigger on a S&W revolver. I'll also point out that the 625 won't balance with the barrel vertial with your finger on the trigger supporting the weight and pushing down on the bolltom of the grip to assist the balance will INCREASE the pressure applied to the trigger. Quite simply, your method for testing the trigger weight is just wrong, either use an accurate trigger gage or use a string and calibrated weights.

Now to sum it up. Timing is likely to be near perfect for a Combat revolver, it's your method to check timing that is incorrect. Two, you're shooting low because you need to raise the rear sight, now lower it. Think about it and I think you'll realise your mistake. Three, you should expect a finish that looks good at arms length, if you want something that will stand up under a microscope you are going to have to pay a lot more for a different brand of revolver. Four, if you check your trigger weight properly I fully expect that it will break at 1.8 kilograms unless you've had it previously tuned. Because that is the weight of the single action trigger on every single revolver I've purchased new.

PS; I did watch the video and when I saw you "dragging" the cylinder to check the timing I took a good close look at your methodology. To be blunt, I did not see one single issue with your 625, however I saw methodology that was incorrect or lacking in every single area that you were complaining about.

I tend to agree with scooter on testing carry-up in double action mode. Testing carry-up in double action mode by applying some drag to the cylinder to most S&W revolvers will give you the same result as you are getting with your .45. The fast trigger pull-through in double action will carry the cylinder to lockup reliably. However, when setting them up, I like to use the same test you did when testing for single action cocking. Some will say you don't need to do that for single action either, just cock it quickly. But I like positive carry up in single action too, for when the gun is dirty and drag on the cylinder is possible. There are a couple of other reasons why this is desirable, but I'll avoid writing a book with this response. How well does your revolver carry-up in single action mode?

Thank you. Scooter's are long enough without any competition.

Hi Scooter & Aphelion,

Thanks for your reply, I am here just in hopes for your feedback mates!
Forgive me but did you notice I showed timing using 2 different methods?
Between 1:01-1:20 in the video I do NOT touch the cylinder just pull the trigger and you can clearly see the hammer fall and after that the cylinder snaps 1-2 millimeters in place.

Just so I am clear, you are certain this is nothing to bother with?
I got really worried about all the lead spraying sideways and the uneven firingpin marks on primers all the way from the edge to the middle?
If you guys judge it safe theres really no problem and I am just happy for your help verifying I can compete with the 625, and sincerely much obliged for your reassurance mates as I got a bit worried over the variation from all other S&W I own!




Oh yes about the group/sight issue, as I wrote next to the videolink - I wrongly point on the target the wrong way (also say this in posts below)

[OBS!!!]I CORRECTLY SHOULD SAY THAT IF THE HOLES ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TARGET - THE AIM IS OFF 2" or 5 Centimeters BELOW!!![OBS!!!]

And not the other way as I wrongly say, in other words it is just like I explain with the sights!
(But poor knowledge in english confused the heck out of me and worse - thinking and speaking at the same time is not my strong suite so I say it backwards in the vid, sry mates. It is unfortunate nobody reads the clarification next to the videolink.)


I am here for your support and feedback mates, even tho I might be going the way about testing I do really appreciate your feedback!

You seem knowledgable Scooter, how do I go about checking the timing in a proper way?

Thanks mates!

/Silverbullit

PS. I will borrow a proper scale to measure the trigger with weights and pull-scale! BRB =)

It is better in single action mode, more so with right hand than left that I have to touch the cylinder in order for it to snap and lock.

About trigger pull I purchased this as it was the IPSC edition for shooting mainly exactly IPSC. (Well other sports to like PPC and stuff.)
But I have to confess the uneven primermarks and all that lead spraying sideways worried me a lot when I noticed I visually could clearly see the cylinder move AFTER the hammer fell. (NOT touching the cylinder)
And yes I understand it seems presumptious of me to judge light trigger weight by simply pulling the trigger, I got this way by averaging 1800 rounds weekly practice for the last 8-9 years and somewhere along the line I got pretty good at estimating this stuff. I can say for certain it is below 1 kilogram, but my shootingclubmate called in is on the way with the clubs weights for measuring in trigger pulls in our competitions.


Sorry I forgot, somebody asked my how much it cost - it was a good deal and I only had to pay 14.995:- sek, the dollar is about 6,50Sek making it about 2300USD if my math skills is not completely off?


About the trigger weight, my mate is here waving weights in my face... =)
It fails the lightest competition weight of 0,8 kilograms (solid weights that you combine with rubberclad hook u put on the trigger and carefully lift the revolver, the base has a starter weight of 0,8 kilograms that cannot be removed, just added to.)
I put the revolver in the vice (with rubber blocks of course) and tried the "pull-scale", the indicator locks at 0,67-0,62 kilograms. (Sorry the closest I can get.) Is that good?
Also noticed now that the trigger does not fall all the way, the hammer seems to randomly engage the double action notch. (happens say 4-6 times out of 100 singleactiontriggering)
Actually even if it makes the fall all the way both me and my mates agree we clearly feel a bump when it passes the doubleaction notch. Does your 625s do this also mate?

Now I got even more confused...

At this point I would just like to add that a few years back I was lucky enough to have a port visit to Goteborg, Sweden. I was still in the USN and we were deployed with NATO at the time. I don't know what looked better, the countryside in any direction you looked or the women in any direction you looked!!! But one other thing did come to my attention... You guys LOVE some Mcdonalds!!! I remember we lost count of all the different places we found them. But they served beer in almost every single one of them! And they were clean! And full of beautiful women!!! (my favorite part if you can't tell)

Ok, I can understand the language issue and your most recent post points up that you do have some issues that need to be addressed.

First off Timing. To properly check timing in the MOST accurate manner you'll need some sized but unprimed casings. This will allow the casings to assist in registering the cylinder to the extractor star. As for why, at some periods the fit of the extractor star to the cylinder was a bit "loose" and casings in the cylinder were the final device to register the extractor star to the cylinder. If your not too fussy about duplicating a cylinder loaded with fresh ammunition you can use fired casings as a substitute but this will improve the registration of the two parts by a small amount. Azoom brand snap caps are also a suitable alternate and I've found their diameter is basically the same as a fresh factory cartridge. If you can get Azoom snap caps in Sweden they are good to have on hand.

Now to check the timing using a method that is considered proper by the largest group of users and gunsmiths. Note, there is some debate on the proper method so what I am presenting is the consensus of what is considered correct. The way to do this is to pull the trigger VERY SLOWLY in Double action and listen for the cylinder stop to crop into it's notch before the hammer falls. If your trigger control is good enough you should be able to drop the cylinder stop in every notch without dropping the hammer once. Now, due to the design of the lockwork in a S&W it is typical for a left handed trigger pull to cause a failure in this test on some chamber positions. The cause is the trigger cocking slightly on it's pivot pin and "throwing" the hand away from the drive pawl. However, with a right handed trigger pull the revolver should pass this test for every chamber position. Failure to pass this test is called a "failure to carry up". Correction for this condition varies depending on how bad it is.
If only one or two chambers are effected the pawl on the extractor can be peened to widen it enough to allow the carry up to be corrected. If every chamber fails to carry up a wider hand is usually fitted.

Now, one note about Timing in terms of Combat Usage. That is that it's obvious that if the trigger is pulled quickly a failure to carry up won't be a problem because the rotating mass of the cylinder will carry it into lock. So, if you are engaging in action shooting a very minor miss on timing may not be worth bothering with. Mainly it's a concern for those who "stage" there triggers to achieve the best accuracy. It's also why S&W advises against staging the trigger in the owners manual, the simple truth is that these were designed and intended to be combat revolvers from the start. Because of this, these revolvers have clearances in the various features that put the priority on Function instead of perfect accuracy.

Now, the good news is that a very good and attentive gunsmith can perfect the timing on a S&W revolver, however it's not as easy as it seems. The problem is that when you try and fit the lockwork on these guns tight enough to "perfect" the left handed carry up you can easily set up a Hand/Cylinder Stop bind. Typically this results in a trigger pull that gets noticeably heavier at the hammer release or stalls completely. Basically, it's a VERY narrow ledge in terms of function. Personally, I don't worry about left handed carry up issues and will allow a very minor miss on a right handed trigger pull. However, I don't stage my trigger in double action, if I'm shooting for accuracy I do it in single action.

Now, about your single action trigger pull. I'll tell you right off that your trigger pull is NOT Factory. In fact it's so far from being factory that I would consider it unsafe. I also think that it's very likely that someone other than the factory has been stoning the sear surface on the trigger in your revolver. I don't know who you purchased that revolver from but I would be having a long discussion with them about selling you a revolver that has been "tinkered with". Chances are very good that you now need both a new hammer and trigger and the cost for that should be born by whoever sold you that revolver.

Now for your sighting issues. Now that the misunderstanding has been cleared up it now seems that what you need is a taller front sight. Take a look at the sight base on your barrel above the muzzle. I expect that you'll see a small hole in the font of the sight base. If so, this means that your 625 has the interchangeable front sight system which is spring loaded. Press the sight blade towards the rear of the revolver and then lift the front up and out of the nest. Now take a look at the reverse dovetail base of your sight and commit that shape to memory. Following is a link to a new front sight blade that I believe may solve your sighting issues, if not you can also use your current sight as a pattern to have a machinist make up a custom front sight of any height you need.

Product: Gold Bead Interchangeable Patridge Front Sight .300 High

PS; I realise that my post may not be the news you wanted to hear. Unfortunately I suspect that somewhere on your side of the Atlantic someone has done some "tinkering" to make it a IPSC "special edition" and they didn't know what they were doing. Basically, they took a perfectly good revolver and butchered it with a hack job. As for why I believe this, it's your single action trigger pull. Quite simply I don't know of any method to reduce the single action trigger on a S&W revolver this much except by removing the trigger and stoning the single action sear to an "assist angle". Since it's obvious the trigger has been modified to a non factory condition it's also possible that your timing issues are also a result of tinkering. Hopefully, whoever sold you that gun will stand behind it and correct the mistakes that have been made here. If not, I would suggest that you look into purchasing the S&W Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen, some tools, and learning how to do your own gunsmithing. It's really not that difficult to learn, basically it's a matter of attention to detail and being meticulous.

PSS; if you do need to replace the hammer and trigger I would suggest that you change the lockwork over to MIM parts. Doing this will save you from having to "fit" the hammer and trigger together because the MIM parts are normally drop in parts.

I looked back at your other posts and didn't see mention of spitting and off center primer hits. Maybe I missed it. That's points up a definite problem and is why I usually don't get too involved in these kinds of threads. It is too hard to accurately diagnose a problem based on another person's long-distance observations about his firearm (or car, motorcycle, computer, etc.) I watched your video and there is no need to apologize for your English. You do great, and your English is certainly better than my Swedish. Good luck with your revolver. It can be fixed.

Your revolver has a couple of problems that no one has mentioned so I guess itis my turn. The problem is that the barrel is not straight in the frame. This mean that no matter what else you do, the gun is not going to be accurate enough for the shooting you plan.My own suggestion, based purely on economics is to deep six this revolver and get another. Given your situation with no parts and no gunsmith and no way to send the gun back to S&W I think your best move is to back out. Yes, I have been a gunsmith for about 40 years and yes I could fix your gun but it would be expensive even here. I'm not sure there is anyone in Sweden you can do this work right. I am sure this isnot what you want to hear but it is my opinion based on your photos and the video. That gun is a mess and there is no good way out that I can see.

Big brother, the issue got confused a little when he posted pictures of a different gun he had trouble with. I believe the revolver with the canted barrel is a different gun (a 686) than the .45 that is the subject of this thread. Or I could be confused too.

Hi mates! =)

Yes, unfortunately I answered one of our mates who wanted to see both my revolvers failing to properly time. I apologize about the confusion!

Thank you mates for your well thought out answers, explanations and support!
And for the link Scooter, thanks!

I did however get eager last evening and started to order parts.
Puzzling together orders from brownells that stays below 100usd each (international limitation) starting with this,
638-000-055 S&W OVERMOLD .310 FRONT SIGHT, GREEN $44.99 1 $44.99
940-210-600 210600000 HAND, OVERSIZE N FRAME $15.99 1 $15.99
713-050-002 #2 POWER SIDEPLATE SHIMS, PKG 10 $17.99 1 $17.99
713-050-001 #1 POWER SIDEPLATE SHIMS, PKG 10 $17.99 1 $17.99


Next orders will be Hammer with internal parts/spring, Trigger with internal parts/spring, pherhaps new internal springs, and any specialty tools needed?

Scooter, I will look in to the Kuhnhausen book! Do you know how I could identify the MIM parts you recommend at brownells? (Hammer/Trigger)

/Silverbullit

Your 686-5 has MIM parts and your 625 (a -6?) is also MIM.
The 686-5's are the first MIM 686's as is the 625-6 the first MIM 625.

With the Performance Center models there are no absolutes on which are MIM and which use Forged parts. Fortunately, it is rather easy to identify the guns that feature MIM hammer and trigger. That is to feel the rear surface of the trigger. On the Forged lockworks the rear surface of the trigger is solid behind the hook you put your finger on. On the MIM lockworks the trigger is grooved in this area so that the cross section resembles a C shape.

Now, before you order any parts you'll need to determine if your present hammer and trigger are Forged or MIM. Going on memory I believe that the MIM hammer requires a double action sear that is designed for the MIM hammer. If you currently have forged internals you'll have to order some additional parts. You'll also need the correct hammer stirrup (the hook thingy for the mainspring) and pins for the hammer and trigger to mount the hand and hand spring. In addition you'll need the MIM trigger lever (the small drive link for the rebound slide).

I'll also warn you that there are 2 different colors of MIM parts. One color is what S&W calls "blued" and it looks a bit like the old color case hardened parts. The other color looks like the flash chromed parts that were featured on some of the stainless revolvers and I believe that this particular MIM alloy is actually a type of stainless steal. If you want matching parts it's likely that you may have to wait 3-6 months to obtain matching parts.

BTW, I'm somewhat up to speed concerning what is involved because my 2011 vintage 625 JM came with flash chromed Forged hammer and trigger. Because I am not really a fan of the narrow serrated trigger standard to my version of the 625 I had ordered a blued smooth .400 inch wide MIM target trigger when I ordered the gun. Got tripped up a bit when it came with forged internals so I've slowly been acquiring the parts to convert it to MIM as they've become available. Last few items I hope to order this weekend, provided they are in stock.

Unfortunately I don't know of any written guide to every single part needed for the changeover so I expect that I'll find I've overlooked something. However I will be taking notes and once the changeover is complete I'll propably post up the part numbers of every part that was needed.

Now, one final tip. S&W has the complete revolver parts listing available on their web site as a PDF files, so it's somewhat helpful as a guide as to what parts were used where and the official part numbers. Unfortunately, it's not very well documented in regards to the dash number for each revolver or the parts so there is a lot of guesswork involved. However, there are clues hidden in there so I would recomend you download it.

Now, for one final note. That is that if your 625 is currently MIM it will make it very easy to replace your hammer and trigger. The MIM parts are so consistent in terms of sizing that normally they are simply a matter of drop in replacement. Fact is the most difficult task may be installing the hand on the new trigger, getting the hand spring correct can be a bit fussy.

Now for one final tip. IIRC most of the competitions in Europe require a single action trigger that breaks at 1.36 kilograms or more. My experience is that a 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a single action trigger break of 1.4 kilograms. If you want to go a touch heavier you should try a 15 lbs. rebound spring, that should produce a 1.6 kilogram break BTW, I know the weights for each spring between 12 and 16 lbs. because I've tested them all. My preference is the 14 lbs. rebound spring because I find the trigger weight perfect and it also provides a good crisp trigger return.

Nope. The MIM "looks like the flash chromed parts" are flash chromed. It has a nasty habit of flaking off.