I'm pretty good at working on guns, but am not a S&W expert by any means. So I thought I'd ask for thoughts here.

What I would like to do is put together a .44 mag version of a S&W 1917.

In looking into that I have seen that my resources for acquiring N frames are limited. Haven't been able to find just the N frame either with or without internals. Since I don't want adjustable sights, my options are even more limited. Thus far I have found that the only fixed sight N frames are either already 1917 N frames (can't find those), 38-45 "heavy duty" N frames (can't find those) or model 58 (.41 mag) N frames and can't find those either.

Doesn't seem to be any fixed sight N frames (just the frames either with or without internal lockworks, I don't want an entire revolver, just the frame) out there. At least none that I could find. Could use some help finding one.

Anyway....Once a fixed sight N frame (hopefully with lock internals but without the barrel, yoke and cylinder) was acquired, I was wondering if I could put a 5 & 1/2 inch .44 special tapered (pencil) barrel on it that has the same half moon front sight as the 1917. Do all N frames have the same barrel threads?

Then I was thinking of getting a .44 mag yoke and cylinder. Would that .44 mag cylinder and yoke fit into any N frame? I also wanted to use the 1917 extractor rod with the big end on it. (That's one thing I don't like about the S&W heritage models, they don't use the same big end extractor rod.) To finish it off, I'd put aftermarket round top 1917 grips on it.

Then I'd have a .44 mag that looked like a clone of a 1917 which is my absolute favorite style revolver. I own a fine commercial .45 acp 1917 already. Now I'd like to put together one in 44 mag. I have a mill and lathe and tools to do the job. Just need to know if it's possible and where to get the frame. All the other stuff I can find. Already have found many .44 mag yokes and cylinders as well as the 1917 big end ejector rod. Haven't searched for a 5 & 1/2 inch .44 special barrel yet, but I'm sure I could probably find one.

To preempt the questions of "Why?", it's because I want a 1917 looking clone in .44 mag.


A little help with your thoughts and expertise?

Thanks.

.

I'd like to say that using a 1917 frame to build a 44 magnum off is a mistake. These frames were not designed for those pressures. 45acp yes but not 44 magnum. You could put the best barrel, cylinder and all the other neccessary parts on that revolver and I would not want to be within 25 feet of where it's going to be fired. Maybe it won't go on the first shot but somewhere down the line it will. Just my personal opinion.
Frank

Frank, I believe you read something into this that was not there. I never said I was specifically going to use a 1917 frame. The S&W .41 magnum fixed sight model 58 also is an N frame, and it is more modern and made to withstand modern ammo pressures. I could also just use a .44 magnum frame (if I could find just the frame alone).

Although I never said I would specifically necessarily be using a 1917 frame itself, what exactly would you have against using a 1917 N frame? Please explain what forces and pressures would be exerted upon a 1917 N frame that would cause it to fail when using a modern .44 magnum cylinder? Since the case expands against the cylinder walls, that lessens the amount of force the fired case has against the recoil shield doesn't it? Why would you think the recoil shield of a 1917 N frame would not take that force?


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The 1917 frame, IIRC, was the same as the Second Model Hand Ejector, which was quite popular in .44 Special chambering. The firing pressures are not limited to the cyl. and recoil shield, but are also transmitted to the frame that supports it all. HE frames were simply not made of materials suitable for magnum-level loads. If you could match up a Model 58 frame with a 2nd HE barrel, you'd still have to shorten the bbl to the 5 1/2" of the 1917, and dealing with .44 Magnum recoil through the low-top service stocks of the 1917 would be, shall we say, challenging. Having said all that, it sounds like an interesting project - please do keep us posted on its progress.

Larry

I would like to add my three cents to the idea of using an M1917 frame to build a .44 Magnum.

Not all N frames are the same. The metallurgy of 1918 S&W N frames and even up to the WWII era are simply NOT up to the same standards as that of post 1950s N frames.

True, any N frame barrel can be fitted to an older frame, and a modern cylinder and crane can also be fitted. The reason it is not a good idea is because the .44 Magnum operating pressures are several times what the PROOF pressures of the .45 ACP and .44 Special. It's been proven many times by ill-advised conversions that the older frames will simply not withstand even light use of the magnum cartridges. S&W for the longest time simply refused to sell magnum revolver components, even to qualified gunsmiths. Not only barrel breech pressures, but cylinder radial forces and backthrust against the recoil shield are several times greater for the magnum cartridge.

I never specified I would be using a 1917 frame, (I just want a 1917 LOOKING .44 mag clone, it doesn't have to have an actual 1917 frame). Since it seems the consensus is that using an actual 1917 frame would not be a good idea due to its metallurgy, what fixed sight N frame would be best to use? Wanting fixed sights and in blue, am I limited to the model 58 frame? Because model 58's being low in production numbers have become collector items and are hard to find plus expensive, much less just finding a frame. Suggestions?





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Not to hijack but I find this thread very interesting. I have a first year production 1917 (nickle plated with shortened barrel that I like) but is in need of some TLC to the point that I pondered a caliber conversion to .44 Special. It seems that compatible barrel & cylinders are hard to find, at least for me.
I've got a new idea but not certain if feasible and what better place to ask than here. I'll start a new thread so not to hijack this one any further though. Thanks and good luck to the OP in his endeavors. Sounds like an interesting project.

seems you are looking for an old look w a magnum cartridge.
why not take a .44 magnum and screw in an older, .44 special barrel w/the half moon front sight, or just change out the sight on a modern barrel.
i think the older sight is the basis for the "look" you want.

What you will want is a .38/44 Heavy Duty frame (late post-war) or a Model 58 frame. Yes, you can fit a .44 barrel and cylinder to those.

__________________
Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I don't think you have much chance of finding a suitable frame just laying around loose. I have never seen or heard reliably of one and have not seen a custom gun like you are talking about made other than by stripping down an existing revolver.

That said, there have been some fixed sight S&W .44 magnums made. Barrels are short and would have to be replaced to get the style you want.

A fully equipped and skilled gunsmith could convert adjustable to fixed with welding and machining. H. Bowen has done it - he once faked up a Redhawk to look sort of like a 1917 - and there was a shop in my area converting Ruger Blackhawks to look more like SAAs long before the Vaquero came out.

Bill,

The heat treatment of the magnum revolvers is different from that of standard caliber revolvers. I have a M544 S&W in .44-40, made in 1986, and I discussed installing a .44 Magnum cylinder in it. Mr Roy Jinks, the factory historian, was against it because the heat treatment, even in a revolver this new, was different than what the magum revolvers receive.

The better bet would be to use a M58 frame. To acheive that 1917 look, you would have to change the contour of the frame somewhat, as a M58 uses a bull barrel and the 1917 is a tapered barrel. You may be able to get a M21-4 barrel, which is a tapered 4" .44 Special barrel, with a pinned-in half moon front sight.

One option is to buy a M58 and sell the parts that you won't be using-barrel & cylinder, although it would be fairly easy just to rechamber the .41 cylinder to .44, and that cylinder is already fitted to the frame.

It IS possible to find a frame. I have rebuilt two 1917 barreled frames that I bought in the last 6 years. However, frames don't pop up on the market that often.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Easiest way to get a "retro" looking 44 Mag is get an early Model of 1955. Ala Dirty Harry.

There have been a very few fixed-sight model 29s produced:

Model 29-58, A "Gripping" Story

I doubt you'd want to use one of these for a conversion. If you are planning to shoot full .44 Magnums, as others stated your best alternatives would be a model 58 or 520, both N frame with fixed sights. Both of these are pretty expensive donor guns - $700-1100.

Then, a 5.5" barrel...this wasn't a standard length in .44, so you'd have to have one made up from a 6.5" .44 Special (not easy to find), including a shortened forcing cone due to the longer cylinder and relocated front sight, which would need to be regulated for your favorite load.

I'd say quite an elaborate and expensive project, should you decide to take it on.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Another possibility would be to use an adjuatable sight N frame and change the rear sight to a fixed extreme duty sight that smooths things up there.

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Take a Model 28, re-chamber cyl to 44mag,,rebore bbl to 44cal.
Remove rib from bbl leaving a portion at the muzzle to be filed to shape as the front sight base.
Pin in a new front sight 1/2 moon shape blade front sight.

Remove the adj rear sight from the frame. Fill the sight slot and recontour frame to M&P style.
You need to groove the top of the frame,, thin the top of the bbl ring to remove the portion of the M28 rib that remains and bevel it's front edge. Also machine the small fixed rear sight into the groove.
...just make it look like a 1917..
Sight slot can be filled by either TIG welding if you have a competent welder and trust their abilitys.
Or the slot can be filled with a close fitted separate piece of steel that is simply soldered into place.
With this option, the revolver will need to be refinished in a plated finish like nickle or hard chrome to cover the solder joint line.

You end up with an M&P fixed sighted N frame.
If you start with a 6" bbl Mod 28, you have the option to make the bbl length on you custom revolver anything from 3 1/2 to 6" as a portion of the integral bbl rib is used as the new front sight base.

I don't have any tech info to add. I just wanted to say it's a cool idea for a gun.

Thanks for the info fellas. I still want to make an N frame .44 mag 1917 clone, but that project will be on hold until I finish this project I just won at an online auction yesterday (I won't likely attempt making this one a .44 mag).....

Won this rusty locked up S&W 1917 snubbie at auction yesterday




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The consensus is that using an N frame from a S&W 1917 is ill advised for converting the 1917 to .44 magnum because it wasn't heat treated for those pressures. I understand that.

Which brings me to this question. What about cyrogenic treating of the frame? Would that work to do the same thing as properly heat treating an N frame for .44 magnum pressures?

I have a good friend who has a friend who does that cyrogenic receiver treating. My friend dipped several Chinese M1a receivers using that cyrogenic method (liquid nitrogen?) so that they would be up to U.S. military spec hardness. (Although I have a Chinese M1a that hasn't been treated like that and I have no problems with thousands of rounds fired).

I probably would have to ask S&W what their .44 magnum frame heat treating hardness is to know what to replicate using the cyrogenic treatment. But my question is, do any of you know about this kind of cyrogenic metal hardening treatment that basically does the same as heat treating and does anyone here know if it would work to bring a S&W 1917 frame up to .44 magnum hardness/heat treating specs?


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How about one of the recent classic 21s, like the thunder ranch? Then you're just in for the mag cylinder, though it may be longer and need fitting.
I used to read about smiths reboring 38/44 and .357 cylinders to .44 spl & .45 colt before SW started making those calibers I'n the 80s.

I looked at the recent S&W "classics" series and there are two things about them that I don't like, and that are not on the original profile of the S&W 1917. Those are....

1. The "classics" series that resembles the 1917, does not have the big end on the ejector rod like the 1917 has. Instead the "classics" version that looks somewhat like an original 1917 has a straight end ejector rod that is the same diameter as the rest of the rod.

2. The "classics" series has that ugly lock hole just above the cylinder release button.

Both things I don't like about the "classics" series version that resembles the original 1917.

Still wondering about the viability of cyrogenically treating an original 1917 N frame to bring it up to .44 magnum specs. And if that would work, would I also have to cyrogenically treat the sideplate as well, or just the main frame?



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Cyrogenic treating of the N frame metal? Anyone?


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Bill,

Heat treating is science unto it's self.

Re: cryogenictreatment

As to building a 44 mag. with the astics of an older model,

would require a pretty good toolroom set-up...

A model 29 could be re-worked to the configeration your looking for.
But would cost more than finding a good M58 to start with as a flatform.

If I were going to undertake such a project...I'd start with a M58, re-chamber to 44 mag.
or install a counter bored 44 mag. cylinder. (Other model frames might not take the preasures involved,
as frame stretch will increase head space, cylinder barrel gap and just plain ol end shake.)

Next I'd take a 6" 44 magnum barrel and machine it to the desired length, remove rib (leaving a sight base), ejector rod housing, etc...

You'll need to work around the the ejector rod locking pin housing or dovetail/solder a replacement on.
Mill the flat for clearance to the ejector rod and knob.
I've install the larger pre-war style knob on newer left-hand threaded rods, works and looks ok.

Like anyother custom project, it jest takes time and money.


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

This sounds like a very interesting project. There is a company called FAMCO ( Florida Arms Manufacturer of Pistol, Revolver and Rifle Parts ) that makes revolver cylinders and frames to order at what I hear are reasonable prices, but I don't know if they do retail.

if you intend to take a model 58 frame and build this gun off of it, might I suggest buying a new 58 classic? Since you would be modifying the thing anyway, it wouldn't take much to remove and plug the lock, plus you can just order one instead of waiting for an original model 58 to turn up.

Thanks for all the responses and advice on a project to build a fixed sighted .44 magnum that looks like a 1917 fellas.

Various different option here have been discussed. Staggolee, thanks for that link to Florida Arms manufacturing company which is also MVB industries. Their website does show that they can manufacture revolver frames. So I called them and they said their minimum volume is 100 units. So that's out.

Keith44special, thanks for that link on the article on cryogenic treatment of metal. I read the whole thing and it was very informative in letting me know that cryogenic treatment is not a substitute for heat treating, but is an add on and extension that augments heat treatment. The article informed me that I can't just get a 1917 frame cryogenically treated to enable it to withstand .44 magnum pressures without first having the frame heat treated.

I have taken into account all the advice and suggestions given by everyone here. I have tried to buy a model 58, a 38/44 model heavy duty and am still bidding on a chance to get a model 520, all N frames that I could use to convert to a .44 magnum that looks like a 1917 only with four instead of five screws. But here's the problem with that. Model 58's have become collector pieces that are not only too expensive to use for this project, but would (unless in bad shape already) would be a shame to mess them up from their original configuration to turn into a .44 magnum that looks like a 1917. If I could find a rusty bulged barrel model 58, or the same in a model 38/44 or 520 frame (the frame being all I need), then that would be different. But so far I haven't been able to find anything like that. The same story is true for a .357 model 520 which is the only .357 N frame made with fixed sights, and it also is too expensive and there were only three thousand of them made for the New York state police which cancelled the order and S&W sold them to a vendor who then resold them. They too are now an expensive collector's item and would be a shame to mess up from their collector configuration. Same is true of the heavy duty 38/44's. So any N frame S&W that is fixed sighted is getting so expensive and not to mention scarce to find, and I haven't been able to find any in bad shape (but with a good frame) at a reasonable price, that it is becoming not an option to go that way.

I could probably find a dogged out model 28 but I don't want to have to have the rear sight cutout welded in and the groove in the top strap created for a fixed sight. So that option is out.

Which leads me to my next question (if anyone knows).

If I could find a reasonably priced fixed sighted N frame, that everything else was messed up on, (bulged barrel, etc), that would be great and of course I would use that, but it would still be a four screw setup instead of the five screw of the 1917. Plus it would have a shorter hammer throw than the 1917 has. I could live with either or both of those if I could find a decently priced frame only, but I can't find one that isn't a collector's item. So....here's my question.

Since I'd really like it to be as much like a 1917 as possible, and since I have found out that cryogenic treatment is simply an augment to heat treating and not a replacement for it, and since the 1917 already has the longer hammer throw and already is a five screw frame, would it be possible for me to send a 1917 frame to Smith and Wesson and have them heat treat it for me to .44 magnum specs? Then if I wanted to strengthen it further, I could have it cryongnically treated also, or not.

I had read scuttlebutt somewhere that Smith and Wesson no longer would refinish or repair 1917's. Is that true? But I don't want one repaired or refinished, I just want its frame heat treated to .44 magnum specs and perhaps a .44 special barrel heat treated to .44 mag specs too.

Also, even though the 1917 is an N frame, is there any extra metal thickness in the frame itself in a .44 magnum that the 1917 does not have? I know the front of the top strap contour is different on the 1917 frame because of the tapered barrel, but that isn't what I mean. What I mean is,...if a 1917 frame were to be heat treated to properly withstand .44 magnum specs, is there any less metal in critical areas of the frame of a 1917 that a model 29 frame would have more of, that would make using a 1917 frame that had been re-heat treated to .44 mag specs unsafe to use?

I'd really like to do this project, but I fear that unless I could get a 1917 frame heat treated to .44 mag specs, it wouldn't be impossible to do, but it would certainly be improbable that I would find a fixed sighted N frame that would hold .44 mag pressures without it being cost prohibitive and or messing up a model that is already a collector's item.

So, anyone know if S&W would heat treat a 1917 frame for me to .44 mag specs? Is what I'm asking even possible to do and is the almost century old metal of the 1917 frame even the same type of steel that would be capable of being re-heat treated to .44 mag specs?

This seems like my best option (if even possible and if S&W would do it) given the things I've discussed above, unless I just get incredibly lucky and find a fixed sighted N frame (frames alone simply aren't around) or one that has a bulged barrel for a reasonable price and is rusty so I wouldn't be messing up a collector's item.


.

I suspect not, as the factory will not even refinish a pre-model stamped gun due to lack of parts for such guns in case they find something wrong. However, it couldn't hurt to give the Performance Center a call and ask.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

One last question that I hadn't earlier considered, is this.

I had planned to buy a .44 mag cylinder separately and no problem with finding that. So my earlier only concern was to acquire a fixed sight N frame only that would hold .44 mag pressure specs. I had planned to get a 6 inch .44 special barrel and cut it down to the 5 & 1/2 inches of the 1917, and then weld the front sight back on. But what I hadn't earlier considered was whether or not the .44 special barrel would have to be re-heat treated to withstand .44 mag pressures too. Would it? Or would I be okay with just a .44 special barrel without any re-heat treating to .44 mag specs on the barrel?



.

Also after you call, let us know either how long it takes for them to stop laughing, or how long the stony silence is.

I'm sure a modern .44 Special barrel would be fine in a .44 Magnum conversion.

I would try some of the custom gunsmiths on the heat treat question. Personally, we are talking about 90 year old steel. I'd feel much better using a M58 frame. You can sell the barrel and cylinder to recoop some of the expense.

As to the five screw "look", a bung screw (the one at the top of the sideplate) could be added and a fake front of the trigger guard screw could be added as well.

While you're throwing all of this money around, I could use a decent used riding mower to replace my push mower.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Hamilton Bowen at one time offered a 1917 style conversion for the Ruger Redhawk. Part of this conversion included welding up the topstrap and changing the gun over to fixed sights. There are pics on the internet of such converted guns. If he could do it with a Redhawk, he could certainly do it on a Smith. The factory parts available would make the project easier on an N frame.

About all this welding on the top strap......welding destroys whatever heat treat is present prior to welding. This would require re-heat treating of the frame to return it to original condition. It also introduces substantial opportunity for warping of the frame, both in the welding and in the heat treat process.

The work Mr. Bowen did on the Redhawk frame is interesting but.... that frame has a whole lot more material in the topstrap (and elsewhere) than a S&W N frame. Despite that, the operation still poses substantial opportunity for warping and would require re-heat treatment.

Obviously, it may be possible to accomplish the welding, re-heat treatment and machining without warping the frame to the point where it's no longer usable. However, it ain't gonna be cheap.

Yes, if you weld on the barrel, you have to re-heat treat the barrel. You also have the same potential warpage issues. If the .44 Spl barrel is of proper steel specification, heat treat and thickness, you might get away with it at .44 Magnum pressures. What's having your face in it's current condition worth to you?

Now then, about heat treating a 1917 frame to .44 Mag specs. Can't be done. The steels are completely different to begin with. Secondly, there's no way S&W is going to be party to any such operation. There are commerical heat treat facilities that might be willing to attempt to produce the correct hardness if you had the Rockwell hardness specifications for a modern N frame (S&W isn't going to give you those either). I expect they could determine the practicality if you had a model 29 for them to hardness test. Again, this ain't gonna be cheap. Have you priced prosthetic hands lately if there should be errors? Assuming you survive.

Your best bet is a replacement rear sight that is essentially a fixed sight that bolts into the place of the S&W adjustable. This would allow you to use a modern adjustable sight frame. The exact appearance wouldn't be that of a fixed sight revolver but it won't cost bushels of money and stands a good chance of not becoming a hand grenade at some future time.

After searching for years to no avail, I've about given up on finding a model 58 frame, or bulged barrel model 58 to use to turn into a 1917 "looking" .44 magnum. Several factors created my problem in finding a model 58 frame to use. Model 58's in good shape are too expensive, somewhat rare, and try as I might, no frames only are to be found. Soooo......

Saturday, I acquired online at Pacific auctions company, a stainless S&W model 629-3 for $475.00
Total was $555.75 after the 17% auction premium fee and will probably be another $25.00 added to my credit card for Pacific auctions to ship and insure it to my local FFL dealer, who charges $30.00 for the transfer and phone call, so I will probably have about $610.75 in it all total when I take it home.

From the auction pics that I include here, it looks pretty good but could use a good buffing by me to make the matte and scratched stainless look like nickel plate. It is missing the rear sight base completely. Here's' the pics from the auction.










I figured not too many people bid on it because of the missing rear sight base. But that's good for me since I want it to be a fixed sighted rear anyway to look like a model 1917.

Now here's what I need some help in finding. I have heard that there are fixed sight base inserts that will fit right into my frame's adjustable rear sight cutout and that they can be silver soldered in place. With my 629-3 frame being stainless, a bit of buffing around that area and you couldn't even tell it wasn't originally made that way.

1. Does anyone know where I can find that fixed sight insert for an N frame that totally replaces the adjustable rear sight base? That once silver soldered in place, would completely fill in my old adjustable rear sight base cutout? I'd prefer stainless if possible.

2. Where can I find the clamshell type jig for holding the S&W N frame to remove various barrels? I need that so I can remove my 6 inch barrel to lathe it to be a 5&1/2 inch tapered barrel while keeping a small portion of the top rib to attach/pin a half moon front sight on. I'll also be removing the ejector shroud except for the portion that holds the pin and spring as well as notching the bottom of the barrel to accept the large knob of a 1917 ejector rod I'll be adapting to use on the 629-3. I'd also like to have that barrel removing jig so I can change out barrels on my other 1917's if necessary.

If I can get those two items, this project is do'able. Any info on questions 1 and 2 would be greatly appreciated.



.

Cylinder & Slide offers a fixed sight that replaces the later style adjustable sights. The trouble is, they won't fit your revolver unless you machine your frame. You bought a -3 gun, it has the old style rear sight that was squared at the front. The aftermarket sights are for the later guns. I'm not aware of any rear sight that would do what you want, and look original. BTW, your gun was built in the pre- "endurance package" era. I had one, and it really seemed to age quickly with full power loads. Hopefully your experiences will be more positive than mine were. I did notice a couple of M28s & M58s on Gunbroker for about the same money. Regardless, it looks like you have an interesting project ahead of you. Please keep us posted as to how it works out.

Best wishes...

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...e+wrench&ksubm

I'm curious how you will machine around the front locking lug. Other wise good luck with your project and show us the end result.

The endurance package was introduced with the 629-2E. I'm not certain that some of the endurance features were not added until later but I've read that all were in place in the 629-3.

358156hp, while you are right about the top strap being cut for the old style square rear sight, you are wrong about not having the endurance package. This is a 629-3, not a 29-3 and it does have the endurance package. The elongated stop cut in the cylinder is a dead giveaway for the endurance package.

Bill_in_fl, good luck with your project. I hope you keep us updated on your progress as having a 44 Mag chambered, stainless 1917 look-a-like will be and interesting and different project and make a nice one of a kind revolver.

I take a shot. I am not a metallurgist, but I do make custom knives and have studied steel and heat treating quite well.

First lets look at basic tool steel states

Pearlite is a common microstructure occurring in many grades of steels. Normal for many structural and none hardened steels.

Martensite is formed in carbon steels by the rapid cooling (quenching) of austenite at such a high rate that carbon atoms do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure in large enough quantities to form cementite (Fe3C). As a result, the face-centered cubic austenite transforms to a highly strained body-centered tetragonal form of ferrite that is supersaturated with carbon. The shear deformations that result produce large numbers of dislocations, which is a primary strengthening mechanism of steels. The highest hardness of a pearlitic steel is 400 Brinell whereas martensite can achieve 700 Brinell.[2]

This is an not a natural state and is used in things like springs, cutting edges, and objects subject to high loads.

austenite. The state that steel goes into when heated above its critical temp and the carbon defuses from the iron. Usually around 1400f depending on alloy.

Steel is not a molecule of carbon and iron, but more of a crystal like bond.

How does all this relate to a S&W frame? I will try to keep it simple but its not.

When the frame is forged the steel must be heated far beyond the temp required to form austenite. When this occurs the crstal like bonds are enlargged. Grain growth. Large grains are not as strong and easier to break down. They need to be reset to achieve more strength and better bonds. This requires normilization. This can be achieved by a couple methods, all evolving taking the steel back to near its critical temp (around 1400) and allowing it to slowly cool. Usually this is repeated several times forming uniform and smaller grains of pearlite. Now the steel is stronger. It can now be hardened to form martensite by heating to its critical temp and quenching. Quenching in effect freezes the carbon/iron matrix in a different state and forming a different type of "crystal". But, this also causes stresses to be induced. These can be relaxed and modified by TEMPERING. Normally the higher the temperature used tto temper produces softer and tougher steel. The same piece of 1095 tool steel tempered to 350f will be hard like a file, but have a low elastic limit like a file. Very hard but easy to snap. The same piece tempered to 850 f will become a spring and be softer yet have a higher elastic limit and flex way farther before it fails. Even higher temps will result in a softer hardness, but give even better elastic limit. (think revolver frame). All the S&W frames I have tested are about the same hardness as mild steel, by the way. Soft, but tough.

There are basically 3 types of steel carbon mixtures leaving alloying out of it. Those with less carbon than the steel can use, those with near the optimum amount (appox. 0.84%) it can use and those with an excess. If I add an alloy like chrome or molybdenum the amount of carbon need to be optimum or over changes. If things like tungsten and vanadium are added and the amount of carbon is higher than the amount optimum for the iron the carbon will bond with the tungsten or vanadium and from carbides which although very hard also induce brittleness as the form in the grain boundaries. This can be good for holding an edge, but,l bad for things like a revolver frame.

Most gun receivers and frames are a type of 4140 chrome moly alloy. I am sure modern S&W frames are a similar alloy. Older frames less likely. Anyway these type alloys DO NOT have excess carbon to for carbides.

Now onto cryogenic treating of steels. When high alloy steels with an abundance of carbon are hardened to form martinsite some of the steel fails to convert from austenite to martensite and remains. This can be converted to martensite by continued cooling past normal temps. At appox -100f the majority will convert. I ofen use dry ice and acetone to achieve this effect in high alloy knife blades. IT WON'T DO ANYTHING TO CORRECTLY HT STEELS WITH OUT AN EXCESS OF CARBON. A furthe effect can be had by going colder like emerging in liquid nitrogen -320f. Long soaks at this temp can cause reduced size in the carbides formed in high alloy steels. This is good for high alloy carbide steels as they become less brittle. , But tool steels like 4140 will not be effected to any measurable amount as they have no carbides. Yo might achieve very very small amounts od=f deminsional stability, but thats about all.

SO, NO cryogenics will have no real effect on a 1917 frame or any other S&W frame for that matter. IMHO such treatments of rifle barrels and other components is mostly for sales hype and very little else.

Well dash it all anyway. I was apparently off a digit. My apologies. I was expecting to see an "E" on the -3 for some reason.