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  #1  
Old 04-20-2012, 01:19 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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460V SA Trigger Pull 460V SA Trigger Pull 460V SA Trigger Pull 460V SA Trigger Pull 460V SA Trigger Pull  
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Default 460V SA Trigger Pull

Sorry guys this has to be a often asked question but my searches have only returned answers that I didn't like.
My 460V has a SA pull weight of 4.5+ lbs and I can't live with that. Answers I've found keep saying not to mess with the X frames pull due to the weapon becoming more prone to double fires. I'm not sure what the DA pull is, it's off my scale, but that doesn't really matter to me. I'm 62 years old, 160lbs and no way do I shoot this monster in DA. But I do want a much better SA pull for target-hunting use, SO. I've had the gun for a year now and put about 1K rounds downrange and dry-fired extensively. DA smoothed up nice but SA pull weight still just sucks.
Can anyone point me to a combination of springs, action work, whatever; that will allow me to get the SA pull to break in the sub 3lb range? I have a safe full of other handguns that I've all tuned to break cleanly at about 2.5lbs and need this guy to be close to that.
TIA,
Sal
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:11 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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IMO if you put a 13 lbs. rebound spring into the rebound slide you'll have a SA trigger pull in the2.7 lbs. range. If you insist on getting it to break right at 2.5 lbs you'll need a 12 lbs. rebound spring and have to do a bit of work on the trigger and rebound slide to insure they will return properly with a rebound spring that light.

Personally, I'd stop at 2.7 lbs. and call it good, even if the trigger and rebound slide are tuned perfectly the trigger return can be lazy and it can also cause issues with the trigger lever coming out of position during recoil. BTW, this could also happen with a 13 lbs. rebound spring with the higher level of recoil in the 460. If you find that the lockwork has "frozen" odds are good that the trigger lever that drives the rebound slide has popped out of the recess in the rebound slide. "Sometimes" you can get that lever to drop back into place by carefully manipulating the hammer and trigger. Basically, pull the hammer back just a tiny bit and nudge the trigger forward slightly. Don't force anything but try this a few times and see if that frees up the lockwork. If it doesn't you'll have to pull the sideplate and put things correct manually. Naturally if this does happen you'll also want to go up on the weight of the rebound spring in 1 lbs. increments until the that trigger lever stays in place.

BTW, I learned about the trigger lever issue from experience. In my case the cause was a 12 lbs. rebound spring without freeing up the trigger and rebound slide. Gun worked fine in dry firing but under live fire the lockwork froze up on me 3 times. That is also how I learned that a bit of manipulation of the hammer and trigger could get that trigger lever to drop back in place. However, after the third time I packed up and went home. Now my 610 has a 14 lbs. rebound spring and the function is 100% reliable. BTW, the SA trigger breaks at 3 lbs. 2 ounces with that 14 lbs. rebound spring.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:02 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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scooter123,
Thanks so much for the reply!
Yes 2.7 lbs would be acceptable, in fact I'd be ecstatic if I can get the 460 there.
I do plan on doing a full action polish job when I open er up and with have all friction areas running glass smooth. Hopefully this will avoid the trigger lever issue you've brought to my attention.
Will be collecting some parts and going to work on this 460V in the near future. I also have a LNIB 60-10 on the way which is going to get the same type of treatment. May use it as my S&W action job guinea pig before I crack open the big boy. Should have the 60-10 on my bench within a week.

So you believe that kind of reduction in SA pull is achievable without having to go to a reduced power mainspring?
Interesting.
Thanks Again,
Sal
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:19 AM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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I did a lot of controlled experimenting with my 620 to see the effects of various spring changes on these lockworks. The weight of the mainspring has VERY LITTLE effect on the single action trigger weight, that is determined by the weight of the rebound spring or the angle of the single action sear on the trigger.

Personally I feel that modifying the single action sear on the trigger is a BAD move. Yes, doing this will result in a lighter SA trigger. However, this is achieved by stoning the sear to an "assist angle" so that the sear on the hammer is sort of sliding downhill against the sear on the trigger. This means that ALL of the pressure is bearing on the very tip of the sear on the hammer. End result is that in time the sear on the hammer will wear and you'll find you have issues with Push Off.

I keep my triggers completely stock and use only the rebound spring to tune the weight of the single action trigger. While this won't permit a trigger that breaks below 2 lbs. that isn't a problem for me, I don't like shooting with a sub 2 lbs. trigger.

Now for a note on your model 60. That is that the model 60 uses a coil mainspring lockwork. In addition the hammers and triggers on the J frame use smaller components in regards to leverage points. As a result, you can't tune them using the exact same methods as the larger frames. Since I have wrist issues that limit my tolerance for recoil I have avioded the J frames so my experience with them is Nill. However, I suspect that you'll find you need a lighter rebound spring to achieve the effect of a slightly heavier rebound spring in one of the larger frames. In addition from what I've seen posted it's just not possible to get reliable ignition from a J frame with a DA trigger weight under 11 lbs. Based on what I've read, in broad strokes you should plan on a 11.5 lbs. DA trigger and a 4 lbs. SA trigger in that model 60 and call it good at that point.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:08 AM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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Thanks Again Scooter123!
Surprised you say a 4 lb SA trigger is about it for the Model 60-10 but I'll find out I guess. In any case unlike the 460, the DA pull will have priority here. Going for as light and smooth DA action as possible. Got a Jerry Miculek S&W trigger job dvd coming, hoping to learn some tricks from him.
Totally agree with you about inducing a negative angle to the sear interface, you MUST always retain a positive angle there of the gun will become dangerous. Any improvement done to the interface must come from either a reduction of surface area, a smoothing of the surface areas, or both. Nice thing about the S&W side plate design is that it's lets you inspect the interface under a microscope while actually installed in the gun. Then you can see exactly what you can get away with and what you can't.
I'll let you know how things come out.
Sal

Last edited by Sal1950; 04-21-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:59 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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Finished what I'll call Round 1 in the tuneup of my 460V just last night and here is what I've found so far.
First I want to thank and give credit to Jerry Miculek and the guys at Clark Custom for their "S&W Trigger Job" DVD. I've been tuning Ruger wheelguns, 1911s, and various other semi-autos for 25+ years but it's great to have a pro sit down and point out all the important friction points, etc; before starting a project on a unknown platform.

The info at this point is pretty short and sweet.
Completely dis-assembled the 460 and stoned-polished the complete action as outlined in the video. For Round 1 I didn't want to touch the hammer-sear interface or change out the mainspring but only wanted to see what could be accomplished with an action job and rebound spring change.
I first assembled the gun with a Wolff 13# RBS but trigger could not overcome the hammer spring pressure and wouldn't return. Swapped out for a 14# RBS and trigger return is just a bit sluggish but useable, I won't be speed shooting in DA anyway, LOL, and things can only improve as the action job breaks in a little. DA pull is now smooth as glass but still quite heavy (off my RCBS scale) as was expected without any change of the mainspring. The important SA number is a reduction from 5# to 3 3/4#. Still not quite what I'm looking for but a good start.

Round 2 will incorporate some mainspring lighting and a VERY slight smoothing of the hammer-sear interface, learning what can be accomplished while still maintaining what I feel is a safe gun and one that will reliably ignite the hard rifle primers used in 454 and 460 ammo.
Still hoping to get that SA pull into the 2.5# range, we'll see.
Will update in a couple weeks.
Sal

PS, scooter123,
I'm doing a writeup on what I've done and learned so far with my 60-10. I should appear in this section shortly.

Last edited by Sal1950; 05-01-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:45 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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I'm not surprized your DA pull is off the chart with the mainspring at full power. My recently purchased S&W's ALL had DA trigger weights between 12 and 12.5 lbs. with the factory mainspring at full power.

What I've been doing to tune the triggers in my guns is shimming the strain screw OUT. Since nobody makes these shims I've been fabricating mine out of shim stock. Start by drilling the shim stock with a 0.147 inch diameter drill and trim them into small squares with some scissors. Then I take a Diamond burr in a Dremel and shape the outer diameter to a 0.218 inch diameter. Now a couple of tips if you want to try making these shims. First, put the shim stock between a couple of pieces of hardwood when you are drilling it, that will keep the shim stock flat and allow you do drill a clean hole. Second, you'll need some pliers that can firmly hold shim steel as thin as 0.005 inch, I had to do a bit of dressing of the jaws on a cheap pair of pliers so they would hold that thin steel tight. REading glasses are also a real help and I'll warn you that you can only get a small part of the OD with each "bite" of the pliers. Take your time and you'll get there. As for where to get diamond burrs, I got mine from a local tool supply shop, Production Tool, and they are on the Net.

Now some specifics on shimming. First, make up your shims using 0.005, 0.010, and 0.015 shim stock. Then I would suggest that you start on 2 of the 0.010 inch thick shims and check to see where your DA trigger weight breaks. My experience is that this will put you into the 9.5 lbs. to 10.0 lbs. range, which is as light as I would recomend going with the factory firing pin. I expect that you'll then find that your Single Action trigger is breaking just a tick over 3 lbs.

If you replace the factory firing pin with one from Cylinder and Slide I would recomend you set the DA trigger to 8.5 lbs and all that good. This will provide 100% ignition reliability with all the ammo brands I've been able to find locally without running the risk of a pierced primer.

Finally, I would recomend that you NOT stone the single action sear on your trigger. Simply shooting your 460 will do any needed smoothing to the single action sear surfaces and the sear step on the hammer is microscopic. This means that if you dust the sear on the trigger too aggressively that tip will tend to round over and then you'll be looking for both a new hammer and trigger because Pushoff generally pukes out the sear on the hammer quickly. I have a personal rule of NOT fooling with my single action sears because getting this interface wrong means buying new parts.

I've also avoided doing anything with my double action sears. However the reason for this is simply because I've found that simply shooting the gun cleans these surfaces up as well as I could do with a stone. That's one plus for the MIM parts used in our newer revolvers, because there properties cause them to "wear in" very very nicely.

PS; I'm looking forward to your writeup on your model 60. Everything I read indicates that the J frames smooth up well but if you try and take the double action weight below about 10.5 lbs. you end up with misfire issues.
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  #8  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:32 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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scooter123,
Thanks for your input!
I suspect your right on target with your numbers! If either by shimming the hammer spring or swapping it out for something lighter that will get the DA pull in the 8.5-9# range I'll be able to drop the rebound spring back down to the 13#er and get the SA pull in the 2.5# range I'm looking for .
I do already have a C&S extended firing pin waiting in the wings to call on if needed.
My 60-10 report is up now here,
60-10 Trigger Job
Thanks Again!
Sal

Last edited by Sal1950; 05-01-2012 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:06 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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Default Back To The Drawing Board

Back To The Drawing Board.
Well after being in and out of her about half a dozen times, polishing out some grit here and smoothing some bumps there, the action is feeling really beautiful for such a huge gun.
Got a Wilson Combat kit and installed it with the supplied mainspring and 12 lb rebound spring. She felt really good on the bench with the DA break at 9 1/4 lbs and a super crisp 3 lb SA break.
Then I had to spoil the whole thing by taking it to the range yesterday. The 460s and 454s that use rifle primers were light striking about 1 in 5 rounds in DA mode.
So it's back to the drawing board now, need to figure out how I'm going to get mainspring pressure somewhere in the middle between stock and the Wilson. Either have to apply more preload to the Wilson or back off the preload on the stocker.
OR, does anyone know if the Wolff Type 2 or the Jerry Miculek Bang springs might supply some midway pressures?
TIA,
Sal
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:05 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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Default SUCCESS!

Well after a few more months of trying a number of different variations of components, I finally found a combination that has gotten this X frame to a place that I am VERY pleased with.

I ended up with a Wolff Std Power Type 1 mainspring along with a Wilson Combat 12 lb rebound spring.
Funny thing is Wolff advertizes the Type 1 mainspring as being the same power as the factory K,.L, and N spring, well that sure isn't true, at least in a X frame.
S&W parts lists the part number for a mainspring on a X frame as the same number as on the K, L, and N frames, so I'm a bit confused. I did install a new S&W tension screw, the one in the gun was badly mushroomed, funny as I bought the gun new and it couldn't have more than 500 rounds on it total? The stock mushroomed screw measured .345 and a factory new one measured .370, so this did add a good bit of tension to the mainspring.

Final numbers are DA break at 9.50-9.75 lbs with a very smooth and consistently even pull. SA breaks at 2lb 14 oz and is glass rod sharp.
Took it to the range today and shot about 30 of my 460 reloads with CCI Large Magnum Rifle primers and about 30 454s using Remington 7 1/2 Small Rifle Bench Rest primers with ZERO light strikes shooting strictly DA.

So I guess I'll finally call this gun done, very well done, if I do say so myself.
I really enjoyed my time at the range today with it, when I ran out of stamina to shoot any more 460-454 Magnums, I ran threw about 100 45LC's just to have some more trigger time with the gun. Funny how my "Ruger Only" level 45LCs feel about like a 38 spl in the big 460V
I now really love this gun.
Sal
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:07 PM
marawuti marawuti is offline
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Default Cost & difficulty of replication?

I'm looking for a bear protection handgun and your results are very motivating.

So, what would be the likelihood that I could replicate your results based on the info you've entered here? And, what would be the final cost based on the final components you settle on?

Your results gave me hope that I can pack a bear cannon that is not an auto, i.e., appropriate caliber. The trigger pull on rental revolvers just cause too much gyration with my essential tremor. Neither my Glock 27 nor my son's duty Sig on first round DA don't cause this.

Thanks for recounting your journey and results.
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:26 PM
Sal1950 Sal1950 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marawuti View Post
I'm looking for a bear protection handgun and your results are very motivating.

So, what would be the likelihood that I could replicate your results based on the info you've entered here? And, what would be the final cost based on the final components you settle on?

Your results gave me hope that I can pack a bear cannon that is not an auto, i.e., appropriate caliber. The trigger pull on rental revolvers just cause too much gyration with my essential tremor. Neither my Glock 27 nor my son's duty Sig on first round DA don't cause this.

Thanks for recounting your journey and results.
I know this is a very old thread and I missed the above posters question over 2 years ago. Anyway I do want to add this post strictly in the name of safety for anyone else that may read this trigger tune series.
My trigger tune on this 460V is to be considered for RANGE ONLY use by experienced shooters. I would say primer ignition has been 99.9% reliable but you don't want to bet your life on the other .1%. If a misfire happens while shooting at paper it's a opp's, if it happens at a charging dangerous game it's much more serious. Also there does always remain the possibility of a double fire if fired by a shooter inexperienced with very high recoil handguns.
Please use caution and good judgement here.
Sal
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