So i picked up a model 15 for a graduation present, i love this gun, it shoots well and locks up really tight, everything is in spec from what i can tell, but i would really like to fix this one notch if possible as it concerns me. There is a 10 day wait in california, and i cannot remember if i saw this before i bought it, i have a picture of the gun and the same spot and while it looks shiny im not sure if it was on there before, i feel like i would have seen that when i checked it over, so what concerns me is it almost looks like someone dropped it when i put it in a soft case, since im not sure how else that side of the notch would get peened over.

here is a photo of the notch. Is there any way to fix it?, i obviously cannot go back to the store and ask if they dropped it, and i doubt they would say they did drop it even if i did ask and it happened. I just dont remember that being on there, and i noticed it when i got to the range yesterday.

the day i picked it up, i zoomed in on the spot which is the same as before. I tried to lighten it up and enhance it since it was a darker/blurry photo. It does look to me like it was there, any ideas? Im not complaining and i wont sell this gun i love it, its really accurate, just want to fix it.

When i put it on hold last week



Today







thanks,

Adam

That revolver has seen some significant wear. That type of damage doesn't come from a drop. It was almost certainly there when you first looked at it, unless the owner felt some remorse and did a little additional home gunsmithing in the interim. My guess is that the revolver failed to carry up on that cylinder at some point. Instead of making the required repair, which is installing an oversized hand and filing off the notches on the extractor as needed, the owner took a Dremel tool to the cylinder notch. The pistol carries up now, but it's been damaged. Only real repair is a replacement cylinder. I read posts all the time about somebody breaking out the bench grinder or the Dremel, and I cringe.

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I suspect this is a cosmetic flaw only; if you want to fix it that would require refinishing the entire cylinder, which would then not match the rest of the gun. If it works fine I would opt to leave it alone.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

IF YOU HAVE EVER WATCHED THE OLD COP MOVIES AND TV SHOWS FROM THE 50'S AND 60'S. WHERE THE OPEN THE CYLINDER TO CHECK IF IT'S LOADED AND USE A FLIP OF THE WRIST TO CLOSE IT. THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT CAUSED IT. JP

What do you mean carry up on that cylinder? And it doesn't look like any dremel work, more peened over than anything with a clear imprint of the cylinder bolt?

also it is only on the one notch, the rest are fine with almost no peening.

just trying to get more info.

You can't cause that much damage by hollywooding it once, and you'd have to hit the same cylinder notch several times in a row. That's a grinder mark.

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

To quote Hillary: "At this point what difference does it make?"

The fact is the cylinder has been irreparably damaged and the only way to fix it is to have S&W fit a new cylinder.
If you're smart, it'll BE S&W and not some local who probably knows little about the proper installation and adjustment of a revolver cylinder.

So what would i look for otherwise to assess any damage to the gun? Everything seems to lock up fine and tight, i checked it over for excessive shake, and whatnot, the bore and crown are perfect, i havent opened it up yet, but it cycles smoothly and is dead on at the range.

what did you mean by carrying up the cylinder?

i have put over 100 rounds through it without issue, so i am leaning more towards it being cosmetic, I cannot find anything wrong with it otherwise aside from the current assumption the previous owner took a dremel to the peening rather than filing and replacing the bolt stop with an oversized one.

will s&w work a firearm this old? it is 1961 manufacture

dry firing fast in double action mode will do that also. the fast rotation of cylinder stop notches against the cylinder stop banging away at each other.

S&W will work on it if they have the parts. Yes it's a cosmetic issue. I can't say it wasn't dremel work but I lean more to the cylinder being slapped closed as stated above. Carry up as I understand it is the part of the timing where the hand inside the frame is pushing on the extractor star's ratchet to advance the cylinder to the next chamber during the trigger pull (double action) or the hammer being drawn back by your thumb (single action).

wouldnt it be on all the cylinders stop notches though? Its just this one, the rest are very nice, which is what made me think someone dropped it on its side and the weight of the gun/cylinder peened the notch over

"Doesn't carry up" means that on that particular chamber, the cylinder did not completely rotate to line up with the forcing cone. As a result, the cylinder stop did not engage the cylinder notch and lock the chamber in line with the forcing cone and barrel. In order to allow the cylinder to carry up all the way, somebody widened the cylinder notch with a grinder. The cylinder stop would then engage the cylinder notch, but there'd be some wiggle. You can't cause that kind of specific damage to a cylinder notch by dropping it, unless you drop it repeatedly, from a high altitude, and it lands perfectly on the same spot each time.

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

here are the other 5 notches, none of them exibit that sort of wear.

clockwise from the damaged one

Not a chance. It is designed to be fired as quickly as you can pull the trigger.

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

ok gotcha thats what i thought, but i just considered it full lockup, or doesnt completely lock up instead of carry up.

anyways i guess my question now is, what should i look for to make sure it is ok to keep firing this gun? I've checked everythign i know to on a revolver and it checks out which is why i got it.

I plan in the future to get it refinished as it was a gift for graduation, so i dont plan on selling it, and it shoots very well for me. so as long as this is cosmetic i will continue to shoot it, and carry it, but with plans to replace the cylinder when i have the money too. I found k frame masterpiece m15 cylinders so i know where to get one if i need it.

If she shoots ok I'd leave it alone.

I have a really nice H&R 22cal revolver that I didn't inspect it very closely.
The same thing on one lug on the cylinder only worse. She was shaving bullets at the forcing cone. I took a flat piece of ground stock and hit it as I rolled the cylinder as it moved the steel the direction it had to go on the lug. Since it was a heavy burr I was able to move the slot back to its orginal position.
I checked the line up on the bore to the cylinder and it's lined up exactly like the others. This area before I fixed it looks like someone dropped it or hammered it. I didn't inspect it closely when the PO showed it to me. I did get it for almost free. Working with metals all my life and doing beyond excellent workmanship I took the challenge. The locking slot closed up a tad as it moved and needed refitting. Considering it would be junk anyway I fixed it. I have a shooter that's all. We can push or roll metal if we have too. I know this sounds crazy but it works. I believe this type of work is called peining.

I tried to purchase a new cylinder from egun parts but they sent me the wrong one.

"Carry up" is the technical term. It's not a cosmetic problem, it's a mechanical issue. As long as it carries up now, it will be fine to shoot on five cylinders. As for the sixth, you will likely begin to notice that your revolver will shave lead on rounds fired from that cylinder on occasion, and those lead shards will be ejected from the space between the forcing cone and the cylinder face. Not really a problem for the shooter, but those next to the shooter will be unhappy. At some point, that shaving will become significant as the extractor notches wear and that ground out cylinder notch wears more. The only fix is to replace the cylinder.

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

if the timing is fine and on full lockup no edges of the cylinder misalign with the chamber than i do not see it shaving lead without the timing going, as it would be inline. Nonetheless i will likely take it to my gunsmith for a better idea.

It's your revolver. I'm just offering my opinion based on what I see in a few pictures. Good luck.

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

He can carefully pein it in the direction it needs to go. Then check it for location to the bores.

if the cylinder/chambers are alligned with the bore, as they are right now, would we not assume it wouldnt be spitting lead?

but yah i just gave him a call, so hopefully he gets back to me asap. I have a holster i placed on order from simply rugged so hopefully this doesnt turn into a huge headache and costly mistake

Just watch the bolt as it drops into that particular cylinder slot and see if it does in fact drop in and seat all the way.

If the notch is damaged to the point where you can rotate the cylinder backwards by hand when the trigger is forward,,then the notch needs rebuilding or more usually the cylinder replaced.

Check the ratchet on the cylinder to make sure that particular tooth for that cylinder slot hasn't been altered or filed out of shape for some reason.

That one locking slot was worked over for some reason in the past.
I suspect an oversize locking bolt was fitted at some time. The other bolt slots probably show some force fit wear to the lead-in edge too.
In pic#3 of the orig post,,looking at the damaged locking slot, then at the lead-in edge of the slot below it on the cylinder, it looks like a bright fresh rough edge to it also.
Maybe the one slot with the damage was the starting point of the fitting process and they gave it some help from below w/a punch. Just a guess,,but check the other slots carefully too as well as the bolt itself.





The notch looks like it wasn't widened/damaged/dug out all the way to the bottom on it so the bolt drops in and should be securing the cylinder into the proper position.
The far side of the slot isn't damaged and as
long as the bolt can drop into the slot and the hand can rotate the cylinder all the way,,it should be in time when the trigger in back.
(It used to be called In or Out of Time,, Under or Short Timed,,,Over Timed (rare),,now Carry Up is used a lot to describe the cylinders rotational movement. What ever gets the point accross.)

The marks are cosmetic at that point,,smooth them out,blend them in in the refinish you are talking about doing.
They are not as bad as they look.

Peen down the hard rotation marks on the far side of each slot while doing so. Those are just from heavy use over the years.
Rotational spin especially during DA use is stopped abruptly by the small bolt and slot. Something has to give and it's the metal of the cylinder slot that upsets and peens upward from the force. You usually see it more on N frames than K's, but any of them can show it.

dear owner. to check the wear on the hand/transporter, just give the cylinder a slight recistance by laying your finger on the side of the cylinder. then slowly cock the hammer. when it locks in single action the cylinderstop should be fully into the cylinder. if not you need a oversized hand. for the damage on your cylinder: the lead in side does not realy assist in locking up your cylinder, your hand does. there is no way your cylinder is turning clockwise as long as the trigger is backwards. the lead in is there to prevent the cylinder from flying past the cylinderstop. i once made my cylinderstop drop down late, because i hated the marks, but the cylinder kept passing the correct chamber. so, bottom line check if it drops in fully then you re ok. get rid of the burrs and reblue, some time ..
Remember 1 thing, as long as you have all the parts there is NO reason to shred a smith!

Turning or trying to turn the cylinder 'backwards' (clockwise) is just a simple repair test done w/o the hand in place in the mechanism.
Or w/o the trigger/hand mechanism in place at all.
Whichever you find easier while working on it.

You want to see if the bolt can drop freely and securely in that troubled & damaged looking slot all by itself and lock the cylinder secure from turning in both directions. It must drop all the way in the slot and not be able to be rotated by hand out of engagement in either direction to be correct.

The bolt is designed to secure it by itself from rotation in either direction,,not the hand.
If you can rotate it back out of engagement, the slot is damaged to the point where it needs to be built up (on the lead-in side in this case) ,or cyl replaced.

Yes the gun will work with no shoulder on the lead in side of the slot but the hand takes the rotational stress during use and firing. It wasn't designed that way. Some other revolver designs are though.

Something that's easy & quick to check.
No specialty tools required,,just some good observation and some of us need magnification up close.
It will clearly show a problem,,or not.
No use in jumping into fitting new hands and refitting bolts, ect till you even see if the cylinder is OK to start with.

Can't say I have ever seen that kind of extensive sheering of metal on a cylinder notch from normal firing or dry firing for that matter.

The enlarged photo shows clearly that the metal is torn or rolled outward which signifies that what ever or however the notch was damaged it was done by the bolt coming OUT of the notch, not going in. The fact that you only have ONE damaged notch leads me to think that the damage MIGHT have been caused by human interaction and not shooting.

The torn and deformed metal should be removed carefully and you might just luck out and still have enough notch depth remaining to lock up the cylinder correctly on that chamber. At this point you have nothing to loose by trying and if it slips you are in need of a new cylinder.

Chief38

First thing that popped into my mind also JP. After reading through the thread, I would add:
"You bought a piece that was rode hard and put away wet!" (Pardon the honesty!)

what do you make of this? is this normal on the bolt slot in the frame? it looks like an indentation of some sort? Do you think the gun was dropped when the hammer was cocked back on the burred out cylinder/bolt stop notch, (dropped on the right side if your looking down the sights) and then the bolt stop peened the leade in side of the notch as well as indenting the frame?

That is why somebody took a dremel to a cylinder notch . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Looks like a fix done less than beautifully.

If it were mine, I'd shoot it until (if ever) there is a function problem.

I wouldn't sink more money into it, including refinishing it.

You have a good shooter you don't have to baby.

Buy a better example if this bothers you too much.

Refinishing that revolver, perhaps replacing the cylinder and other parts, will cost more than a great replacement revolver.

The time to walk away from 'fixing' that revolver is now.

Now you have a revolver that works and that you don't need to worry about acquiring additional blemishes.

You can throw it in your glove compartment, your briefcase, your truck floor or wherever and not worry about reducing value or acquiring additional cosmetic dents and dings.

Save your money to use on another M15 in better condition.

Don't waste your money trying to improve the cosmetics.

Just my opinion, of course.

Hi Adam. You gathered a lot of posts by now, time for a (in between) wrap-up.
This new issue with the worn slot in the frame makes sense. This gun is not dropped, cocked or not, nor Hollywooded (do they really think we close guns soflty with ipsc? get on youtube!) Anyway, for getting this damage the cylinder needs to be rotated with lumb force. No way that's gonna happen while dropping.
Looking at the side of the damage it fits perfectly with the damage of the cylinder: some one probably got a stuck bullet in the cone and needed to open the gun (whitout knowing how to)
BTW if it ever happens to you. Get a cupper or aluminium rod and hit the bullet, through the barrel, with sharp blows, back in. Is the only way.
ALLWAYS TREAT THE GUN AS BEING LOADED SO DON'T GET IN FRONT OF THE BARREL.
Where were we. Opening the gun with stuck bullet. That bullet ain't gonna give in. The cylinder rod is released, and brutal force is applied. So the cylinder is going to turn around the bullet after the bolt has been forced out of the cylinder.
What to do now with the damage:
(BTW seen it, done it, will do it again. have an old shot-to-pieces-ex-world-shoot ipsc N-frame)

2152hq is right. take his post 24. check if the bolt drops nicely into the cylinder for all notches. with a crispy click would be nice. look perpendicular to the side of the frame with a light background. you should be able to see it. NO grinding, a sharp tool (utility knive) is more than enough to get rid of burrs.

(I don't know if I should send you this way)
Get as much burs from around the slot in the frame back in place (is there any on the inside?). take a polished rod or so put it on and maiby you can hit it back by using a small hammer. look with every hit what is happening. start gently! after that, but that depends on how the results are, maiby you have to straighten the slot out with a small file. more like deburring. check the play around the bolt. in worst case you can thicken the bolt on the left side by (silver) soldering a thin layer of steel on it (oversized, grind of anything outside afterwards) (stanley blade or so). make the bolt tapered so it has the enlarged frame size at the bottom and the right size for the cylinder at the top. best to taper befor soldering: you will have an even thickness of added steel. maiby oversized bolts are available or even a new bolt does enough.
This is quite a job you have to like so at least put in a new spring and a bolt (when the timing is bad with the new bolt just use it for testing. you can operate it with a screwdriver if the trigger doesn't catch in, if the results are satisfying take care of the timing. new post;-) )

Remind: Like 2152hq said: the hand is not made to lock the cylinder but in your case it will.
How should I frase: if you have the choice, this is the place were the damage will bother you the least.
Once the cylinder lines out correct the forces on the bolt aint that big, it is a 38. Just don't try your luck and stay away from wadcutters.
So if above is too much husle, safe it for another day.(a new bolt is pretty eassy and won't hurt$)

After that. take my post on how to check the wear on the hand. is there a chamber that fails the test?

take post 22 of 2152hq about checking the ratchet. if they all look fine and the same ( I am pretty sure they are. they were not involved in my script of the stuck bullet) look at the hand. go/no go can be just a matter of 0,05mm. You can believe me.
That 0,05mm you might be missing can be normal wear. get a new one. that is just a drop-in action. once you get the hang of it: under 5 minutes You can have a trial first: glue a shim to the right side of the hand. Doesn't have to be top quality. A drop of tin solder could work too, just for measuring. Meausure the hand befor, drop on the tin and cut back to +0,1mm oversize and fit again. scrape of and keep testing untill it works smooth. do not force anything! if it is too thick it just is too thick. patience is a gift. go to the gunstore with youre result and get the correct thickness.

I think I made a logical post. Will read it again and refrase if needed.

So, your day has just begun. Mine ended. I'll check on you tomorrow! ;-) By!

The cylinder stop was loose and had a lot of play on my h&r in the frame slot. Instead of touching the frame slot which looked ok I purchased and installed a new one. The cylinder lockup and alignment was much better too. The cylinder stop engaged in all the slots on the cylinder and all the bores were lined up.

I promise I will never make a purchase again and leave my eye glasses at home again.

I dont think dropping or mishandling the revolver could cause the slot to look like that. Looks like someone tried to tighten up the slot by using a rounded chisel to raise an edge. Then Dremeled the raised area to fit. The cylinder would probably rotate backwards when in that slot. This "fixed" the problem but will probably wear out. I would keep an eye on it. Have it checked with a range rod for alignment.