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Old 04-17-2015, 03:13 PM
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Is "push-off" really such a big deal? Is "push-off" really such a big deal? Is "push-off" really such a big deal? Is "push-off" really such a big deal? Is "push-off" really such a big deal?  
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Default Is "push-off" really such a big deal?

I have a couple of older revolvers that suffer from push-off. Since I am the only one who shoots them and am fully aware of the problem,is it a source of major concern? FWIW,I've never dropped a gun and don't intend to start now. Opinions welcomed. Just try not to openly insult my intelligence.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:22 PM
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Hopefully you never drop any of your guns, If it were me I'd try to have it repaired.
With that being said, if your the only one that shoots them fixed or not just be careful when the gun is loaded to have the gun always pointed in a safe direction before cocking the hammer.
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Old 04-17-2015, 03:29 PM
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Default push off

It would be beneficial to you and if you want to sell the gun in the near future to have it function properly. It is an easy fix with a couple of stones. Take out the hammer and set it on a flat smooth surface such as a marble piece and lay the hammer down on the surface. Use a coarse stone and stone it flat against the notch and stone it towards you and at the end of the stroke, finish it with a curving outward swing to complete the stroke. Do this a couple of times and then switch to a finer stone and do the same. You would finish the job with a polishing stone. Easy, simple and a quick fix.

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Old 04-17-2015, 04:02 PM
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Theoretically, push off is only a problem if you shoot single action. If you only shoot double action, it is not a problem.

I would suggest, however, that if the single action feature is still in the revolver, then you should either: (1) have it PROPERLY repaired; or, (2) completely remove the single action capability rendering the revolver DAO.

Even if you are the only shooter, if you have it cocked, and it gives way, you best hope that the shot goes harmlessly down range. Sorry, but the push-off condition is so potentially dangerous, i.e. the weapon could fire when you do not intend, it is just not worth the risk. Get it repaired for your sake and the sake of everyone who shoots with you or near you at the range.
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:25 PM
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You could easily just cut the hammer spur off.
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:38 PM
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
Theoretically, push off is only a problem if you shoot single action. If you only shoot double action, it is not a problem.

I would suggest, however, that if the single action feature is still in the revolver, then you should either: (1) have it PROPERLY repaired; or, (2) completely remove the single action capability rendering the revolver DAO.

Even if you are the only shooter, if you have it cocked, and it gives way, you best hope that the shot goes harmlessly down range. Sorry, but the push-off condition is so potentially dangerous, i.e. the weapon could fire when you do not intend, it is just not worth the risk. Get it repaired for your sake and the sake of everyone who shoots with you or near you at the range.
I agree.You don't have to drop it to have an AD.
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:51 PM
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I vote for the repairs for several reasons.

First for safety. Unrepaired, the gun is not safe. At some point in time, some new shooter may want to try out "that old revolver" because they've never seen one before. And for your safety as well.

Second, if you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting or accidental discharge injuring someone with one of them, it will appear you are negligent in firearm safety by having unsafe firearms, which will undermine your credibility.

Third, one day your heirs or family may want to sell them. How will they be made fully aware of the danger if something befalls you and you don't make it home some day?

Fourth, if the problem is a broken or damaged hammer pin or trigger pin, that can only cause the push off to get worse and cause more damage to the sear.

Five, depending on how old the guns are, parts are sometimes hard to find. Get them before they are impossible to find.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:11 PM
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Good timing in this subject. Made a purchase off Gun Broker recently on a 14-3 and discovered it has 'push off'. A little deeper look shows me the trigger sear nose was beveled at some time and someone put a very very short return spring in it. Doesn't look like the SA sear notch on the hammer is botched up so this may become a learning project for me.
Curious, do you know what your SA trigger pull is? Do you know if the springs in your guns were altered at anytime? Do you know if the strain screw is original, modified or in tight? Some of these can contribute to this 'push off'. The one I have pushes off at about 5.5lbs and has a scary 1.6lb SA trigger.

The gun I received is also missing the hammer block! Yikes! I also want to say the seller on GB has been very willing to accept the return and or make compensation for the faults, one of the best sellers I have dealt with.
Karl

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Old 04-17-2015, 05:30 PM
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Liability and especially as a known liability having a gun in service with a mechanical defect could get you sued if anything bad should happen...
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:45 PM
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I have bought guns that were somebody else's problems, but the ones I own have all the safety features operable and no problems. When problems are identified, they get fixed.
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:54 PM
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It is a very big deal. I would maybe buy a used hammer for $50 & if that don't fix u got a spare. Easy enough to replace. Swapping hammers may fix one of them. I have had a couple do this 40 years ago. One by a so called gunsmith doing a trigger job which I bought a $ 70 hammer from S&W & fixed my self after I paid him $35 for the trigger job. I was lucky enough to be friends with a good gunsmith later on that we did swap out work & he taught me a lot. I worked on his cars & he would show me how to fix a gun problem. He had a red 70 Chevelle LS6 454 4 speed so I probably came out ahead.

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Old 04-17-2015, 06:37 PM
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There is push off and there is push off. A big difference between needing to push hard on the cocked hammer to get it to move off the sear, vs. just breathing on it .

However, given the relatively simple fix and/or availability of parts, personally I would get it fixed.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fat tom View Post
I have a couple of older revolvers that suffer from push-off. Since I am the only one who shoots them and am fully aware of the problem,is it a source of major concern? FWIW,I've never dropped a gun and don't intend to start now. Opinions welcomed. Just try not to openly insult my intelligence.
f.t.
As a firearms instructor I doubt anybody will TELL you to have your guns repaired but let me try to explain why you should.

If you die tomorrow and you leave the guns to somebody they may/may not know about the unsafe condition. Let's face it, it is an unsafe condition even for you. I know you would have a hard time living with yourself (even if you were dead) if a loved one or best friend was injured or killed because they did not know about it.

Secondly, I doubt the push off condition did not happen overnight. At one time it was working properly and now it is not. What if it continues to get worse until you load it up one day and the unthinkable happens. I know we all never point a gun at anything we don't want to destroy but I have had even other firearms instructors pass a loaded gun past my body. It wasn't a pleasant feeling. It does happen even to the best of us.

Thirdly, what is the reason not to get the gun(s) repaired? Even if you had to have the hammer/trigger replaced it can't be that much relative to the safety of yourself and others you care about. Most likely it could simply need the notch reworked.

FWIW: I have never many things but that doesn't mean I can't do a bunch of things such as drop firearms tomorrow.

I am a newbie here and am only offering a suggestion.

Dennis

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Old 04-17-2015, 08:04 PM
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Okay! Y'all have convinced me. Thanks for all of the replies.
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Old 04-17-2015, 08:15 PM
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Tom, arent you glad you asked? Mike 2796
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Old 04-18-2015, 01:07 AM
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As pointed out, If something happens to you will the person inheriting the gun know there is a problem with it? Will you remember it yourself in 5 years? These things happen because engagement surfaces are wearing and they only get worse - not better. If it's bad now it will only be worse 5 years from now. You also might as well repair it now while parts are at least gettable. Will they be in five years?
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:14 AM
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Yes, it should be fixed.

It puzzles me that most push off issues appear to be the result of bubba gunsmithing. Most of these guns have a 3-4lb SA pull, so it's kinda pointless to alter that.

If it hasn't been excessively "pushed off" the hammer should be fine and the trigger may be reparable with some careful stoning as depicted here:
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:20 AM
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Your way of thinking and the problem itself is an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:57 AM
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Enough already. I get it. Thanks again.
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Old 04-18-2015, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
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Enough already. I get it. Thanks again.
f.t.
Come on now Tom, you knew in the back of your mind that you needed to get them fixed, didn't you?
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Old 04-18-2015, 01:08 PM
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Bobby,If You take the Triggers out of the Guns with push off and send them to me I would be happy to stone them for You.I have done it numerous times in the past.Shoot me a E-Mail if You are interested.
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Old 04-18-2015, 01:29 PM
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Thanks Alex. I've already taken them to my local Smith.
f.t.

p.s. The trip to the shop cost me $1,000! They had a NIB 6" 16-4 that I couldn't pass up.
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:09 PM
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If that 16-4 is truly NIB, the money you spent was not a cost, it was an investment. Those are rare anyway, and to find a true NIB even more so!
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:24 PM
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In both bobsled racing and handguns, push - off is important.
Need to get it right!
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:49 PM
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If that 16-4 is truly NIB, the money you spent was not a cost, it was an investment. Those are rare anyway, and to find a true NIB even more so!
The fact of which I am keenly aware.
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Old 04-18-2015, 04:24 PM
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Okay,everybody can relax now. They're back home,all fixed up.
f.t.
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Old 04-20-2015, 11:03 PM
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A quick sharing here on a method to restore the proper angle and edge on a SA trigger sear. I bought this Power Custom Stoning jig knowing I wanted to learn to do some trigger work and here is a case where it worked well. The jig is adjustable, the wheel to the right can be moved in incremental clicks up or down from 'standard' to increase or decrease SA release. I liked the fact of offering repeat settings for all my triggers.

My trigger had a very poor edge where it appeared someone put a slight bevel on it and also had a slight burr edge roll to it so it did a poor job of sitting properly into the SA hammer sear notch, push off was quite easy.

Just to share the concept here is the jig and set up I used.....the trigger is lightly clamped to the jig on the left when this is done, a 6in Arkansas stone is recommended, I ink the surface to be done and make light passes with an oiled stone and watch for the edge to form.





I would also like to sincerely thank one of forum members who is an armorer for his assistance and willingness to share a lot of valuable and helpful information with me. Thanks Carter
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Old 04-26-2015, 01:19 PM
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Okay,everybody can relax now. They're back home,all fixed up.
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Old 04-26-2015, 03:52 PM
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What is push off?
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Old 04-26-2015, 08:00 PM
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Push off is the inability of the hammer to stay in the sear notch when applying a "light" forward pressure to the hammer when in the single action cocked position. It makes the single action a "hair trigger".
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:11 AM
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How hard is "light" pressure? I've checked with thumbs (which I don't like to do since it's not measurable and one can push hard enough to create this on pretty much any gun), I've set the gun pointing up on its hammer using nothing more than the guns weight, and lastly I've placed a 5lb weight on the hammer with the gun pointed down.

Just curious to everyone's methods.

Edit, checked my weight and it's 10lbs, not 5 like I thought.
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:11 AM
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How hard is "light" pressure? I've checked with thumbs (which I don't like to do since it's not measurable and one can push hard enough to create this on pretty much any gun), I've set the gun pointing up on its hammer using nothing more than the guns weight, and lastly I've placed a 5lb weight on the hammer with the gun pointed down.

Just curious to everyone's methods.
I have checked my 625JM and my 686-3 after doing any trigger work or springs and have applied some firm pressure to check for push off, I would imagine this may exceed 10+ lbs or more.
Just recently the used gun purchase I made tripped off pretty easy in my mind and surprised me as it is the first time I experienced push off. Using a Lyman digital trigger gage I measured it would 'pust off' at about 5lbs of pressure.

I think perhaps from this point forward maybe the correct way to evaluate is to use the gage and take it up to 10-12lbs to check for push off and stop there?
I am sure there must be a set standard to check for push off??
Karl
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:40 AM
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Default push off "standard"

This is from the S&W Armorer's manual, the closest thing to a "set standard" I can find....straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

After confirming weapon is empty...."Cock gun in single-action position. Place thumb on back of hammer with finger off trigger. With moderate pressure (not exceeding 6lbs) push the hammer forward. The hammer must not fall."
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:04 PM
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Thanks. Guess I should switch to 5lbs instead of the 10 I have. I'll go push on a scale and see what 6lbs feels like. I'm betting it's not much at all.
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Old 04-27-2015, 01:53 PM
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Well if you have big FAT fingers like me...........

they take up 3 lbs of trigger pressure, just getting into that teeny weeny trigger hole !!

I never have beans before a shoot !!
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fat tom View Post
Thanks Alex. I've already taken them to my local Smith.
f.t.

p.s. The trip to the shop cost me $1,000! They had a NIB 6" 16-4 that I couldn't pass up.
I like the beaches in SC. SC may be Gods' county, but strikes me as a place not to bring your carry gun. At least I can take it in to my condo. That said, I discovered push-off after a Bullseye match when my Python hammer failed to drop while firing single action. Instead, it fell slowly as I allowed the trigger to return forward. I found that the hammer also pushed off, so I took it to the gunsmith that worked on the action 17 years back. I showed him the push-off and he cracked "don't do that". He fixed it; I didn't ask what he did, but the trigger now feels heavier then the previous 2 1/2 #.
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