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Old 08-07-2015, 03:14 AM
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Default model 60 still locking trigger pull at 80% pull

"Problem is not the hammer block". Something is keeping the trigger from going back more than 80%. I took cover off to see what was keeping the cylinder from turning. Something is happening at 80%pull.

THEN, the whole cylinder just fell out on my lap.Is this all related?

Could the littke cylinder locks be out of place
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Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-07-2015 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:34 AM
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The front sideplate screw holds the cylinder in place. When you removed the sideplate screws it enabled the cylinder to come off. When did this problem show up? Did you have it apart, or just happened? Maybe the mainspring is out of place on the hammer? Try holding the thumbpiece for the cylinder release back and see if that makes a difference.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:04 AM
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The hammer block is not in place and it appears that the bolt is not forward where it belongs either. The cylinder can't come out if the bolt is holding it in place.

There is supposed to be a spring and pin that holds the bolt forward and I don't see it in your picture.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:51 AM
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Question

In your last post in the previous thread you indicated the gun was back together and working. Have you made any other changes since the previous problem with the hammer block was corrected?

You indicated before that the stoppage was in the trigger return phase of the cycle. Are you now saying that the action is locking up when the trigger is being pulled DA?

(I hope those are empty casings in the gun and not live ammunition!)
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Last edited by armorer951; 08-07-2015 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:08 AM
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Default Safety Firest - Unload firearms when disassembling

I hope those are empty shell casings in the cylinder and not live ammo.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:15 AM
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That is one scary picture . . .
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:19 PM
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If those are live rounds ,,, that is Just Bad Wrong !!!
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Old 08-07-2015, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
In your last post in the previous thread you indicated the gun was back together and working. Have you made any other changes since the previous problem with the hammer block was corrected?

You indicated before that the stoppage was in the trigger return phase of the cycle. Are you now saying that the action is locking up when the trigger is being pulled DA?

(I hope those are empty casings in the gun and not live ammunition!)
Yes, they are casings! I managed to remove the live rounds and duplicate the stoppage with spent shells.

The hammer block is merely laying there, it moved when I took the cover off.

Yes, Armorer, this is a new problem. After about every 5 rounds the trigger "stops and everything locks-up. The cylinder won't wiggle, the hammer won't move back, the trigger is frozen in place.

It was a good gun for 30 years until I removed the original hammer and ground too much off the spur. Now I have bought 2 more hammers from ebay and they are both experiencing this new problem.

I am on my way to range to try the factory trigger and see what happens. I realize I could do this at home with casings , but I want to shoot some rifles too.

I respond again tonight.

Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-07-2015 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 08-07-2015, 05:15 PM
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Swap the DA sear from the original and install it on one of the new ones.
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:27 PM
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I expect that the hammer needs to be properly "fitted" to the trigger. If you pick up the Kuhnhausen S&W Shop Manual you will find instructions for the various areas that need to be "fitted". If you don't wish to pick up a manual I would suggest that you pay a professional gunsmith to fit one of your new hammers to the lockwork.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
I expect that the hammer needs to be properly "fitted" to the trigger. If you pick up the Kuhnhausen S&W Shop Manual you will find instructions for the various areas that need to be "fitted". If you don't wish to pick up a manual I would suggest that you pay a professional gunsmith to fit one of your new hammers to the lockwork.
Thanks Scooter, who needs a manual when there is a gunsmith section on this site, lol.

Seriously, I won't learn a thing if I give-up and use a gunsmith.
I have been already contacted by a gunsmith from this site who lives 20 min. from me and I will use him as a last resort.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:50 PM
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OK, bad news everyone! I installed the original factory hammer and the same thing has happened, however, I couldn't get the problem to happen when I dryfired about 50 times with no cases in it.

I am now officially lost. I even checked to see if it was happening on the same spot on the cylinder, it was not.

When it happens, I can squeeze with all my strength and it won't cycle enough to drop the hammer.

PS when it happens, mid-trigger-pull, everything locks-up and nothing can be wiggled, not even the cylinder, hammer or anything. If this was a cleanliness problem i don't know where it could be.

Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-07-2015 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
Swap the DA sear from the original and install it on one of the new ones.
Thanks Chief, but obviously I'm past that being the problem now. I had considered installing the matched set, hammer and trigger assembly, I bought new on ebay, but looked too complicated. So I bobbed the hammer, installed it and problems started.

I am now going to search for worn areas which might give me a clue.

Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-07-2015 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:33 AM
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OK, check to see of the Hand & Spring are installed properly. Was hand bent or damages while working on gun? So difficult without having it in hands while trying to diagnose..............
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:12 AM
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Tom, is this lockup dependent on the orientation of the revolver. Such as does it happen when the revolver is level but not when it's pointed up or down? If this is the case I would suggest that you check to see if there is a pin inserted inside the Rebound Spring to act as a trigger stop. If there is, flip that pin end for end and this should solve your problem.

Note, the N frame revolvers typically have in trigger stop in inside the rebound spring and I discovered the orientation of this pin is rather critical. Because get it installed the wrong way and the result can be exactly what you are experiencing. BTW, if you've read between the lines and feel that I learned this lesson the "hard way" you would be 100% correct. Since I don't own any J frames I didn't mention this before but thought it may be helpful in the event your model has that trigger stop pin installed.

I will also repeat my suggestion that you purchase the Kuhnhausen Shop Manual. Even Rocket Scientists use manuals so I really don't see the logic in beating your head against the wall when a manual can be such an asset.

Last edited by scooter123; 08-08-2015 at 10:13 PM. Reason: correct by changing spring to pin where it matters.
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  #16  
Old 08-08-2015, 11:50 AM
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A couple of things come to mind ref the lock up of the action as the hammer comes back in DA.

Look at the sideplate (for contact) and the area inside the frame near the back of the bolt, to see if there are any signs of contact from the hammer. Sometimes the "tail" of the hammer (see photo) can catch on the edge of a protruding bolt stem, or the edge of the cutaway in the frame made for the bolt itself.

Also, if the sear is not long enough, when the trigger cams off of the sear, and transitions over to the DA bevel on the hammer, it doesn't go under the bevel as it should but strikes the hammer bevel face. This is usually felt as a "bump" when it first begins to malfunction due to wear. When parts are switched, however, this can manifest itself as a complete stoppage, and not just a "bump".
You should be able to see and feel this happen if you remove the sideplate, remove the mainspring and strut, and then cycle the action slowly, adding some gentle forward hand pressure to the back of the hammer at the spur, paying attention to the area where the top of the sear ledge of the trigger transitions contact from there over to the DA camming surfaces on the hammer and trigger. If the camming surfaces are striking head-on at that location, a longer sear would be needed. If the transition is functioning correctly, the DA cam on the hammer should come in above the DA bevel on the trigger. The malfunction may be happening because you have substututed a used part into the mix. The part may have in fact, been sold after having been removed from another j-frame because it was malfunctioning in this way.

That's the reason why you're having problems. You can't just "drop in" these parts. They are fit to each particular gun.
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Last edited by armorer951; 08-08-2015 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 08-08-2015, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
Tom, is this lockup dependent on the orientation of the revolver. Such as does it happen when the revolver is level but not when it's pointed up or down? If this is the case I would suggest that you check to see if there is a pin inserted inside the Rebound Spring to act as a trigger stop. If there is, flip that spring end for end and this should solve your problem.

Note, the N frame revolvers typically have in trigger stop in inside the rebound spring and I discovered the orientation of this spring is rather critical. Because get it installed the wrong way and the result can be exactly what you are experiencing. BTW, if you've read between the lines and feel that I learned this lesson the "hard way" you would be 100% correct. Since I don't own any J frames I didn't mention this before but thought it may be helpful in the event your model has that trigger stop pin installed.

I will also repeat my suggestion that you purchase the Kuhnhausen Shop Manual. Even Rocket Scientists use manuals so I really don't see the logic in beating your head against the wall when a manual can be such an asset.
Never tried up or down. But I may go to range today.

Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-08-2015 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 08-08-2015, 04:07 PM
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Armorer, you've gone to a lot of trouble. Nice camera.

I will check this all out.
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Old 08-08-2015, 08:16 PM
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Oh Boy!! I wonder if this is part of the culprit? I noticed a deep scratch across the bottom of some cartridges. I looked at the firing pin hole, it is oval-shaped and has a "lip" sticking out.

Notice that the primer is dragged crooked?

Must "click picture to enlarge"
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model 60 still locking trigger pull at 80% pull-122-jpg   model 60 still locking trigger pull at 80% pull-102-jpg   model 60 still locking trigger pull at 80% pull-104-jpg  

Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-08-2015 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 08-08-2015, 08:37 PM
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Certainly could cause the stoppage you describe. Definately some abnormal peening at the top of the firing pin bushing.
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Old 08-08-2015, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Certainly could cause the stoppage you describe. Definately some abnormal peening at the top of the firing pin bushing.
I wonder if the peening is from dry firing, and causing the shoulder of the pin to contact the hole?

Can the bushing be replaced? Or should I file it flat and see if problem goes away?

Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-08-2015 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:10 PM
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Possibly from a damaged, bent, or imroperly installed hammer nose? A properly fit hammer nose should not create that damage.
The "shoulder of the pin" does not reach the hole in the bushing.....looks like the end of the nose is striking the top of the hole.
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Possibly from a damaged, bent, or imroperly installed hammer nose? A properly fit hammer nose should not create that damage.
The "shoulder of the pin" does not reach the hole in the bushing.....looks like the end of the nose is striking the top of the hole.
Oh ya!! I see what you mean.
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Old 08-09-2015, 02:04 AM
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OK My job is done here. I filed-off the raised area with a very fine file, and returned to original hammer, See pic. Thanks for everyones help. and scooter didn't get a book commission if book was bought. I'm only missing a couple parts, not too bad. I'm just kidding.

Oh ya, I put in some empty casings and cycled at least 200 strikes, the strike is now centered and no scratches. Like Armorer said, the ebay hammer must have a misaligned firing pin.

PS, the back of the barrel was rubbed "shiny", possibly from the cylinder being pushed forward by the raised part that I've since filed away.
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Last edited by Sargent Tom; 08-09-2015 at 03:57 AM.
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