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  #51  
Old 02-02-2017, 06:11 PM
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Have the factory or a GOOD gunsmith check for a stretched frame. It happens. Ayoob stretched the alloy frame of a Model 38 with just 500 rounds of Plus P.


It's probably something else, but check for that, too.
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  #52  
Old 02-03-2017, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Not really.

If both of the guns are older models that have a hammer mounted hammer nose (firing pin) you could try swapping the hammers in the guns. If the hammers are compatible, and the hammer from the more "reliable" model restores reliability 100% of the time, then you've pretty much narrowed the problem down to the hammer.

Other than a defective hammer nose there are a couple of other possibilities, including something called "hammer hits rebound". Not a likely cause, but possible. Also, just to double check, put empty casings in the gun and check the rear gauge again...make sure the casings are fully seated in the chambers before a measurement is taken.
Any idea if the misfires are occurring in the same chamber each time?
Checked the gun with empty casings in the chambers in fact I used the same casing for each individual cylinder I got a reading of .072 -.074
When I was at the range I did not check to see if the misfires were on the same chamber.
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  #53  
Old 02-03-2017, 12:19 PM
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Also; try your ammo in a different gun if you haven't already. That will eliminate the ammo as the issue.
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  #54  
Old 02-03-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jhkunkel View Post
Checked the gun with empty casings in the chambers in fact I used the same casing for each individual cylinder I got a reading of .072 -.074
When I was at the range I did not check to see if the misfires were on the same chamber.
.012 and .014 with the same casings in each chamber.
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  #55  
Old 02-03-2017, 12:22 PM
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Also; try your ammo in a different gun if you haven't already. That will eliminate the ammo as the issue.
Thank you I have used six or maybe seven different types and brands of ammo in this revolver with no difference.
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  #56  
Old 02-03-2017, 01:03 PM
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You did take a look at the hammer nose bushing, correct? This is the bushing that the hammer nose protrudes from in the breechface. Take a look at it with a magnifier if you have one....from the front and the back. It should be secure in the breechface, and there should be no damage or peening.
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  #57  
Old 02-03-2017, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhkunkel View Post
.012 and .014 with the same casings in each chamber.
Here are a couple of pictures showing the light primer strike on one of the cartridges.
[ATTACH][ATTACH]Model 60 J frame failure to fire-cartridge-jpg-2-jpg[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
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  #58  
Old 02-03-2017, 01:47 PM
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Buy the Jerry K. shop manual on S&W revolvers.

It sounds like you have an interest to learn more about them, and that book will teach you a lot.
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  #59  
Old 02-03-2017, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
You did take a look at the hammer nose bushing, correct? This is the bushing that the hammer nose protrudes from in the breechface. Take a look at it with a magnifier if you have one....from the front and the back. It should be secure in the breechface, and there should be no damage or peening.
It looks OK to me, with my limited knowledge.
Hare are 3 picsModel 60 J frame failure to fire-nose-jpg

Model 60 J frame failure to fire-nose-2-jpg

Model 60 J frame failure to fire-nose3-jpg
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  #60  
Old 02-03-2017, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
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You did take a look at the hammer nose bushing, correct? This is the bushing that the hammer nose protrudes from in the breechface. Take a look at it with a magnifier if you have one....from the front and the back. It should be secure in the breechface, and there should be no damage or peening.
It looks OK to me, with my limited knowledge.
Hare are 3 picsAttachment 268114

Attachment 268115

Attachment 268116
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  #61  
Old 02-03-2017, 02:00 PM
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Does the bushing appear to be secure in the breechface? It looks like the staking is off center, and the hole is no longer concentric, with some peening at the bottom. Is the bushing itself flush with the breechface? It appears in the photo that the bushing is below the breechface.
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  #62  
Old 02-03-2017, 04:11 PM
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Ideally, the rear gage should be .006" - .008" when measured with empty casings inserted. There is some variation in case rim thickness among manufacturers, and obviously, this will have an effect. Most of the rims on the casings I have here measure .054"-055".
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  #63  
Old 02-03-2017, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Does the bushing appear to be secure in the breechface? It looks like the staking is off center, and the hole is no longer concentric, with some peening at the bottom. Is the bushing itself flush with the breechface? It appears in the photo that the bushing is below the breechface.
Yes the bushing is secure in the breech face
The staking appears to be off center by less than a hair
Seems to be a very small amount of peening at about 5 o'clock
You are correct the bushing is just slightly below the preach face

No doubt about it you are good.
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  #64  
Old 02-03-2017, 04:23 PM
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When I open the cylinder and pull the cylinder latch back and pull the trigger so the firing pin is exposed it appears to be perfectly centered in the bushing
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  #65  
Old 02-03-2017, 07:19 PM
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Please, PM me before throwing in pond or lake or taking the hammer to it. I will take it off your hands. Please, send pictures. Stop letting it aggravate you. Decide what you want for a gun that you know doesn't work. Maybe we can get together.
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  #66  
Old 02-03-2017, 08:36 PM
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Please, PM me before throwing in pond or lake or taking the hammer to it. I will take it off your hands. Please, send pictures. Stop letting it aggravate you. Decide what you want for a gun that you know doesn't work. Maybe we can get together.
Thank you for your offer and interest but this gun is a keeper and I will get it figured out.
Thanks again
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  #67  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:45 AM
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Ideally, the rear gage should be .006" - .008" when measured with empty casings inserted. There is some variation in case rim thickness among manufacturers, and obviously, this will have an effect. Most of the rims on the casings I have here measure .054"-055".
With the rear gauge on my gun bein about .012-.014 would shims be in order?

I went to the website you mentioned in an earlier post and went ahead and ordered some.
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  #68  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:28 AM
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Seems to be some inconsistency in the measurements you've posted of the rear gage. If this most recent measurement you performed with empty casings in place is correct, I would expect you to be able to feel quite a bit of fore and aft movement in the cylinder when it's closed.
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  #69  
Old 02-04-2017, 12:32 PM
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I'm following this discussion closely as i am also having FTF problems with my Model 60 no-dash, although it is limited to my reloads with CCI primers...but i still want a solution.
Always fires in SA, but FTF in DA about 60% of time with CCI.
A Wolff extra power (9lb) hammer spring didn't help.
Thanks for the suggestions that folks are making on here.
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  #70  
Old 02-04-2017, 06:39 PM
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Thank you for your offer and interest but this gun is a keeper and I will get it figured out.
Thanks again
Just send it to S&W already. Save you a lot of headache and they'll tune that old girl right up to factory new. I have several old s&w revolvers that work fine, but I plan to send back to the mothership one at a time just for a tune-up. My kids will be getting them one day and by then those revolvers will be over 60 years old. Money well spent, in my opinion.
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  #71  
Old 02-04-2017, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
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Seems to be some inconsistency in the measurements you've posted of the rear gage. If this most recent measurement you performed with empty casings in place is correct, I would expect you to be able to feel quite a bit of fore and aft movement in the cylinder when it's closed.
Yes I was very careful in my last measurement with the empty casings in place.
I don't think I fully understood how to take the measurements the first time I did it.
It definitely has some fore-and-aft movement in the cylinder when it's closed but it doesn't appear to be excessive. By that I mean not excessive when compared to my other J frames.
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  #72  
Old 02-05-2017, 02:54 PM
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Default Rebound. trigger at rest and pulled back

Model 60 J frame failure to fire-rebound-trigger-back-jpg

Model 60 J frame failure to fire-rerbound-trigger-rest-jpg

I think this is correct.
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  #73  
Old 02-05-2017, 03:10 PM
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As long as you are doing your part concerning follow through in double action. Close, but looks good.
I would use caution working the fully sprung action with the sideplate off though. Hammer, trigger and reboud studs are unsupported by the plate in that configuration.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:42 PM
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I have installed another trigger, replaced the rebound slide and spring, and replaced the cylinder lock and spring. Trigger pull is now at 14 lbs.

I'll take it to the range again and report back the results. Will use 3 different brands of ammo.

Thanks to all.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:43 PM
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As long as you are doing your part concerning follow through in double action. Close, but looks good.
I would use caution working the fully sprung action with the sideplate off though. Hammer, trigger and reboud studs are unsupported by the plate in that configuration.
I understand and will use caution.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:20 PM
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The lower frame internals do not contribute to your misfire scenario. Rebound slide/rebound slide spring/ cylinder stop and spring/trigger, etc. You have confirmed that the rebound slide is properly fit (clearance), and the timing is ok. (center hits on primers/carry up)

Another in the long list....Just to eliminate the hammer block, you might check it for signs of damage/burrs in the "flag" area at the top.
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  #77  
Old 02-05-2017, 05:55 PM
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I wonder if the FTFs are always on the same chamber?
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:19 PM
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Robert....he indicated they were random.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:23 PM
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The lower frame internals do not contribute to your misfire scenario. Rebound slide/rebound slide spring/ cylinder stop and spring/trigger, etc. You have confirmed that the rebound slide is properly fit (clearance), and the timing is ok. (center hits on primers/carry up)

Another in the long list....Just to eliminate the hammer block, you might check it for signs of damage/burrs in the "flag" area at the top.
I hate to ask, but what is "the flag area at the top"?
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:35 PM
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Behold the 'FLAG'



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Old 02-06-2017, 09:12 PM
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All is good in the flag area.

As I said before the cylinder, the front of the cylinder, moves left to right and I noticed that it seems to open up at the crane area. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that correctly but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:50 PM
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The interface between the front locking bolt and the end of the extractor rod serves to mitigate that movement, and support the assembly during firing. Some gauge between the parts is essential however, for the cylinder assembly to rotate without interference. This is one reason why reducing run out on the extractor rod is so important, as run out can cause the cylinder to intermittently bind on the f.l. lug)

Excessive movement, if present, may be due to the front locking bolt/extractor rod end being worn, or the parts may not have been fit properly in the first place.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:13 PM
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The interface between the front locking bolt and the end of the extractor rod serves to mitigate that movement, and support the assembly during firing. Some gauge between the parts is essential however, for the cylinder assembly to rotate without interference. This is one reason why reducing run out on the extractor rod is so important, as run out can cause the cylinder to intermittently bind on the f.l. lug)

Excessive movement, if present, may be due to the front locking bolt/extractor rod end being worn, or the parts may not have been fit properly in the first place.
Would excessive movement like that then have any bearing on the fail to fire problems?

I took the gun to the range today very methodically and very carefully fired and I still have the same problems I've mentioned before no pattern to any of the failure to fire problem. Just light primer hits as mentioned I then took those rounds and put them in my other Model 60 and they fired without a problem.
I plan on switching the hammers on the guns in the next couple of days and we'll see what happens with the hammers switched.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:54 PM
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No, probably not.

It appears from what you have indicated so far that the problem is most likely related to excessive headspace. You indicated you ordered shims, did you have an opportunity to double check or re-check the headspace, and verify the amount of end shake?
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Old 02-09-2017, 10:30 AM
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Just a quick up date.
Have the gun torn down again.
You are probably right on the headspace issue.
I think I'm having a problem correctly measuring headspace.
I don't have the tools to accurately measure the cartridge rim, so I just used . 60 for the rim depth.
Then measuring with a feeler gauge, I get .012, which is how I arrived at the total headspace of .072.
The shims arrived yesterday.
Cylinder to barrel measures at .012
The yoke on the crane has very limited movement.
When I move the cylinder left to write there is a very noticeable gap between the crane/yoke and the frame in the closed cylinder position.
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  #86  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:04 AM
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Closing the cylinder and measuring at the front barrel cylinder gap will give you your total end shake. Measure the gap at that location with the cylinder pushed forward, and measure with the cylinder pulled to the rear. Difference is the end shake.
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Old 02-12-2017, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
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I'm following this discussion closely as i am also having FTF problems with my Model 60 no-dash, although it is limited to my reloads with CCI primers...but i still want a solution.
Always fires in SA, but FTF in DA about 60% of time with CCI.
A Wolff extra power (9lb) hammer spring didn't help.
Thanks for the suggestions that folks are making on here.
Not the OP but thought I'd post an update to my situation as it may help.
My rim clearance measured .009 - .010, so I installed a .002 cylinder shim to get it to .007 - .008 and that eliminated my ftf.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:24 AM
jhkunkel jhkunkel is offline
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Default Smith & Wesson Model 60 FTF

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Originally Posted by i1afli View Post
Not the OP but thought I'd post an update to my situation as it may help.
My rim clearance measured .009 - .010, so I installed a .002 cylinder shim to get it to .007 - .008 and that eliminated my ftf.
Just an update to all who are following.

Talked to the folks at S & W. Explained all the help I have been given in trying to correct the FTF problem. They asked that I send to them, which I did yesterday.

I want to thank everyone for all the help, suggestions, and comments regarding this frustrating problem. A special Thanks to armorer951 who went out of his way to help.

I will post the results of what Smith & Wesson finds when they examine the gun.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:28 PM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
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They'll bring it back to perfect working condition.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:25 PM
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iPac iPac is offline
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At this point, it was better to send it off. If it was something super easy, you would have fixed it already.

It sure sounds like something is out of spec, whether just one thing or a combination of multiple things. Sounds like you have excessive endshake, and possibly even crane issues, or it could even be the frame. I know the gun looks like it was WELL used, judging by the breech face, so you probably have a gun that was run to the point of factory tune up.

Even though you gave up, I would still recommend that shop manual I mentioned earlier. Everyone who enjoys the revolver hobby should own and have read those manuals. If for nothing else, it helps you to pick winners when it comes time to buy 2nd hand guns. Majority of people buy without the slightest clue of any mechanical issues, because they don't even know how the gun fully operates.
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  #91  
Old 02-17-2017, 06:20 PM
jhkunkel jhkunkel is offline
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I will definitely pick up the manual.
Your point about using it to identify a good gun, or rather what to look for, will more than pay the cost of purchase.
Thanks
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