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  #1  
Old 04-07-2012, 10:44 PM
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Default Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger

This no dash 6" model 28 I recently bought is turning into a real headache.

First and foremost, the cylinder will not open reliably. And in fact, by opening it, it appears something is rubbing on it and catching on the cylinders, causing a serious rub mark on the rear faces of the recessed cylinders.

This and a "gritty" action led me to completely tear down the gun and clean it. (everything except remove the extractor rod from the cylinder).

Took everything apart, this is the most filthy gun I have ever seen in my life. Literally sand in there. I had to clean every part, Q-tip the hell out of every hole and crevice including firing pin hole, hand hole, and the ejector lock hole (or whatever it's called). This is a 4 screw model, so it had the cylinder stop pin/spring hole (I like this much better than the newer ones).

At any rate, put everything back together and it still does the same thing, although action is much better. The cylinder failing to open is a real show stopper. I dont want to cause permanent damage to it if it's not already happened.

Also, the trigger in single action seems to be flawed. When cocking the hammer for single action, the trigger seems to come too far back, it's literally ALL the way back to the frame/grip. You literally breathe on the trigger and it releases. There is no trigger stop or cutout for one. Again, this is not right.

I think I now know why this was priced so low.
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:24 PM
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Bent ejector rod or bent yoke can cause what you describe with the opening problem.

The trigger position may be a result of someone doing a bad trigger job. Do you have another hammer and trigger you can swap into the gun to see if that fixes the "hair trigger"?
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:25 PM
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I have a similar problem with my Model 66, it seems to catch a bit when opening the cylinder and I believe I have figured out the problem. Forgive me for not have to the correct terms but I am new to wheel guns. As you can see from the pic below there is a pin inside the revolver the when you push on the thumb latch it pushes in a pin on the cylinder allowing it to swing open. As you can see that pin does not quite come flush which would cause the pin on the cylinder to catch a bit. This part is located inside behind the hammer and the thumb latch on the outside attaches to it.



Now this is my 631 which opens very reliably and as you can see the pin seems to protrude more which would push the cylinder pin in further.



Well I hope this is helpful. Cheers.

Tex
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1gunner View Post
Bent ejector rod or bent yoke can cause what you describe with the opening problem.

The trigger position may be a result of someone doing a bad trigger job. Do you have another hammer and trigger you can swap into the gun to see if that fixes the "hair trigger"?
What's interesting is that before I put the sideplate back on and attached the main spring, I moved the trigger and it appears to "catch" in the proper place, but after it's completely together it just isnt right.

I know it's back together right.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:49 AM
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What you are experiencing is the "previous owner blues". Funny how often we'll complain about a really tiny flaw on a new gun but a used gun full of sand is considered normal.

You've made a good start on correcting what's wrong with your 28, now to get down to the rest of the issues. That posting about the release pin stroking a touch short is one area to look at carefully. Another is at the opposite end of the ejector rod and this is a more common area of poor fitup. If you position the cylinder so that it's just a tick short of locking in place the recoil shield will hold the center pin in the ejector rod in it's forward position. Take a good close look at the end of the ejector rod and confirm that the center pin is standing a bit "proud" of the surrounding knurling at the tip. If it's recessed you'll have a "catch" when trying to open the cylinder just as you have described. The fix is VERY easy, you simply open the cylinder and stone or file the end of the ejector rod until the center pin will extend past the end of the ejector rod when you release the cylinder. Personally I prefer to use a stone so that I don't have to worry about the particles that might be produced.

Next up is the trigger. From what you are describing your Previous Owner stoned the trigger to what I call an Assist Angle. Basically the sear on the trigger has been ground to an angle that causes the single action sear on the hammer to "slide downhill". This will effectively lighten the single action trigger as you have observed. In addition in time it will also wear the tip of the single action sear on the hammer. Hopefully at this point your hammer hasn't been damaged, however that potential does exist and if you test for "pushoff" you'll greatly speed up that process of destroying the hammer.

What you need to do is stone the trigger back to the original Factory angle and cross your finger that it provides a lasting solution. BTW, with a case hardened trigger it's a bit of a gamble that you'll be able to stone the trigger again without breaking through the case hardened surface but that risk is perhaps only about 5-10% because small projections such as that on the trigger tend to through harden in the case hardening process that I expect that S&W used on your model 28. Following is a link to an excellent post that Gizamo put up about a stoning jig for the trigger. I recomend you look it over closely and order yourself a 6 inch Arkansas stone to do the work. BTW, last time I looked these stones were something like 60 dollars at Brownells so they aren't cheap.

Tuning Jigs
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:21 PM
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For now, I am going to focus on the cylinder ejection issue. I can live with the trigger, and the fix seems to be a little more than I am comfortable with doing at this time considering my skillset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
That posting about the release pin stroking a touch short is one area to look at carefully.
In looking at the bolt (cylinder release assembly), it seems to be pretty much flush with the frame, although when I feel it, it feels "scaloped" like the center pin has worn a dish in it.

Quote:
Another is at the opposite end of the ejector rod and this is a more common area of poor fitup. If you position the cylinder so that it's just a tick short of locking in place the recoil shield will hold the center pin in the ejector rod in it's forward position. Take a good close look at the end of the ejector rod and confirm that the center pin is standing a bit "proud" of the surrounding knurling at the tip.
It seem to be fully extended until you force it closed, when it then (as-designed) recesses as closed


Quote:
If it's recessed you'll have a "catch" when trying to open the cylinder just as you have described. The fix is VERY easy, you simply open the cylinder and stone or file the end of the ejector rod until the center pin will extend past the end of the ejector rod when you release the cylinder. Personally I prefer to use a stone so that I don't have to worry about the particles that might be produced.
File which end, the end toward the barrel or the end toward the hammer?

I dont think I am fully understanding what you are asking.
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Old 04-08-2012, 02:18 PM
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The ejector rod is basically a 2 part assembly with a few springs thrown in the mix. The outer tube is the part that has that knurled tip under the barrel and the center pin is retained by it's shape and spring loaded to push the bolt for the cylinder release to the rear when the cylinder is closed. When you push on that cylinder release the bolt shifts forward and presses on this center pin so that the rear is flush with the recoil shield and the front under the barrel presses the forward lock clear of the tubing part of the ejector rod. It's rather common for the center pins to be just a hair short and this will result in the center pin being a bit recessed in relation to the surrounding ejector rod tube when that center pin is pressed all the way forward. If you park the cylinder in a slightly open position so that you can clearly see the end of the ejector rod what you should see is that the center pin is slightly higher than the surrounding tube. If it's not, you file or stone that tube until it does project slightly when fully pressed forward.

What all this means is that you may need to stone the end under the barrel. Two points. One is that the center pin only needs to stand proud of the ejector rod by 0.002 to 0.006 inch. While 0.010 inch won't cause any harm you really don't need to go at it with a grinder. Second, material removed cannot easily be put back. So, put on some readers and look closely to confirm a need to do any work in this area and work slowly until you achieve a smooth release of the cylinder.
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Old 04-08-2012, 07:14 PM
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^ Ok, so by shortening the end of the ejector rod tube, the stay pin at the end of the barrel underlug has less to "catch" on and will result in an easier ejection?

I mean right now, I really have to pull on the cylinder to eject it.
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:39 PM
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Lets clarify our termonology a bit here. The way interpret your original post that you are having problems with OPENING the cylinder. Now you are referring to EJECTING the cylinder, which is pushing on the ejector rod to EJECT empty casings from the cylinder.

If you are having problems OPENING the cylinder the steps for correcting this are as follows. First, make sure the Ejector Rod is screwed in tight. It's a LEFT Hand Thread so you'll want to test in the unscrew direction for a right hand thread. If it's loose then be specific about this and we'll walk you through how to tighten it properly. Second thing to look at is the barrel end of the ejector rod with the cylinder positioned nearly closed. If you find the center pin is recessed you need to do a bit of fitting as described. Third area to look at is the Cylinder Release Bolt, which is that push/pull pin in the center of the recoil shield.

Now, if you are having issues with EJECTING empty casings that's a different ball of wax. Causes for problems in Ejection are mainly due to cleanliness of the cylinder, poorly machined chambers in the cylinder, or defects in the cylinder due to firing over pressure ammunition. Because it consts only time and a bit of money for cleaning materials you start by correcting this by thoroughly cleaning each chamber. If you still have problems it would probably be best to either contact S&W or see a local gunsmith who knows how to work on S&W revolvers.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:15 PM
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Opening the cylinder, not using the ejector rod.

I am gonna post some pics here in a minute.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:20 PM
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You stated the rear of the cylinder was dragging on the blast shield on opening. An overly long ejector rod tube will not cause this.
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:43 PM
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Here is a shot of the cylinder with the mars highlighted.

Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger-cylinder-jpg
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
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You stated the rear of the cylinder was dragging on the blast shield on opening. An overly long ejector rod tube will not cause this.
What does?
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:23 PM
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Those marks on the rear of the cylinder appear to be firing pin strikes. How this could be possible is a bit baffling but I suppose that if Bubba removed the hand or hand spring it might be possible.

From the condition of the rear of the cylinder it appears that we aren't talking about a 98% condition collectable. If this is a routine shooter I would use a stone to remove any high spots, that should resolve any drag issues caused by this.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:06 AM
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It's possible it was out of timing at one point, but not now. I checked every cylinder at full lockup after cleaning/reassembly. All parts present too. I didnt think it could be those mars catching apon ejection considering the ejector star sticks out so much farther than them.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:29 AM
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If this is a 4 screw gun, the ejector rod may have a right hand thread as they only changed to left hand in 1960, then went to the 3 screw M28-2 in 1961.

Can you get a picture of the recoil shield so we can see if the center pin is not being pushed far enough forward...or perhaps once was not...and has cut a trough there? I suspect your problem is somewhere between the front locking lug on the barrel, the center pin, and the bolt. I doubt those marks on the cylinder are the cause of this. No doubt this gun has been tinkered with.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:03 AM
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You have to remember the recoil shield is recessed to provide clearance for the extractor. If you do have high spots that are dragging on the recoil shield they should be leaving clear evidence of this by leaving scratches. I'm another who would like to see a picture of the recoil shield. At the same time position the cylinder so that it's just shy of the forward lock and take a picture of the end of the ejector rod.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:36 AM
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Ok, will take pictures this evening when I get home. If you want, make a list of things you think may be beneficial for me to take pictures of and I will knock it out.

If you want, I can even disassemble the internals again and take pictures of the trigger and hammer in reference to the single action trigger issue I previously mentioned. Dont know if you can get the info you need from that.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:43 AM
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If I didnt mention this before, I really appreciate all the help on this. This board is most helpful.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:01 PM
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Nah man...thank YOU for giving us a brain teaser! :-)_
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:21 PM
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Here is some more pics. Please dont puke when you see the condition of the gun, you really have no idea what it looked like when I got it. It's obviously not a collector gun, but I believe it can be a shooter when I am done with it.

Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger-28b1-jpg

Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger-28b2-jpg

Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger-28b3-jpg
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File Type: jpg 28B1.jpg (128.6 KB, 1034 views)
File Type: jpg 28B2.jpg (110.0 KB, 1029 views)
File Type: jpg 28B3.jpg (144.6 KB, 1033 views)
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:32 PM
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More closeup

Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger-28b1c-jpg

Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger-28b2c-jpg
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File Type: jpg 28B2c.jpg (119.6 KB, 1028 views)
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:03 PM
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Hard to tell for sure so wait for some others to comment too, but your bolt looks to me like it is not going as far forward as it should. The system works by pushing forward on the thumb piece...attached to the internal bolt...which in turn pushes the center pin forward, and the center pin pushes on the forward locking bolt under the barrel. Given how dirty / sandy you said this gun was (and it looks the part) there may still be some dirt behind the bolt cutout in the frame or the spring / plunger behind it may not be working right. Did you pull the assembly and clean / oil it well when you cleaned the rest of the internals?

If the bolt cannot push the end of the center pin flush to the recoil shield, the cylinder will catch and be difficult to get open. If this is not the case I woukld suspect the front locking bolt may be doing something similar due to dirt / grunge and maybe not moving far enough forward toward the muzzle when the bolt / thumbpiece is pushed. Did you remove it and the spring for a deep clean?
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:29 PM
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I didn't barf at all. Even with the troubles I would have bought that one. I agree the marks look too much like firing pin strikes in the back of the cylinder and I would also clean to the Nth degree the insides all over again. Keep at it and you will have one awesome shooter.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:51 PM
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Yes, I completely removed and disassembled every internal piece with 2 exceptions. The ONLY pieces I did not disassemble was the hammer and sear assembly and the trigger and hand assembly. Although I did remove those parts and thoroughly cleaned and oiled them both and they freely move.

I did remove the bolt and the spring/pin that goes in the bolt and cleaned them, it freely moves without obstruction. It's quite possible that there is still some gunk in there, but I dont think so. You could EAT off the inside of this gun after I was done with it. But I will disassemble it again and take a a look at the bolt. It's easy enough to do.

Consequently, this is the first 4 hole model I have owned, I really like the cylinder stop pin/spring design of the 4 hole versus the "improved" 3 hole version. Makes it MUCH easier to do. Why did they delete that?

One more question, is it possible the center pin is worn to the point that it does not protrude enough?

Last edited by nipster; 04-10-2012 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
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Given how dirty / sandy you said this gun was (and it looks the part) there may still be some dirt behind the bolt cutout in the frame or the spring / plunger behind it may not be working right. Did you pull the assembly and clean / oil it well when you cleaned the rest of the internals?
I did not do that, but it does move freely. I can see it move when you push on the cylinder release. I actually have never removed that part. It appears there is a pin that holds it in place, how do you remove it?
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:00 PM
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By the way, unrelated, but since this revelation of the hammer strikes on the cylinder, I have taken a look at each one of my weapons and one has that. My 629 no dash. Is there a graceful way to remove those? It's not nearly as bad as this 28, and it is definitely in time, but must have gone out of time in the past.

On the 28, when the extractor star "returns" to it's normal resting position, it can stick sometimes if you lightly utilize the extractor, a good forceful use of the rod it does not do that.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:46 PM
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I did not do that, but it does move freely. I can see it move when you push on the cylinder release. I actually have never removed that part. It appears there is a pin that holds it in place, how do you remove it?
I am confused. You did or did not remove the bolt assembly? If not, take off the thumbpiece and then you have to sorta wiggle the bolt forward while working the back end (with spring and plunger) upwards and back from the inside. It is rare to need it, but the shoulder on the bolt can be filed to relieve it a bit and let it forward just a smidge. Spring and plunger should move freely and spring should not be broken or too weak (subjective, I know but sometimes rust will cause a spring to break at a weak point) And the cutout should be clean and pristene. Check the shoulder of the bolt and the frame for gunk too.

The front locking lug is, indeed, held in by a pin and has a spring behind it. If it is moving freely I'd just leave it alone but maybe flush it out well with WD40 or an aerosol and then relube...it should not be too easy to push in by hand (again...subjective).
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
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I am confused. You did or did not remove the bolt assembly? ... The front locking lug is, indeed, held in by a pin and has a spring behind it. If it is moving freely I'd just leave it alone but maybe flush it out well with WD40 or an aerosol and then relube...it should not be too easy to push in by hand (again...subjective).
I took out the bolt, assembly and pin/spring, I thought you were referring to the pin at the end of where the extractor sits (at the barrel end of the gun), I am not sure what that part is called (front locking lug maybe?).
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:14 PM
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Yep...the one at the end of where the extractor sits is the front locking lug. (S&W official name).

Your star / ratchet not wanting to go into place when worked slowly is most likely a bent locator pin underneath the extractor star...they will get bent and / or lost, and once gone, even just one, the gun will slowly work itself out of time. You can straighten it by VERY carefully using the body of a replaceable pin punch (the punch removed so that it is hollow) and bending it back into place. The FBI gunsmiths used to make a special tool that would both drive in and stake those pins at the same time but I never saw one for sale anywhere. The rest of us had to make do with home made prick punches, again VERY carefully used so as not to throw up a burr that would cause the star to stand proud. Pins are still available IIRC from Brownell's.
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Old 02-26-2017, 12:05 AM
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thank you so much. all I did was tighten the pin and that fixed thr problem.
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:04 AM
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Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger  
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Here is what I would do if it were in my hands. Completely disassemble. Remove thumb piece and the bolt mechanism. Check the spring and plunger and use carb cleaner to flush out the holes. Scrub everything with a small brass brush. Drop of oil in any pin or slide surface. Stick 3 or more fired cases in cylinder and use a drill chuck on extractor rod to remove it. Remove extractor star. Clean everything with brass brush. Roll extractor on a piece of glass to make sure its straight. Check center rod as well as possible for straight. Use a small hard stone to clean up marks on star cylindeer. Reassemble with light oil on shaft areas. Spray carb cleaner on locking lug under barrel and work it with screw driver tip an bunch, making sure it is good and clean and free. Drop od oil on it. Now check the gun for function. Check for yoke movement and endshake and if more than .003 ad a shim or 2 to get it to .001 to .002.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:10 AM
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Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger Model 28 issues cylinder and trigger  
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Digging them up...

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629, 631, brownells, ejector, extractor, gunsmith, hardening, lock, m28, model 28, model 66, recessed, sideplate, smith & wesson, smith and wesson, smith-wessonforum.com, thumbpiece

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