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  #1  
Old 06-06-2017, 12:33 PM
JASuro JASuro is offline
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Default Problems with a new Model 25

Hi all,

I purchased a NIB Model 25 a bit over a month ago - a gorgeous gun in the 6.5 inch format. On the first outing I noticed hard extraction, which got progressively worse, until after about half a box of ammo it was very hard to actuate the extractor so I stopped shooting.

I contacted S&W and they took it in for repairs. They returned it last week, about a month later. The notes said they replaced the cylinder and the yoke screw.

I took it to the range this morning and it has the same problem, plus a new one. Hard extractions are still there. Once the extractor travel stops, I have to pull each individual cartridge by hand. Same as last time, I noticed that some of the spent cartridges were slightly out of round (see pic below). The new problem is that it is now spitting out flames about 8-inches long on both sides of the cylinder. I don't recall that happening before so I stopped shooting it after three cylinders thinking that the flames might be a pressure related issue.

Any of you experienced guys have any idea what could be causing all of this? I want to be able to suggest something to S&W when I send it back again - sigh.

I am now an extremely disappointed S&W owner......

The cartridges are below - notice the one of the left seems to have a slight oval shape in the vertical. This happens to 3 of the 6 per cylinder.



This is the ammo - it's rated at 750 FPS:
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:48 PM
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You can vent here, but I'd be back on the phone to Smith & Wesson and it would be going back if mine.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:00 PM
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I had a new 29 I bought about thirty years ago supposed to be when they built better guns. It had the same problem you are having. No matter how many times I sent it back and how many different things S&W tried it was never corrected. Finally got rid of it.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:12 PM
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Have you shot any other brand and weight?

Do the unfired factory rounds drop easily into shiny clean cylinder holes without a need to push them to fully seat?

Do the fired cases have burn marks far down the side of the cases?

When the empty cases start to get hard to extract examine the cylinder holes for excessive fouling.

Buying factory ammo is expensive in 45 Colt.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:57 PM
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For extraction, it sounds to me like the chambers are not cylindrical or the surface finish is too rough, or both.

On the flame part, it sounds like excessive cylinder gap. My personal max is .008, but most of my guns are .005 to .006.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by StakeOut View Post
Have you shot any other brand and weight?

*** YES

Do the unfired factory rounds drop easily into shiny clean cylinder holes without a need to push them to fully seat?

*** YES

Do the fired cases have burn marks far down the side of the cases?

*** NO

When the empty cases start to get hard to extract examine the cylinder holes for excessive fouling.

*** Revolver was cleaned thoroughly before testing. Problems started with first cylinder fired.

Buying factory ammo is expensive in 45 Colt.

*** I shoot all factory ammo and mostly jacketed.

Thanks for looking into this...
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Toolguy View Post
For extraction, it sounds to me like the chambers are not cylindrical or the surface finish is too rough, or both.

On the flame part, it sounds like excessive cylinder gap. My personal max is .008, but most of my guns are .005 to .006.
The cylinder was replaced at S&W - I hope they took care of that. I don't have a feeler gauge so have no idea what the gap is.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:34 AM
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The cylinder was replaced at S&W...
Since it sounds like nothing changed, can you tell if it looks like it's a different cylinder than the original?

.
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:58 AM
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Since it sounds like nothing changed, can you tell if it looks like it's a different cylinder than the original?

.
There was a change so I believe they did something to it. It is spitting fire from both sides of the cylinder gap to the tune of 8-inches or so each side and the cylinder is getting soot and burn marks halfway down from the front.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Toolguy View Post
For extraction, it sounds to me like the chambers are not cylindrical or the surface finish is too rough, or both.

On the flame part, it sounds like excessive cylinder gap. My personal max is .008, but most of my guns are .005 to .006.
You were right about the gap! I went out and got a feeler gauge this morning. The cylinder gap is .013 on one side (goes 3/4 of the way through) and a loose .012 from the other side.

So that's where the flames are coming from? Do you know the specs for the gap on the Model 25? It can't be that much. I'm getting soot and burn marks halfway down the outside of the cylinder!

Last edited by JASuro; 06-07-2017 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:50 AM
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If shooting lead, or lead and jacketed, usually .006 is about minimum. For jacketed only, with the cylinder face running true, you can go down to .003 or .004. These numbers require very low endshake, and apply to all revos.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:07 PM
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Was it a NIB used gun, or a new production model? Would you mind telling us the dash number ( -10. etc).
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:13 PM
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S&W now says .012 is acceptable. It's not acceptable to me. .006 is about right if you're shooting lead, a little less for jacketed.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:15 PM
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Was it a NIB used gun, or a new production model? Would you mind telling us the dash number ( -10. etc).
Yes, NIB and the Model is 25-15
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:17 PM
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If shooting lead, or lead and jacketed, usually .006 is about minimum. For jacketed only, with the cylinder face running true, you can go down to .003 or .004. These numbers require very low endshake, and apply to all revos.

Thanks! The endshake is pretty much undetectable. .012/.013 is twice as much!! Now wonder it's flaming like a dragon.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:19 PM
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S&W now says .012 is acceptable. It's not acceptable to me. .006 is about right if you're shooting lead, a little less for jacketed.
From my experience with this firearm .013 is definitely not acceptable. The flaming is very violent. Interestingly accuracy is still very good.
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:21 PM
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Thanks all for your responses. Just dropped the firearm off at FedEx. It' on it is way back to S&W. I really hope they get it straightened out. It is a gorgeous gun. Everything else on it is perfect.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:05 PM
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An update to this thread. I received the Model 25 back from S&W. This was the third time that I sent it in. The test sheet says "Passed Test - No repair required. It also says it was tested with Winchester ammo.

I now realize that I have a brand new $900 paperweight.....

I sent these images in with the letter and the gun showing how the spent cartridges are not round after shot. This is why the extraction is difficult. This is Fiocchi ammo which I shoot with all my other .45s without issues. This model 25 fails with three different kinds of ammo:



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Old 08-15-2017, 02:48 PM
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It appears that one or more of the charge holes are not round. I'd probably pull the cylinder out and measure the charge holes in at least two axis and compare. From your pictures, it looks like the charge holes may be .012-.015 out of round. That would necessitate a new cylinder.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:10 PM
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Yes, it looks like the chambers are pretty bad, judging by the measurements of the brass. Something like that would definitely cause hard extraction. It looks like you need a new cylinder and the barrel set back to close the gap.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:38 PM
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Just me talking here, but I would buy a box of Winchester ammo and try it. There's a very good possibility it will have the same result you've already had, but at least you can say "Did that - didn't work". Going one step further, I would mark the cylinder with something non-permanent, and mark the shells as to which chamber they were fired in, and send it all back to S&W, along with sending a correspondence to their president out lining the problem you've had getting this gun fixed and maybe even a link to this thread.

To those who have been having issues, everything made by man can have imperfections, but having to send a gun back more than once really isn't acceptable. If it were to happen to me, I would find out who sits on the Board of Directors and send each one of them a detailed (but POLITE) correspondence telling them of my problems and lack of the factory getting something repaired satisfactorily. All it takes in one director to get on someone's buttocks to make magic happen.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:58 PM
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Take that micrometer and measure the inside cylinder hole for being out of round. I bet that's the problem which is why the casings are out of round after shooting.
This is totally wrong S&W said there was no problem found but you found the same problem after getting it back.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:31 PM
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Default Bad Cylinder??

My guess is a bad cylinder, and you'll never find it without sophisticated gaging tools the average hobbyist doesn't keep around the house. Plug gages would tell you charge hole diameters at the cylinder front face, but I don't know how you would every check concentricity and accuracy of charge hole bores. You are already noting fired brass that is 0.010 in. out of round. How is the roundness up and down the case wall? You could check that with more external caliper measurements, but the chamber bores can't be readily measured. Neither can their alignment.

I have one semi-silly idea. Try firing one cartridge at a time without anything in the other five chambers and see if it extracts O.K. If all six pass this test then you have pretty strong evidence that the chamber bores are askew.

Speculation again, but if one were drilling and reaming chamber bores with worn out tooling, this is the kind of trouble that would show up. A proof test firing with three rounds might not jam as badly as you are experiencing, hence S&W's claims that all is well.

My experience with M-25's is that new ones are more accurate and tighter than old ones. I'm prejudiced against new ones because of the MIM parts and laminated wood grips, but the new EDM machined bores are the bomb, and old ones have wandering cylinder mouth diameters, depending on what vintage M-25 you have.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:10 PM
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This is what they sent back with the gun - I'm not impressed:
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:26 PM
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Take that micrometer and measure the inside cylinder hole for being out of round. I bet that's the problem which is why the casings are out of round after shooting.
This is totally wrong S&W said there was no problem found but you found the same problem after getting it back.

The real scary part is that they have replaced the cylinder twice, and the barrel once. This gun is now on its third cylinder, which tells me that all the cylinders off the shelf have the same problem.
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Old 08-15-2017, 07:28 PM
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You are correct, now you have a thousand dollar paper weight.
I feel for you...
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Old 08-15-2017, 07:30 PM
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I am reading along here, I certainly understand some of your frustrations too.
The part that I might not agree with is that looking at the fired brass you say it is not perfectly round? Well that does not mean the cylinders are not round. Since you are expanding the brass under pressure and heat when fired it doesn't mean the brass will necessarily return back to 'round' thus one of the reasons for resizing dies when we reload. The rate at which the case cools and the variables in wall thickness and stretching will effect how it cools and what shape it returns to.

I just measured some of my fired and resized Colt cases (Star brass) and the mouth is about .004 out of roundness even after resizing where as mid case length is perfectly round.

The fact that you don't see soot marks on the case sides says the rounds are sealing in the chambers no matter what 'shape' they are.
Oddly all your rounds don't drop out of the cylinder, I could see one or two hanging up but all of them is odd? What is the case length measurement of the rounds after firing? If you wait a little longer letting the fired cases cool do they drop out of the cylinder?
Karl

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Old 08-16-2017, 07:49 AM
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I am reading along here, I certainly understand some of your frustrations too.
The part that I might not agree with is that looking at the fired brass you say it is not perfectly round? Well that does not mean the cylinders are not round. Since you are expanding the brass under pressure and heat when fired it doesn't mean the brass will necessarily return back to 'round' thus one of the reasons for resizing dies when we reload. The rate at which the case cools and the variables in wall thickness and stretching will effect how it cools and what shape it returns to.

I just measured some of my fired and resized Colt cases (Star brass) and the mouth is about .004 out of roundness even after resizing where as mid case length is perfectly round.

The fact that you don't see soot marks on the case sides says the rounds are sealing in the chambers no matter what 'shape' they are.
Oddly all your rounds don't drop out of the cylinder, I could see one or two hanging up but all of them is odd? What is the case length measurement of the rounds after firing? If you wait a little longer letting the fired cases cool do they drop out of the cylinder?
Karl
Thanks for the response. I don't believe that the chambers are out of round either. I think they are oversized at the mouth of the cartridge. That is a given with the .4865 measurement. It seems probable that the brass cannot stretch that much all the way around so it gets narrower perpendicular to the stretch vector.

There are soot marks on the spent cartridges and are pretty pronounced but are not easy to see in the images I posted.

I also measured some brass (same ammo) fired from a Ruger Redhawk. They measured .4765 or .0020 larger than the loaded round. They are almost perfectly round with the largest measurement at .4770 and have no or minimal soot marks. Those spent rounds go in and eject perfectly in all the Model 25 chambers.

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Old 08-16-2017, 09:39 AM
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If Smith & Wesson is either incapable or unwilling to fix it properly, then I'd demand your money (in full) back from them. Your "job" as an owner is to enjoy it - not loath it. If they can't provide you that experience, then I'd get rid of it and get a vintage model. I've never experienced that problem in older versions. Good luck - I know it's very disheartening when you spend big bucks and are let down by a product - been there / done that!
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:32 AM
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I think they are oversized at the mouth of the cartridge. That is a given with the .4865 measurement.
Looking at your picture, & thinking about it, this does seem to be the likely cause.

Is there anyway you can tell if where the cylinder wall (at the case mouth) starts to transitions to the throat is cut improperly? (see arrows in pic.)

That area looks dark in the picture. No doubt powder residue but it may be larger/deeper at that point too.

If you can pinpoint that as the problem it might be easier to get S&W to fix it for you, irregardless of whether it's a new cylinder or not.

They should also fix that large B-C gap problem they created when they poorly fitted the replacement the barrel. Why was the barrel replaced?

Send a couple of the fired cases back with the revolver also, so they can see what you're talking about.

.



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Old 08-17-2017, 06:25 PM
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Looking at your picture, & thinking about it, this does seem to be the likely cause.

Is there anyway you can tell if where the cylinder wall (at the case mouth) starts to transitions to the throat is cut improperly? (see arrows in pic.)

That area looks dark in the picture. No doubt powder residue but it may be larger/deeper at that point too.

If you can pinpoint that as the problem it might be easier to get S&W to fix it for you, irregardless of whether it's a new cylinder or not.

They should also fix that large B-C gap problem they created when they poorly fitted the replacement the barrel. Why was the barrel replaced?

Send a couple of the fired cases back with the revolver also, so they can see what you're talking about.

.
The timeline on the thread is misleading because I never posted that I sent the gun a third time until I got it back - the third time. The barrel replacement took place on the second trip to S&W when they replaced the cylinder on the first trip they left it with the .013 gap.

They will not allow me to send shell cases, I asked the first time.

Here's a scan of the .45 Colt SAAMI barrel specs. The circle in blue is where I measured the cases. The case I measured for the picture expanded to .4865, well beyond the .4806 SAAMI specifies. S&W says the gun is within "S&W specs".

I realize they really could not care less and don't want to or cannot fix it.


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Old 08-18-2017, 01:14 AM
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Here's a scan of the .45 Colt SAAMI barrel specs. The circle in blue is where I measured the cases. The case I measured for the picture expanded to .4865, well beyond the .4806 SAAMI specifies. S&W says the gun is within "S&W specs".
The chamber can't have irregular dimensions though.

I had a 41 Mag that gave hard extractions in anything over a light load. The middle of the chambers were larger than the rest, causing bulged cases & the problem. They replaced the cylinder which fixed the trouble.

I would call & try to talk to someone different & explain patiently the irregularity in the chamber dimensions you noticed.

.

657-5 Bulged Cases - cylinder defect

(-01a)

.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:27 PM
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Problems with a new Model 25 Problems with a new Model 25 Problems with a new Model 25 Problems with a new Model 25 Problems with a new Model 25  
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And I bet they blame their falling stock prices on the election!

Dan
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  #34  
Old 08-24-2017, 06:46 PM
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oldbrownhat oldbrownhat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JASuro View Post
... The barrel replacement took place on the second trip to S&W when they replaced the cylinder on the first trip they left it with the .013 gap..
This got me curious about the gap on some of my revolvers. I don't have a 25, but I do have a 625-8 (45 ACP/AR), and the gap measures .006". The others I measured were: 19-4 (.008"), 14-3 (.002"), Ruger GP100 (.006") and SP101, .357 (also a very tight .002").

I'd say that .013" on your 25 is pretty much out of the ballpark; possibly in a different stadium. I just measured my "leaky" old 1917 Webley .455 Mk.VI and it's .016".
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  #35  
Old 08-24-2017, 06:59 PM
Protocall_Design Protocall_Design is offline
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The chambers can be larger in the middle if they let the chips build up too much during the chamber reaming process. The parts pointed out with red arrows in post #30 look like the normal chamber to throat transitions, but can't tell anything without measuring.
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  #36  
Old 08-24-2017, 07:45 PM
JASuro JASuro is offline
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
The chamber can't have irregular dimensions though.

I had a 41 Mag that gave hard extractions in anything over a light load. The middle of the chambers were larger than the rest, causing bulged cases & the problem. They replaced the cylinder which fixed the trouble.

I would call & try to talk to someone different & explain patiently the irregularity in the chamber dimensions you noticed.

.

657-5 Bulged Cases - cylinder defect

(-01a)

.
Wow! that is bad. A lot worse than mine. They are not able to fix mine so in a sense mine is worse....
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  #37  
Old 08-24-2017, 08:18 PM
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One question i haven't seen yet is what kind of accuracy you getting? I got one of these 25's on my next to buy but after reading this IDK now.
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:20 PM
jhnttrpp jhnttrpp is offline
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Some one said send an email to the board of directors. Well they don't make it easy but I tried to do that tonight. I don't know if it will get through or not but I gave it a shot. I'll let you know if I get a response. I was polite.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:08 PM
llowry61 llowry61 is offline
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James Debney is the CEO and he as well as other Executives can easily be found on Linked In. I would PM him and every other executive that shows up such as Matt Buckingham and Dan Fontaine. Don't let up. If you get to one of these guys your problem should get solved.

L
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