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Old 07-14-2017, 01:52 AM
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SIGHT IN FORMULA

To determine the correct sight height to correct an elevation problem, multiply the sight radius, in decimals by the elevation error and then divide the results by the distance to the target, in inches.

Example 1
Sight radius 5 3/4" = 5.75
Shooting 5 inches low
Distance to target 25 feet or 300 inches

5.75 X 5 divided 300 = .09583

The front sight would have to be lowered .096 inch or the rear sight raised that amount (or a combination there of) to raise the point of impact.

Example 2
Sight radius 4" = 4
Shooting 6 inches low
Distance to target 25 yards or 900 inches

4 X 6 divided 900 = .0266

The front sight would have to be lowered .027 inch or the rear sight raised that amount (or a combination there of) to raise the point of impact.

Internal Lock

Lots of curiosity on this subject so I'll leave a few pictures for members that would like to see what it looks like.


The first thing you do is remove the stocks and slide plate. When you lift the hammer off it's stud, you will see this cam or what some call the flag. The flag is the part on your gun which goes up or down to lock or unlock your revolver.

As you turn your key, this twisting motion is the force which lifts the flag to lock your gun.
Attached to the flag is a tiny wire spring. The other end of that spring is placed into a small notch in the frame. The spring is not pictured in these pictures. It's located on the back side of this view. This tiny spring is the power behind your flag dropping down, "unlocked."

The way they assemble it at the factory, the lock goes in first, then the bolt and so on. The bolt is that black bar in the picture. The cam (painted red) basically rides inside the hammer. It's a very simple lock.

My only intention is to educate members about the IL mechanism.

Because of legal ramifications, I'm not recommending the IL be removed or modified.






Range rod to check barrel/cylinder alignment

In case anyone would like to know how to inspect their revolvers using these inspection tools, here are the instructions:

The use of a standard service diameter insert gauge also called a plug gauge and/or range rod to check barrel/cylinder alignment. Do this test automatically as a part of checkout on all accuracy problems, lead spitting complaints, and as a part of accurizing and tuning work. This is the basic test for misalignment of cylinder to barrel (or reverse). The usual small, built in variations in manufacturing variations in revolvers are compensated for the funneling affect of the forcing cone. Additional clearance undersizing of the gauge insert makes passing this test easy for the majority of production revolvers. A match diameter gauge (available in .38 caliber only) is also available.

Make this test with the barrel pointed straight up. This allows the insert to automatically find center. To test alignment, cock the hammer back into firing position at each cylinder (on newer revolvers hold trigger down to the rear) and then slide the insert down through the barrel and cylinder junction while feeling for entry and travel resistance. With a correctly aligned yoke, straight ejector rod, center pin and a clean barrel, all revolvers should allow a standard service gauge insert to pass thru without resistance or drag. If entry into the cylinder is resistive in all or most chambers, and yet cylinder alignment checks, block the cylinder stop and retest with the cylinder block unlocked. If the results are the same, something is tweaked. The frame is the likely candidate. But if only one or two chambers show resistance, then there is a possibly of deformity or abnormality at the cylinder locking slot or at the ratchet.

Use the larger 38 cal “match” gauge insert for the closer tolerances required in match or competition work. Standard 38 service gauge inserts measure in at nominal diameter of .345” while the match gauge runs around .3455”. When working with the larger diameter custom bull barrels designed for hollow base wad-cutters, you should use a slightly larger insert such as .350” or .3505” for precision work.

It is a bit foolish in my opinion to consider using match diameter gauge insert in a production barrel, with the serious expectation that it will gauge at this diameter. Although, I have found that some production barrels will, particularly earlier K-38 revolvers.

My personal range rods measure at the following:
22 LR .2179”
38/357 .3446” (standard rod)
44 cal .4157”
45 Cal .4417”


Polishing stainless

What I found to clean and polish my stainless guns is gray (medium) and finish up with white (very fine) scotch brite pads with a little gun oil to help move the metal. Brush the pads to the original "grain" and you won't need to use any polish at all. The guns will look much better than original. REMEMBER tape over any laser engravings or you will rub them away very easily.

When working with Scotch brite pads always start with the finer grades to test the finishes applied.

Don't use steel wool. it's messy and you run the risk of rubbing carbon into the surface which might rust the finish.

If you don't want the brushed look, Mothers Mag polish is recommended by myself and others here on this forum. This polish applied will make your revolver's finish look like a professional machine buffed job in short order. I tried many polishing compounds and even tried lapping compound on the finish but Mothers is amazing stuff. Again, don't rub the laser markings!

The glass beaded surfaces can be polished off so use care around top straps as well.

Blue guns are not fixable and need to be sent back for a re-blue. Cold blue (over the counter products) will not match the S&W blue finish.


Gun stocks or grips

S&W tends to call them stocks. Most everyone else calls them grips. On early models, the guns serial number is placed inside the right grip panel.

The best way to remove grips is to unscrew the screw a few turns and tap the head of the screw with the screwdriver handle to push the right grip panel off the frame. Prying the grips with a screwdriver should be avoided.

Fancy grips of pearl, ivory, stag exotic wood, or other wood were available from S&W as well as aftermarket suppliers. Around 1893 factory grips had the S&W medallions inlaid into the grips, while aftermarket grips were plain with no medallions. Pearl and ivory grips may be found with checkering or relief carvings.

Tip-up revolvers all carried smooth rosewood stocks.

Top-break revolvers such as Schofield’s, Russians and the American carried standard smooth walnut grips.

Hard rubber grips came into the seen around the late 1870s. Checkered wooden stocks were very common on the new model #3. The nickel baby Russian’s was made with hard rubber grips, while the blue Russians were given wood stocks. Most hard rubber grips had the logo at the top of the grip. There was a red rubber variation, which was only found on the revolving rifle. I have read that blue grips were reported seen on them as well.

Early Hand Ejectors
Grips were hard rubber in the beginning but were soon replaced with walnut. The large N frames began in walnut in 1907. Gold inlaid medallions made into walnut from 1910-1917. From 1917-1929 standard walnut grips had no medallions. From 1929 chrome or silver medallions were introduced.

Magna (service grip) grips were now offered as an option on the .357 in 1935. Magna grips are made higher on the blackstrap, while leaving the front and rear strap of the frame exposed. These grips became the common style. In later years, they were considered the service grip.

Grip adapters are metallic or rubber pieces that fit on the front strap of the grip frame. S&W as well as others made them. They were found on police revolvers mostly until Pachmayrs came into being.

The diamond grips have a diamond of uncheckered wood around the grip screw and escutcheon. They were introduced as early as the 1880s and were standard into the 1960s.

Coke bottle grips are diamond grips made in the 1950s and 1960s, which have a girlish or coke bottle appearance to them.

Modern revolvers.
Exotic woods such as Birdseye maple (1950s) or Rosewood until about 1978. Goncalo Alves from South America, replaced walnut around 1975 to become the standard for oversized target grips. These grips are standard on large framed revolvers. Large target grips were also offered in smooth (no checkering). Speedloader cutouts were common in the 1980s.
Combat grips (with finger grooves) are common in both square and round butt conversions.

Today, S&W no longer makes grips and it’s common to find rubber grips on all standard revolvers. The massive X frame, 460 and 500 Magnum revolvers uses the L frame round butt grip. Today round butt frames are our only option, so grips are found in a round butt or conversion grip style that simulates the old square butt feel, made in wood or rubber.


500 rubber (X frame conversion grip), smooth combat (notice the speed loader cutouts), target, J frame service (or Magna) and smooth target grips new in package




Barrel Length / Muzzle Velocity


A little over 20 years ago the American Rifleman staff did a test using a 44 Magnum revolver equipped with a 18" barrel that was shortened in one inch increments. Five shots were fired at each barrel length, with each of the three brands of factory loads, Federal, Winchester and Remington, all using 240 gn bullets. The instrumental velocities shown are the averages obtained, after smoothing the data to remove the effects of random variations in velocity and thus to represent the incremental velocity changes more accurately.

1" 742 FPS
2" 935
3" 1067
4" 1165
5" 1239
6" 1298
7" 1345
8" 1384
9" 1417
10" 1445
11" 1469
12" 1490
13" 1508
14" 1525
15" 1539
16" 1552
17" 1564
18" 1575


Side plate removed

Here is a picture of a 686-3 L frame 357 mag under the hood. It gives the user an idea of what the action looks like. The hammer block has been removed for the picture.




Removing Rear Blade

To swap the rear blade:

When changing the rear blade on S&W revolvers, turn the windage screw clockwise until the screw breaks. Then remove the nut by unscrewing if from the base. Use a plastic bag to catch the tiny spring and plunger that is located inside the screw head.

Reinstall the parts and tighten the retaining nut fully then back it off ¼ turn. Use the stacking tool and crimp the nut. Job done!

Tools look like this:


Rebuild kit looks like this:






Check Sing

In a panic situation, the hand could skip by a ratchet, and the gun won’t fire.

Press trigger back enough to clear the cylinder stop, then spin cylinder. Listen for the hand clicking on the ratchets.

Press back and left = Left sing
Press back and right = Right sing
Press back straight = Neutral sing

If your right handed you normally pull the trigger to the right.

If no right sing: Bend hand over to right side of the window. To do this simply insert screwdriver underneath the hand and lift upward.

If no left sing: You will have to remove hand and tap it with a hammer to bend the hand over to the left side of the window.

The third way it could be out, where you can’t correct the right or left sing, the hand is twisted.

Ideally, you want the gun to sing no matter how the trigger is pulled. New guns may not be adjusted proper, either. Check yours for fun...


500 Magnum custom compensator

** NOTE I done these mods years ago but the parts are no longer available. If you locate a 460 comp, it still can be done!**

S&W doesn’t sell a break with no holes for the 500, (like the 460 Magnum) so I modified a 460 into a 500.

This is how I did it:

Face the back of the compensator off .02 with a lathe. Maintain the shoulder outside step at .04 and the over all length of .905 long.

Bore the inside first shoulder step back .02. The inside diameter is .805 so don’t over cut this dimension as it aligns up on the front of the barrel.

Then bore the hole thru at least to .531 so that big slug can find it’s way out. I made mine a little bigger at .550 inch.

It locks up snug in my revolver and it looks factory but it’s not!








Feeler gauge inspection

Here are the general specs for basic checking on S&W revolvers.

Whenever I check the specs of S&W revolvers there are 3 things that I check, air gap, head space and endshake.

In a nut shell here is how I do it.

AIR GAP:
Proper air gap on S&W revolvers is .004-.010 inch. Rotate the cylinder and check it in more than one spot. The cylinder won't be perfectly square, it will vary some. Measure it at the forcing cone. Too little gap the gun will jam, too much and the gun will start spitting, plus lower bullet velocity and accelerated top strap erosion.

Endshake:
Set end shake for less than .002". Here is how I test it. Push the cylinder forward, check it. Pull the cylinder back, check it again. The difference is endshake. Measure it at the forcing cone.
If I need to adjust it, I use end shake bearings, instead of peening or flaring the yoke's barrel. A gun needs some endshake to run, too little and it will jam, too much creates all kinds of problems, possible light hammer strikes, poor carry up etc.

Head space:
Here's how I test it: With new or once fired cases in all chambers (no primers). Wedge the cylinder back by placing a shim between the barrel and cylinder face (a gap gauge works well. This forces the cylinder back where the extractor's hub is bottomed out on the recoil shield. You should have .008-.012" (.010" optimum) gap between the case heads and the firing pin hole on the frame.

Keep in mind the ejector and cylinder are made and fit at the factory to work together for proper head space. Swapping parts may throw off the head spacing.

Normally, head space doesn't change unless someone files down the hub of the ejector.

I added the gage specifications below for each particular caliber (from the armorer's manual):

38,357,41,44 .060"-.068"
22 magnum .004"-.008"
45 ACP .090"-.094"
45 Long Colt .060"-.068"

38,357 w/cylinder Counter Bore .012"-.018"

In addition no revolver should be adjusted to a single action trigger pull of less than 3 LBS.


What is MIM?

Here is an older post that I have copied here, what is MIM?

By popular request, here's the post from Mr. Herb Belin of S&W -----------------------
"I have read with much interest the many comments in this forum pertaining to MIM, MIM Parts and the use of same in a S&W product. So far I have come away with several impressions and they are "people in general don't like/trust MIM parts" and "no one has said why" I will take a stab at this issue and see where it goes.

As background to our decision to use MIM in some areas of our Mfg Process we took a long hard look at our "Life Time Service
Policy". It was clear to us that any change in any of our products such as the use of MIM components had to show equivalent or better performance and durability to those components that were being replaced or the "Lifetime Service" would haunt us forever. The second consideration was to determine if the change was too radical a departure from S&W mainstream design.

For the performance and durability issues we decided that if MIM could be used for the fabrication of revolver hammers and triggers successfully this would truly be an "Acid Test". There is nothing more important to a revolvers feel than the all-important Single Action Sear that is established between the hammer and the trigger. Mechanically few places in a revolver work harder than at the point where the hammer and trigger bear against each other. If these surfaces wear or loose there "edge" the "feel" is lost. Initial testing was on these two critical parts. Over time we arrived at a point where our best shooters could not tell the difference between a revolver with the old style hammer and trigger and the new MIM components. Special attention was given to their endurance when used in our very light Magnum J frames such as the early prototype 340 & 360 Sc's. None of our revolvers work their components harder than these small magnum revolvers. Throughout this testing MIM held strong and finally we determined that this change judged on the basis of durability and feel was a good one.

The second area of concern to S&W was our customer’s reaction to this departure from the traditional. Many heated, intense discussions resulted but in the end the decision was made to move ahead with MIM.
The issue of cost was only one of the considerations in making this decision. Equally as important was the issue of part-to-part uniformity and the result of this of course is Revolver-to-Revolver consistency. We found that revolvers that used MIM hammers and triggers required almost no Fitter intervention in those areas during final assembly and final inspection and Trigger Pull Monitor rejection rates dropped markedly on finished guns. From an internal process point of view it appeared a "Winner".

Lets shift gears for a moment and talk about the MIM process. It is unclear to me as to the reason for many of the negative feelings on the forum concerning MIM. Typically when people complain and aren't specific in the reason why, the problem is often created by a departure from the "Traditional". Perhaps that is indeed what is bothering some people when they view MIM.

The term MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding. It holds some similarities to Plastic Injection Molding and many differences as well. To start we would take a finally divided metal powder. This could be stainless or carbon steel. Today even Titanium is being used in some MIM fabrications. We would mix the metal powder and a thermoplastic binder (generally a Wax) forming slurry of sorts when heated and inject this mix into a precision mold and finally form what is known as a “Green Part". This part is roughly 30% larger than the finished part it will become at the end of the process. Interestingly enough the Green Part at this stage can be snapped in two with simple finger pressure. The Green Parts are then placed in a Sintering furnace filled with dry Hydrogen gas and the temperature is brought almost to the melting point of the metal being used. Over time the "Wax" in the Green Part is evaporated, the metal fuses and the part shrinks 30% to it's final correct dimensions. At this stage of the process the MIM part has developed 98 to 99%of the density of the older wrought materials and a metallurgy that is almost identical. Dimensionally it is finished and no machining is required. However the job is not yet done and the MIM parts are brought to our Heat Treat facility for hardening and in the case of Hammers and Triggers, Case Hardening. Depending on the particular metal alloy that was used at the start of the process we apply a heat treat process that is the same as would be used if the material were the older wrought style. Final hardness, Case thickness and core hardness are for the most part identical to parts manufactured the older way.

Lets look for a moment at how we achieve dimensional precision when comparing these 2 processes. The old parts were each machined from either bar stock or a forging. Each cut and every resulting dimension was subject to machine variations, Cutter wear, operator variations etc. If every operation was done exactly right each and every time and the cutter didn't let you down you would have produced a good part but sometimes this didn’t happen resulting in a rejected gun and rework or in the worst case an unhappy customer. With MIM parts you must still machine to very high tolerances and your cutters have to be perfect and your machinist has to be highly qualified but all of this only has to come together one time. That time is when the injection mold is made. Typically a mold for this process costs S&W between 30,000 and 50,000 dollars. Once it is perfect every part it makes mirrors this perfection and you have in my view a wonderful manufacturing process.

Hopefully this description will help us all better understand the MIM process.
Please forgive the spelling errors and misplaced punctuation. I have no spell checker on this and the phone continues to ring!

Have a Great Weekend,
Herb

Additional Point.
Currently S&W is paying about $1.20/Lb for stainless steel bar stock. Raw MIM stainless steel inject able material costs $10.00/Lb."


Probable causes for a cylinder that doesn't open or close smoothly:

loose extractor rod
bent extractor rod
loose thumb piece nut
short or worn center pin
end shake cylinder or yoke
dirt under extractor
yoke out of adjustment
worn bolt
worn locking bolt
worn yoke button
worn yoke screw
tight yoke screw
ammunition rubs frame or primer flow
worn recoil plate firing pin bushing


Flame cutting


Here is a picture of what flame cutting looks like. The gun is my 629 44 mag.
Flame or gas cutting is quite normal and is nothing to worry about. If a revolver has been fired it will have some degree of flame cutting. Flame cutting usually stops after a time and won't get any worse.





DCU or timing

DCU (doesn't carry up) or basic timing is easy to check.

How I check basic timing is pretty easy to do. Without touching the cylinder or holding back the cylinder just gently cock the hammer slowly in single action, (on all stations) and see if the cylinder stop snaps in place before the hammer falls. When the trigger is pulled to the rear (MIM triggers will rotate the cylinder further when the trigger is pulled) and the cylinder stop didn't snap into the cylinder notch, then you have a problem.



One thing I must insist, before swapping the parts make sure it's not a loose fitting ejector causing your dry fire and poor carry up problems. This is true with non-pinned cylinders. Drop empty cases into the chambers then check your carry up. Sometimes the gun is fixed when cases are inserted in the chambers.



As the extractor ratchets, hand, and hand window wear, they get to a point where the hand won't rotate the cylinder far enough to allow the cylinder stop to snap in before the hammer drops (carry up condition in DA mode). This is not a hand length issue, it’s a hand width problem. If you take the side plate off and watch carefully in the hand window while pulling the trigger, you will see the hand cams off of the ratchets and the left side of the hand tip positions against the right section of the ratchets to rotate the cylinder those last few degrees.

Unless a gun has been fired a zillion times, the hand and the window seldom show wear, except for the left tip of the hand. Most times when you see a hand loose in the window, it's because it was shipped that way.
Factory hands run from about .093 to .095" and wide hands run about .098 to .100" There shouldn’t be more than .001 side play between the hand and window.

If the hand has worn thinner, or the hand window has worn wider, or the edges of the ratchets have worn thinner, you will start loosing carry up. Without fail, the ratchets are the most usual cause.

There are several solutions. The absolute best one is to replace the extractor (ratchets). Unfortunately, that’s a factory fitted part and you can't buy one without sending the gun back to the factory.

The next best option is to fit a wider hand. This will have nearly the same effect as a new extractor because it will take up the slack from ratchet wear and make the cylinder rotate a few more degrees. When the wider hand is fitted, you must widen the left edge of the hand window so the hand will be positioned a few thousands to the left.

An undesirable option is to lay a fine bead of weld on the right edge of the hand window then dress some material from the left edge of the window. This will position the hand closer to the ratchet and make the cylinder rotate further. Welding that thin of metal is sure to do some damage to the finish and could ruin the frame.

You can bend the tip of the hand slightly to the left. This will also cause the cylinder to rotate a bit father. The hand is made of some very hard material and will fracture if you try to bend it without first softening it. You have to heat the tip of the hand until it is red hot then let it cool to room temperature. It will then be soft enough to bend without breaking. Once you get the hand tip bent, you must re-harden the hand. Herein lies the problem. Most of us don't have the proper metallurgy skills to re-harden the hand. If it is soft, it will soon wear out.

One of the very precision specs in an S&W revolver is the hand-to-ratchet clearance. A few thousandths makes the difference between good and bad carry up. You want the hand tip to be touching the ratchet but not binding on it when the trigger is pulled. Basically a zero clearance.

If you insert the tip of the hand into the window, it should move freely with minimal side play. The tighter the better, as long as it doesn't bind.

The left side of the window creates a reference point in respect to the ratchets. You must move the reference point to the left before the wide hand will make the cylinder rotate more. That means you must take metal off of the left side of the window. Use a "safe" window file for this. Taking metal off the hand or the right side of the window moves the reference point the wrong way.

Once your wide hand is installed, the tip of the hand may bind on some of the ratchets. This will cause a bad gag in DA trigger pull. With the side plate off, watch through the hand window as you cycle the gun in DA. You will see where the hand cams off of the ratchet and the point of contact between the hand tip and each ratchet. Dress the ratchets at the point of contact so the hand is touching but not binding.

Go slowly changing the hand. It's easy to do and will fix your timing (DCU) problems.


To correct push off

The hammer notch must be square, sharp and not rounded. It's only .005 inch tall so use a eye loupe to inspect it. Use a new stone to true it up, if it's not square. (I like ceramic stones for this) Then after the hammer is proper, stoning the trigger will correct the push off.

Remember use a 6 inch long stone. Changing the stone length will affect the trigger pull.



To test the trigger hook, you scrap it on your thumb nail. If nail is scraped off, you got it sharpened correctly.

If you want a lighter single action pull, you dull the angle by lightly stoning the angle parallel to the table top.


New style firing pin removal

When you pull the side plate off, the upper pin (that aligns the plate) is the firing pin retainer. Remove the pin, spring and firing pin will come out.




DETAIL STRIP

Find a perfect fitting screwdriver.

Remove the grip.
(The best way to remove grips is to unscrew the screw a few turns and tap the head of the screw with the screwdriver handle to push the right grip panel off the frame. Prying the grips with a screwdriver should be avoided).

Unscrew all the screws on the side plate, don't mix them up.

Roll gun over, push the thumb latch in and open the cylinder.

Slide yoke and cylinder off the frame, go easy not to scratch it.

Roll gun back and find a plastic hammer and tap the frame (near where the grips would be) and the side plate will come loose.

Remove slide plate.
(The proper way is to use the handle of a screw driver and strike firmly the frame where the stocks normally are. Keep your thumb over the side plate and it will pop off easily).

Lift out the hammer block (sheet metal part with a hole on one end, hook on the other).

Loosen strain screw and remove main spring. (J frame insert cotter pin into hole, remove from stirrup).

Pull thumb piece to rear. Press trigger to cock hammer, lift hammer up and off the stud.

Find a screwdriver, and pry the rebound slide off the stud, rebound spring and stem will fly out so keep a finger over opening.

Pull back the hand to clear window, then wiggle trigger off the stud.

You can remove the cylinder stop and bolt but the gains are not worth the trouble.

But if you must, then flip gun over and unscrew thumb piece.

Flip gun back, pull bolt to rear and lift out of frame, watch out for plunger and tiny spring.

Pry out spring for cylinder stop, let the stop drop down and remove stop.

Reverse the operation to put it back together. Find a special rebound slide tool to put the rebound spring back on. It looks like this:



Remember all the guns from J frame to X are nearly all the same internally.

The hammer block sits all the way up before the slide plate goes back on. One end sits on the stud of the rebound slide, the other end sits in front of the hammer. Picture of 500:




Here is a picture of a 686 without the hammer block:




CYLINDER DETAIL STRIP

Once the cylinder in on the table it can be totally taken apart.
Guns which are about 40 years and newer the ejector rod is counter-clockwise. Older than this the threads are clockwise.

Place empty cartridges into the cylinder.

Using a drill chuck, turn extractor rod and unscrew it. (Don't mar the knurl on the end)
There are 2 springs inside, a collar, center pin and the ratchet. Keep finger pressure on the ejector rod so the springs don't fly off the table.

Reassemble in the reverse order. You don't need lock tite on the threads.

You could use a tool like this instead of the drill chuck, if you prefer:



X FRAME CLYINDER:

Here is a picture of what the parts look like.



To disassemble: turn knurled end clockwise, remove nut and slide the yoke off. Be careful not to mar the knurl. I use a clothes pin under pliers.
Then using a drill chuck, turn extractor rod clockwise to remove the extractor assembly.

(all threads are counter-clockwise)


Here is a picture of all the J frame parts spread out for your pleasure.



The larger frames K,L & N have an additional part called the extractor rod collar. This part shows in the earlier diagram of the model 29 I posted earlier.

A note on working on extractor rods:

"Hand tight" is not good enough, and you don't need locktite.
Put the rod into a drill chuck and tighten it a little further.
A second way is to purchase a tool that will give you the needed leverage. The tool is sold on ebay or Brownells.

Remember don't grab around the knurl or you will mar it which will look unsightly.
Also, add fired cases into the cylinder BEFORE tightening it down to avoid damaging the pins (if equipped) or spline.



Hand and Torsion spring

Here is the basic set-up


On the new MIM guns the hand spring is different. The pictures below is how it looks assembled. If it fly's apart, look at the pictures to aid you in reassembling it. Remember that there is a "blind" cutout area where the short side of the spring fits, inside the trigger. The other side of the spring gets bent behind the hand stud in the normal way and when all assembled it's fine. Remember, the spring fits on the side that the hand is positioned.





ON Modern MIM HAND TORSION SPRINGS

There is a "blind" cutout area where the short side of the spring fits. The other side gets bent behind the hand stud in the normal way and when all assembled it's fine. Remember, the spring fits on the side that the hand is positioned.








YOKE ENDPLAY

To adjust the yoke screw:
Use a file and lightly file the bottom of the screw until the cylinder swings without a lot of resistance. I like them with a bit of drag, but not binding.

If you tried the screws, then the yoke stud is too long (or the slot is worn) and needs to be adjusted.

You need to flatten the button of the yoke. Find a 1 inch round bar (Babbitt bar would be nice) and place the yoke body on it. Using a hammer lightly tap the button (on the corner) to make it flatter, (peen only 1/2 way around) then if you need to, file out the slot where the screw fits so it can be tightened up. Only file what you have to, or it will be loose again. You're trying to narrow the slot opening where the screw goes (Look for the screw rub mark). Your not trying to move the whole 9 yards, just deform the slot.
Tap lightly, check the fit often.




Cylinder stop



A cylinder stop is fit it to the cylinder first. You fit it to the smallest notch in the cylinder, and they will vary a little. Then you fit it to the trigger. Make sure that when the trigger pulls it down, that it does not pull the ball out of the frame window. If you leave it set where the ball drops below the opening, it can get offset to one side and hang up inside the frame.

When originally fitted, the stop is timed so that at no time the top of the ball drops below the edge of the window in the frame. If it does, it can stick in the down position. So, they tend to not have them rise above more than they have to lock the gun. On the top of the cylinder stop right behind the start of the hook, is an adjustment step. By filing it down, you allow the cylinder stop to go further up through the window and engage the cylinder notches deeper. The adjustment step is for when it wears, you can adjust it. By having the stop rise a little more, it compensates for wear in the notches and locks the cylinder better. If that does not rise up high enough to lock the cylinder, then you will need to fit an oversize stop.

When fitting an oversized stop, measure the width of the stop where it engages the cylinder and make sure you get one at least as wide. You can end up with an undersized stop that will be worthless to you.





This is a close up of the stop in a 686-3




Hammer Block Location

When removing the side plate, some members get into a bind when something falls out.
This slender bar is called the hammer block. When replacing the hammer block, it will sit exactly like the picture shown. All the way up on the rebound slide pin.

This picture is of my 500, but the hammer block location is the same on ALL model revolvers.




INTERNAL LOCK REMOVAL and REASSEMBLY

Please review the earlier FAQ posts on complete detail stripping the revolver.
Once your up to speed, lets remove the lock!

J L N or X frame lock parts are all the same procedure.


The first thing to do is remove the side plate and hammer to expose the lock.



Now remove the bolt. Be careful, you have a tiny spring and plunger, which will fly off if your not careful. Pull the bolt up from the rear and lift it out of the frame. Then to make it look cool, I take the rebound block and trigger assembly out too. Lay it all a side.



Carefully, lift the flag up, and at the same time unhook that tiny wire spring where it is attached to the frame. Here is a close up of the flag. Look carefully and you will see a tiny wire spring.
Here is the Problem! If this spring is weak or if it breaks the gun jams up.









Now, back to the gun, I just use a dental probe and twist off the large coil spring. Once the spring is removed, slide the fork forward, at the time it clears the cylinder hole in the frame, push the cylinder out from the frame.








To reassemble this IL is a tad harder to do. These parts are tiny! Here is how I do it.

Place the coil spring and fork together. Slide it home onto the frame. Using that dental probe, push the fork forward, compressing the spring. Once you clear the hole in the frame, drop the cylinder in. (Look carefully at the cylinder, there is a notch where the fork fits into it, so the parts fit only one way).

Then when the cylinder and fork are in, place the flag in that hole in the frame. Carefully flip the wire spring into the frame notch.

Then put the bolt back on. Slip the front into the breech face and use a screwdriver and compress the bolt plunger and spring, press the bolt home into the frame.

Then finish the reassembly from your previous readings in the FAQ.

The owners of this site are not responsible for any tampering that you perform on the lock mechanism. The info posted here is for disassembly and reassembly during cleaning.


Smith & Wesson revolver terminology

When discussing S&W revolver parts, it's best to know what each part is called when dealing with ordering or explaining problems. This is out of an old 29-2 owners manual. The part names haven't changed over the years.







LOCTITE REMOVAL

If you ever run into a loctite product don't panic! You can still turn that screw or push that sight with a little know how.
To disassemble Locktite, apply localized heat to the assembly to approximately 482 degrees Fahrenheit. Disassemble while hot (if it cools it will re-strengthen). Heat sources could be a butane torch or believe it or not, a toaster oven. (When removing gun sights, I throw the slide into the oven for a few minutes).


Just for your concerns, aluminum will melt at around 1220°F while steel is much higher at around 2700°F. Don't worry about the heat treating, only the critical action parts are heat treated such as triggers or hammers and so on. (If the metal rods inside your toaster oven don't warp under the broil setting, your SW1911 slide will be just fine!)

Have fun.



Test Hammer Spring

First, make sure the hammer spring (main spring) is flat. Check this by removing it from the gun and laying it on the table. If it’s not flat, use a rubber mallet and tap it down.
This is how I test the main spring: Always keep the strain screw tight. Then you hang weights off the hammer until the proper poundage is reached.

You file the strain screw down to adjust the poundage to at least the minimum setting. Remember, the strain screw is always fully tightened, and the side plate is on when doing this work.
Gun empty! (for 22 revolvers, put fired cases in chambers.)
Dry fire gun and hold trigger fully to rear. (The muzzle is pointed straight up while you do this test).

Cock hammer with thumb, then hook a weight around the hammer (3 1/2 LB min weight for 357. 3 ¼ LB for 38 special) I hang the weight with a piece of string looped on the end of the hammer.
The hammer must not move rearward (further back under the weight) when the gun is lifted, while the weight is attached.
The factory has heavy triggers because they don't need any accidental discharges or any extra lawsuits. Also the guns have rough spots that the heavy springs cover up. The guys putting them together don't care if it's done right or not either.

Sometimes an extra long firing pin may help with poor ignition problems. But the spring must be right too.

A “home” gun smithing way of reducing trigger pull: if you don't want to file down the screw, then using blue locktite (thread locker) back off the strain screw until the gun misfires, then go back in 1/4 turn.
Some guys cut the main spring down by removing strips (long wise) to weaken it.


With my guns, I always run full power main springs but put reduced power rebound springs to help with the double action trigger pull. This is the best way of keeping ignition yet having a lighter pull. As long the trigger resets quickly, the rebound spring is the correct one for your application.


Cylinder turn line

The cylinder turn line is normal with Smith and Wesson revolvers. However, it can be adjusted where the line won't dig in or be extra pronounced if you have a highly buffed or engraved gun which the turn line could diminish it's cosmetic appeal.

This is how to adjust it. Take the cylinder stop out of the gun. Use a grinding wheel, lightly round the left hand side of the stop about a 1/3 it's way across the top. In doing this "trick" it will have less bearing to rub on the cylinder, plus there are no sharp edges to dig into the cylinder as the cylinder is rotated. Remember only the left side is trimmed! Otherwise the timing will be altered...
This is hard to photograph, but this picture will give you the idea what I'm trying to show.





FIX FOR ENDSHAKE

You have 3 types of fixes for endshake.
First way is peening the yoke barrel to stretch it. Some smiths do it this way.
The 2ND way is using a tubing cutter sort of tool and squish the tube to stretch it. This is the S&W way.
The 3RD way is the best way in my opinion. This way uses what they call endshake bearings. They are hardened stainless steel shims that fit inside the cylinder and add length to the yoke barrel.

So, break down the cylinder and get the yoke off the gun.
Now the first thing to do is clean up the bottom of the cylinder (that ridge inside, at the bottom of the cylinder), where the yoke sits on. The tool I use is a 3/8 endmill (or swap it for a dremel type stone if you wish) and rub the sides down to make the endmill safe (or stone safe) so it won’t cut on the inside diameter of the cylinder.
Using a drill press, place the cylinder in a vise. Put the endmill in the drill chuck. Using the quill insert the tool inside the cylinder. Turn the chuck by hand (NO POWER) and clean up the bottom of the cylinder. You want to remove that ridge made by the yoke. Make the bottom of the cylinder look clean and flat.

Now, turn your attention to the yoke, using a yoke squaring tool, trim the end of the yoke barrel so it is clean and square.



This is a close up of what the yoke squaring tool looks like.




So at this point all the mating parts are square, flat and clean. The bearings are ready to go in.

That's it for the hard part. Now it's time to put it together and check it out. Add a few drops of oil on the bearings then place the desired amount inside the cylinder. Reassemble the cylinder on the gun and check your work. Ideal endshake is less than .002 inch.

This “new way” won’t damage the yoke. If done properly, the repair will last for thousands of rounds.



How to straighten a bent extractor rod

I don't do locktite, neither will the factory on extractor rods.

There are several things to look at to determine what is causing the run out. It might be the rod that has an obvious bend to it. It might be the extractor rod collar that isn't parallel. It might be the thread portion of the extractor rod that is bent.
Once you try and tighten it up, any reason above will cause the whole rod to run out, yet when loose the rod appears fine.

This is how I adjust them. Find a lead/babbit bar. Anything will work as long as you don't flatten the threads or ding up the extractor rod. That is why something softer than the extractor rod will work. Chuck up the rod in a drill press chuck/ lathe chuck. I use an indicator, but a sharp eye will work too. As you roll the extractor rod around, tap the high side down. Get it to run straight. If you have an indicator set it for .001 run out.

To determine if the collar is bad, you need to measure it is several places with a micrometer to see if it is made parallel. .001 out of square will cause the end to be out 1/32" or more at the tip of the extractor rod.

Use a tool like this to tighten it up, not your fingers!



Another way is to use leather straps in a vise to protect the extractor rod, and tighten it that way. Make sure you insert fired cases in the chambers to protect the alignment pins as you tighten it up.


Filing Ratchets

There is no jig for filing ratchets (as far as I know). Once you locate the long ratchet, you file it carefully like the picture shows. This is out of my old armorer's manual.





Revolver safeties

You have 3 safeties on a modern S&W revolver. The top circle is showing the bolt as it blocks the hammer as the cylinder is open. The 2ND safety is on the bottom where the rebound block is. The hammer can't go forward if the trigger is not pulled. But years ago, this failed once and got a sailor killed, so they added another safety called a hammer block.

This is a little bar that floats in front of the hammer, shown in the bottom picture.





If your gun has an exposed hammer, play it safe, don't remove it.



MIM HAND

This is my most asked question. If someone removes the trigger and the hand spring flys off....

Here are a few pictures of a modern revolver how the hand attaches to the trigger. If you pop this off by accident it's a PITA to figure out how it goes back on!

There is a "blind" cutout area where the short side of the spring fits. The other side gets bent behind the hand stud in the normal way and when all assembled it's fine. Remember, the spring fits on the side that the hand is positioned.






Cleaning your S&W revolver

This is my method. I remove the stocks and place them aside. Then I remove the side yoke screw and slip the cylinder and yoke as a complete unit off the frame and place it aside. Keep the cylinder and yoke together, don't separate them.

I brush the barrel as normal and wipe the frame clean and dry.

Then I turn to the cylinder and yoke.

NEVER remove the cylinder from the yoke as you brush out the charge holes (small wires and crud may go inside the cylinder where the yoke fits causing endshake problems or binding). NEVER break down the ejector rod to it's smaller parts (by doing so the ejector rod will lose it's tightness and you will have loosening problems. Only disassemble the ejector if you need to, not when you want to).
Don't over brush the rear face of the cylinder. By over brushing this area will cause undo wear on the revolver by opening up the air gap. Once the air gap is over tolerance the barrel will need to be turned to correct the air gap setting.

Once the cylinder is clean and dry, then you can remove the yoke from the cylinder and wipe the drum clean, then add a drop of oil. Then reassemble it to the frame.

Doing these simple things will prevent headaches when maintaining your revolver.



Front sight replacement

Some modern revolvers have this style front sight.



If you decide you would like to swap it for another type, you simply find a proper fitting punch and drift out the pin. Then place the new sight on the barrel. The new sight will need to be drilled using a #54 Drill.

I don't bother with a drill press, I simply drill the new sight on the gun, from both sides of the new sight so you don't damage the revolver itself. Go 1/2 way then drill from the other direction until the drill breaks thru. No mistakes this way.





How to fit a new hand


Hand fitting does violate "file the cheapest part" rule. Before a wider hand will do any good, it must catch the ratchets closer to the center of the cylinder. This means you must file the hand's window only on the left side and only enough to allow the hand to move freely in the window. If you take metal off of the right side of the window or from the hand itself, you won't accomplish a thing, in fact you might make timing worse. In other words, you have to move the hand's point of contact to the left.
Installing a wide hand compensates for wear on the ratchets outer edge. The idea is to force the cylinder to turn a little farther and get a good lock-up. If the left tip of the hand is worn, it will not rotate the cylinder far enough. In this case, you can install a standard width hand to restore timing.
Hands are made of some hard stuff. It is a good idea to use some 400 grit sandpaper to break the sharp front edges of the hand so it won't bite into the window.
DCU or timing

DCU (doesn't carry up) or basic timing is easy to check.

How I check basic timing is pretty easy to do. Without touching the cylinder or holding back the cylinder just gently cock the hammer slowly in single action, (on all stations) and see if the cylinder stop snaps in place before the hammer falls. When the trigger is pulled to the rear (MIM triggers will rotate the cylinder further when the trigger is pulled) and the cylinder stop didn't snap into the cylinder notch, then you have a problem.



One thing I must insist, before swapping the parts make sure it's not a loose fitting ejector causing your dry fire and poor carry up problems. This is true with non-pinned cylinders. Drop empty cases into the chambers then check your carry up. Sometimes the gun is fixed when cases are inserted in the chambers.



As the extractor ratchets, hand, and hand window wear, they get to a point where the hand won't rotate the cylinder far enough to allow the cylinder stop to snap in before the hammer drops (carry up condition in DA mode). This is not a hand length issue, it’s a hand width problem. If you take the side plate off and watch carefully in the hand window while pulling the trigger, you will see the hand cams off of the ratchets and the left side of the hand tip positions against the right section of the ratchets to rotate the cylinder those last few degrees.

Unless a gun has been fired a zillion times, the hand and the window seldom show wear, except for the left tip of the hand. Most times when you see a hand loose in the window, it's because it was shipped that way.
Factory hands run from about .093 to .095" and wide hands run about .098 to .100" There shouldn’t be more than .001 side play between the hand and window.

If the hand has worn thinner, or the hand window has worn wider, or the edges of the ratchets have worn thinner, you will start loosing carry up. Without fail, the ratchets are the most usual cause.

There are several solutions. The absolute best one is to replace the extractor (ratchets). Unfortunately, that’s a factory fitted part and you can't buy one without sending the gun back to the factory.

The next best option is to fit a wider hand. This will have nearly the same effect as a new extractor because it will take up the slack from ratchet wear and make the cylinder rotate a few more degrees. When the wider hand is fitted, you must widen the left edge of the hand window so the hand will be positioned a few thousands to the left.

An undesirable option is to lay a fine bead of weld on the right edge of the hand window then dress some material from the left edge of the window. This will position the hand closer to the ratchet and make the cylinder rotate further. Welding that thin of metal is sure to do some damage to the finish and could ruin the frame.

You can bend the tip of the hand slightly to the left. This will also cause the cylinder to rotate a bit father. The hand is made of some very hard material and will fracture if you try to bend it without first softening it. You have to heat the tip of the hand until it is red hot then let it cool to room temperature. It will then be soft enough to bend without breaking. Once you get the hand tip bent, you must re-harden the hand. Herein lies the problem. Most of us don't have the proper metallurgy skills to re-harden the hand. If it is soft, it will soon wear out.

One of the very precision specs in an S&W revolver is the hand-to-ratchet clearance. A few thousandths makes the difference between good and bad carry up. You want the hand tip to be touching the ratchet but not binding on it when the trigger is pulled. Basically a zero clearance.

If you insert the tip of the hand into the window, it should move freely with minimal side play. The tighter the better, as long as it doesn't bind.

The left side of the window creates a reference point in respect to the ratchets. You must move the reference point to the left before the wide hand will make the cylinder rotate more. That means you must take metal off of the left side of the window. Use a "safe" window file for this. Taking metal off the hand or the right side of the window moves the reference point the wrong way.

Once your wide hand is installed, the tip of the hand may bind on some of the ratchets. This will cause a bad gag in DA trigger pull. With the side plate off, watch through the hand window as you cycle the gun in DA. You win see where the hand cams off of the ratchet and the point of contact between the hand tip and each ratchet. Dress the ratchets at the point of contact so the hand is touching but not binding.

Go slowly changing the hand. It's easy to do and will fix your timing (DCU) problems.


Barrel thread types

J frame .500"-36 threads.
K Frame .540"-36 threads.
L Frame .562"-36 threads.
N Frame .670"-36 threads.



Range rod use

I copied this from somewhere, the info is sound....

Figure 144 shows the use of a standard service diameter insert gauge also called a plug gauge and/or range rod to check barrel/cylinder alignment. Do this test automatically as a part of checkout on all accuracy problems, leas spitting complaints, and as a part of accurizing and tuning work. This is the basic test for misalignment of cylinder to barrel (or reverse). The usual small, built in variations in manufacturing variations in revolvers are compensated for the funneling affect of the forcing cone. Additional clearance undersizing of the gauge insert makes passing this test easy for the majority of production revolvers. A match diameter gauge (available in .38 caliber only) is also shown.

Make this test with the barrel pointed straight up. This allows the insert to automatically find center. To test alignment, cock the hammer back into firing position at each cylinder (on newer revolvers hold trigger down to the rear) and then slide the insert down through the barrel and cylinder junction while feeling for entry and travel resistance. With a correctly aligned yoke, straight ejector rod, center pin and a clean barrel, all revolvers should allow a standard service gauge insert to pass thru without resistance or drag. If entry into the cylinder is resistive in all or most chambers, and yet cylinder alignment checks, block the cylinder stop and retest with the cylinder block unlocked. If the results are the same, something is tweaked. The frame is the likely candidate. But if only one or two chambers show resistance, then there is a possibly of deformity or abnormality at the cylinder locking slot or at the ratchet.

Use the larger 38 cal “match” gauge insert for the closer tolerances required in match or competition work. Standard 38 service gauge inserts measure in at nominal diameter of .345” while the match gauge runs around .3455”. When working with the larger diameter custom bull barrels designed for hollow base wad-cutters, you should use a slightly larger insert such as .350” or .3505” for precision work.

It is a bit foolish in my opinion to consider using match diameter gauge insert in a production barrel, with the serious expectation that it will gauge at this diameter. Although, I have found that some production barrels will, particularly earlier K-38 revolvers.

My range rods measure at the following:
22 LR .2179”
38/357 .3446” (standard rod)
44 cal .4157”
45 Cal .4417”


Rebound springs

I like to reduce the rebound spring pressure to lighten my trigger pulls.

This is factory spring weights:

Stock rebound S&W revolver spring is rated for 18 LBS.

Aftermarket springs run 11-15 Lb reduced power rebound springs.
Some have problems with 11 LB springs. The trigger sometimes won’t reset and some don’t feel a difference on the 15 LB spring. I would install a 14 LB spring and see how it feels. I won’t replace the mainspring for a defensive gun.


Timing

Timing, more accurately, "carry up", is the most misunderstood concepts with S&W DA revolvers. Gun owners and even some gunsmiths have tried to transfer technology from Colt or Ruger DAs to S&Ws and thus, a misleading gun legend was born.

First, in a S&W it's the width of the hand not the length that pushes the cylinder those last few degrees. If you pull the sideplate and look in the hand window while you operate the action, it becomes very obvious.

When you cock the hammer in SA or pull the trigger in DA, the tip of the hand catches a ratchet and rotates the cylinder. Near the end of the stroke, the hand cams off of the ratchet. The left tip of the hand pushes against the side of the ratchet and rotates the cylinder those last few degrees. The fit between the right side of the hand and the hand window, plus the fit between the left tip of the hand and the ratchet determine how much the final rotation will be.

Again with the side plate off, you'll notice the hand is directly coupled to the trigger. The farther the trigger is pulled, the higher the hand moves. With some S&Ws, the hand doesn't rotate the cylinder far enough to lock up until the trigger is pulled to shoot, and that's perfectly OK.

Most S&Ws will time a bit early and lock the cylinder in place before the hammer drops. Though most shooters think this is a requirement, it's really not. S&W makes the ratchets a bit wider to allow for wear and slight variations in the manufacturing process. Bottom line: as long as the cylinder latches before the bullet exits the cylinder, carry up is OK. Some models depend on trigger over travel to reach lock up.

S&W has used several different types of hands, even within the same model. Each style of hand affects carry up a little different. With the new MIM guns, hands and ratchets are no longer hand fitted. It is very normal to get a new gun where the hand binds up due to variations in parts (not good).


AIR GAP

Proper air gap on S&W revolvers is .004-.010 inch.
Endshake less than .002

Headspace

Here are the general specs for basic checking on S&W revolvers.

Whenever I check the specs of S&W revolvers there are 3 things that I check, air gap, head space and endshake.

In a nut shell here is how I do it.

AIR GAP:
Proper air gap on S&W revolvers is .004-.010 inch. Rotate the cylinder and check it in more than one spot. The cylinder won't be perfectly square, it will vary some. Measure it at the forcing cone. Too little gap the gun will jam, too much and the gun will start spitting, plus lower bullet velocity and accelerated top strap erosion.

Endshake:
Set end shake for less than .002". Here is how I test it. Push the cylinder forward, check it. Pull the cylinder back, check it again. The difference is endshake. Measure it at the forcing cone.
If I need to adjust it, I use end shake bearings, instead of peening or flaring the yoke's barrel. A gun needs some endshake to run, too little and it will jam, too much creates all kinds of problems, possible light hammer strikes, poor carry up etc.

Head space:

Here's how I test it: With new or once fired cases in all chambers (no primers). Wedge the cylinder back by placing a shim between the barrel and cylinder face (a gap gauge works well. This forces the cylinder back where the extractor's hub is bottomed out on the recoil shield. You should have .008-.012" (.010" optimum) gap between the case heads and the firing pin hole on the frame.

Keep in mind the ejector and cylinder are made and fit at the factory to work together for proper head space. Swapping parts may throw off the head spacing.

Normally, head space doesn't change unless someone files down the hub of the ejector.

I added the gage specifications below for each particular caliber (from the armorer's manual):

38,357,41,44 .060"-.068"
22 magnum .004"-.008"
45 ACP .090"-.094"
45 Long Colt .060"-.068"

38,357 w/cylinder Counter Bore .012"-.018"

In addition no revolver should be adjusted to a single action trigger pull of less than 3 LBS.


FIX FOR ENDSHAKE

You have 3 types of fixes for endshake.
First way is peening the yoke barrel to stretch it. Some smiths do it this way.
The 2ND way is using a tubing cutter sort of tool and squish the tube to stretch it. This is the S&W way.
The 3RD way is the best way in my opinion. This way uses what they call endshake bearings. They are hardened stainless steel shims that fit inside the cylinder and add length to the yoke barrel.

I use a 3/8 endmill (or swap it for a dremel type stone if you wish) and rub the sides down to make the endmill safe (or stone safe) so it won’t cut on the sides. Using a drill press place the cylinder in a vise. Put the endmill in the chuck. Using the quill insert the tool inside the cylinder. Turn the chuck by hand (NO POWER) and clean up the bottom of the cylinder. You want to remove that ridge made by the yoke. Then using a yoke squaring tool, trim the yoke barrel so it is clean and square. Add a few drops of oil on the bearings then place the desired amount inside the cylinder. Reassemble the cylinder on the gun and check your work. Ideal endshake is less than .002 inch.

This “new way” won’t damage the yoke and if done properly will last for thousands of rounds.
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