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  #1  
Old 10-25-2017, 04:53 AM
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Default vacuum sealing for long term storage???

Any thoughts????
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:19 AM
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gun or the ammo?

For long term gun storage I would go with something like the Blueguard VCI storage bag.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:03 AM
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For long term storage of ammunition nothing beats USGI steel military ammunition cans. Just check to make sure the rubber seal in the lid is in good condition.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:16 AM
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Default It seems to work like gangbusters....

It seems to work like gangbusters for metal parts, so with proper care at sealing, maybe with a small desiccant bag, and you can look and see if it's ok w/o unsealing it.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:39 AM
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Lightly coat with Rig and store in a dry location. Ammo can, factory box or similar container.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:16 AM
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For long term storage of ammunition nothing beats USGI steel military ammunition cans. Just check to make sure the rubber seal in the lid is in good condition.
New plastic versions can do an even better job, IMO. No rust issues and no potential bomb issues if caught in a house fire.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:28 AM
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New plastic versions can do an even better job, IMO. No rust issues and no potential bomb issues if caught in a house fire.
You might want to rethink that. I thought so too until I saw this:

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Old 10-25-2017, 11:01 AM
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New plastic versions can do an even better job, IMO. No rust issues and no potential bomb issues if caught in a house fire.
I disagree.

We took 4 feet of water in our walk in basement during hurricane Irene, and I only lost a few boxes of ammunition that were stored in one GI can that was missing a hinge pin, which in turn prevented a perfect seal. The other 20 or so cans were just fine, and they were one of the last things we bothered cleaning up.

You have to store them in very wet conditions for a long period of time for rust on the outside to ever be an issue, and if you have moisture on the inside, you have far bigger issues.

Plastic can be as effective as steel, but it is bulkier and just as heavy or heavier as it requires a much thicker case for a comparable level of strength and impact resistance. Also, when it comes to impacts, you'll dent or bend a steel ammo can and still have a useful can in situations where you'd just have a broken plastic case.

So when we are talking about effective plastic ammo cans, we are talking about heavy plastic like that used in Pelican cases, etc.

Even when purchased surplus, good quality plastic cases are more expensive. For example a few weeks ago I bought four .50 caliber cans at $5.00 each. Admittedly, that's a good price as $7 to $10 each is more the norm. In contrast at that same show I bought similar sized surplus Pelican cases for $15 each, which was a phenomenal price for them.

---

As for the "bomb" issues, that's just hyberole.

Yes, plastic will probably melt before the contents start to burn. However, a steel ammo can isn't going to contain enough pressure to create a bomb after the ammunition inside starts to cook off.

After all, militaries all over the world have been using steel ammo cans since before WWII, and an enormous number of them have burned over the years without being a problem.

-----

Edit:

As noted in the video above, the cans he's talking about in the video are not good enough quality to protect against anything but splash, spray, and maybe a good heavy rain. They are not designed for or intended for immersion in water.

I will add that I had a video camera in a Storm Case that washed out of our basement during Irene. It was found under someone's dock across the sound about 3 months later by a contractor rebuilding the dock. The case was dry inside despite setting sail in a hurricane and then being submerged under the remains of a dock for 3 months. Would I store ammo in it with confidence? Absolutely, but they are not cheap to buy compared to GI ammo cans.

Last edited by BB57; 10-25-2017 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:10 AM
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You might want to rethink that. I thought so too until I saw this:

Ammo storage cans ONE YEAR experiment at the bottom of a muddy pond! - YouTube
This guy might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. You can perform that same test with something non perishable or inexpensive. A hand full of nails along with some rocks for weight to hold it down will work just as well as several boxes of ammo for test purposes.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:37 AM
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Check your basement or the dark dusty corners of your cabinets. You might find:

[IMG]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFg**jAw/z/W~kAAOSw8RJXCdfS/$_12.JPG?set_id=880000500F[/IMG]
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:54 PM
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If using a vacuum seal plastic material I would be cautious of any transfer from the plastic as in contamination. The sealed bag would do its job keeping out moisture but the plastic bag making contact with metal and wood parts may have its own issues.
I think' elpac3' has pointed you in the correct direction if you were to use a vacuum bag method
Karl
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
This guy might not be the sharpest tool in the shed.
I was wondering why he was struggling with breaking the wired seal on the ammo can when there are wire cutters at the base of the jaws of his Leatherman tool.

Regards,

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Old 10-25-2017, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
This guy might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. You can perform that same test with something non perishable or inexpensive. A hand full of nails along with some rocks for weight to hold it down will work just as well as several boxes of ammo for test purposes.
Well ya......... no need to 'risk" good ammo in that test.....

BB57 Great minds think alike!!!!!
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
This guy might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. You can perform that same test with something non perishable or inexpensive. A hand full of nails along with some rocks for weight to hold it down will work just as well as several boxes of ammo for test purposes.
I thought the same thing when watching the video, but nevertheless, his point is valid.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:54 PM
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It doesn't hurt for ammo. You should be aware though that non-corrosive primers will start to go bad in 30-40 years or so, maybe a bit longer. Corrosive primers last longer in storage. I guess it depends what you call long-term.
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Old 10-25-2017, 08:30 PM
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The US Military has about the highest spec's, testing regime, and qualifications of anybody or any agency I know of. Basically the steel GI ammo cans the Military have been using all these years has remained unchanged and the simply fact is BECAUSE they work so well.

To me, if it's good enough for the US Military it's good enough for anyone!
I never buy the Chinese made steel copies or the plastic ones for that mater either. Genuine Steel US Military cans are readily available and in the long run are really the best & very reasonable to buy.

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Old 10-25-2017, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
It doesn't hurt for ammo. You should be aware though that non-corrosive primers will start to go bad in 30-40 years or so, maybe a bit longer. Corrosive primers last longer in storage. I guess it depends what you call long-term.
I've got a couple of cases of non-corrosive FA50 M2 Ball that shoots just fine. It has the zinc plated primers of test ammunition when the military was planning on switching over to all non-corrosive. Guess that's a bit longer that 30-40 years.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
It doesn't hurt for ammo. You should be aware though that non-corrosive primers will start to go bad in 30-40 years or so, maybe a bit longer. Corrosive primers last longer in storage. I guess it depends what you call long-term.
Really? I'm still shooting 30/06 from WWII. And 7.62x39 from Lord knows when......I have ammunition in my collection from pre WWII and it will still go bang. So you primer theory doesn't wash. Ammunition stored dry and relatively cool will last almost forever.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:29 PM
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There are chemical sprays on the market (one is system to preserve leftover paint) that are heavy inert gases, that are used to spray into cans of paints and other chemicals that displaces the air and moisture by forcing it out of the top of the can. I do not see why if you are going to seal ammo and guns in a GI Ammo with a good seal, that by spraying this into the can you will displace the air/oxygen and eliminate any change of moisture damage.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:31 PM
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I am surprised that your WWII 30-06 has non-corrosive priming. Also a lot of the unknown origin 7.62X39 is corrosive. Also, as far as I know, it isn't like an on-off switch. It is more of a gradual deterioration resulting in unreliable ignition. I have fired ammo older than me (65) and it shot fine. I have also shot ammo 50 years old that had very erratic ignition.

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Old 10-26-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elpac3 View Post
gun or the ammo?

For long term gun storage I would go with something like the Blueguard VCI storage bag.
The VCI storage bags sounds interesting. Have you had any experience with brownells gun wrap paper?
How about a combination of gun wrap paper and a seal a meal vacuum sealer?
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:40 AM
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I use VCI paper that is 16" square and wrap the gun in it after it has been lightly oiled, then it goes in a gun rug and stored in my safe. I live in a high humidity area and have had no problems so far.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
I am surprised that your WWII 30-06 has non-corrosive priming. Also a lot of the unknown origin 7.62X39 is corrosive. Also, as far as I know, it isn't like an on-off switch. It is more of a gradual deterioration resulting in unreliable ignition. I have fired ammo older than me (65) and it shot fine. I have also shot ammo 50 years old that had very erratic ignition.
30/06 Greek HXP from the CMP. Non corrosive. Remington UMC/Winchester Nitro/Peters Victor shotshells and REM-UMC steel cased 45acp from WWII from long, long ago........Still goes bang. So your dying primer theory is still a wash.......Your 50 yr old ammo probably got wet or was stored improperly. Heck. I have my reloads from 15-20 yrs ago stored in GI ammo cans that is still as reliable as if I had loaded it yesterday.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:54 AM
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30/06 Greek HXP from the CMP. Non corrosive. Remington UMC/Winchester Nitro/Peters Victor shotshells and REM-UMC steel cased 45acp from WWII from long, long ago........Still goes bang. So your dying primer theory is still a wash.......Your 50 yr old ammo probably got wet or was stored improperly. Heck. I have my reloads from 15-20 yrs ago stored in GI ammo cans that is still as reliable as if I had loaded it yesterday.
There are some other variables involved, and individual success stories with corrosive primers don't prove much of anything, other than well stored ammo lasts longer.

1) If you store your ammunition in a non air conditioned shed in a desert, the prolonged exposure to high heat will accelerate the decomposition of the primer compound. The powder will also degrade much quicker.

2) If you store it in an environment where it sees extremes of heat and cold, the primer compound will break down sooner, and so will the powder.

But in general, when everything else is equal, the chemistry of
corrosive primers is more stable, and they will last longer than non corrosive primers. That's particularly true when the storage conditions are poor (i.e. high heat and/or variation between extremes in temperature).

There's a reason for the Soviet preference for corrosive ammunition long after most other militaries moved to non corrosive ammunition and that reason was the potential for ammo to be stored for decades under very poor conditions. That's also the reason Soviet ammo was tightly packed in absorbent paper inside sealed tins. At the end of the apocalypse what will be left will be high levels of radiation, cock roaches and fully functional Soviet bloc ammo.

-----

In addition, if there is moisture inside the ammo can, it will condense on the cool sides of the can and then re-evaporate as the can warms up. Both are reasons to a) ensure the ammo is dry when you store it, b) ensure the can is tightly sealed and b) avoid temperature extremes.

However, provided you are packing the ammo in reasonably dry conditions, such as in an air conditioned house, where the humidity is low, and the can is reasonably full, there just isn't much space for air and given that air is reasonably dry, there won't be enough moisture to cause any problems.

If on the other hand, you are packing your ammo on a day with 90 degree heat and 100 percent humidity, you need to be aware that this the moisture in the air in the can will condense out if the can is stored in cooler conditions. Think fog forming inside the can and the water settling on what ever is in there.

In that case a desiccant pack makes sense, but don't go crazy as the space is small, the amount of moisture is small, and if the can is sealed, no air (and moisture) exchange will occur, so a 5 gram desiccant pack is plenty.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by automac View Post
The VCI storage bags sounds interesting. Have you had any experience with brownells gun wrap paper?
How about a combination of gun wrap paper and a seal a meal vacuum sealer?
Have not used the gun wrap paper inside a seal-a-meal bag. The VCI bag is all I have used. The bags are designed to release a molecule that plates out as a vapor one atom thick on the metal surfaces preventing oxygen from bonding to the surface which will create rust.

These have been used both tin the civilian world and military world very effectively. The advantage with this system in there is no oil that will stiffen up with time and the gun will not require cleaning before it is ready to shoot. This also gets into EVERY space, crack and thread as the molecules are small gas molecules and will go where ever air can go.

The secret to having this work properly though is to have a clean, non-oiled gun as to let the vapor corrosion inhibitor molecules plate directly onto the metal.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
New plastic versions can do an even better job, IMO. No rust issues and no potential bomb issues if caught in a house fire.
Plastic may seem like a better idea until the first time you drop one that is full of ammunition. The good news is your body will benefit from all of the bending over and touching the floor repetitions you will be doing picking up the ammunition that is scattered all over the floor.

As for the "bomb" claim I have no plans to be near my house if it is burning down.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:58 PM
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For anyone who is interested Buds has new production mil-spec steel ammo cans on sale right now.
30 cal ammo cans 2 for $20
50 cal ammo cans 2 for $24
50 cal "fat" ammo cans 2 for $32
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:26 PM
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I stored all my firearms in cheap foam-lined gun cases in my air-conditioned closet in S. FL with no more than a light rub down of Outers gun oil. They stayed there untouched for nearly 20 years with no sign of rust.

Don't overthink it.
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:14 PM
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Let's revisit an old thread as I have a question... What about a gun wrapped in VCI paper in a VCI bag then vacuum sealed? Wood/ rubber grips removed and stored separately in case?
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Old 10-08-2020, 08:57 PM
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I started shooting and gathering ammo in 1968. Since then, for all these years, the ammo has been stored in an upstate NY basement, in an old kids locker taken out of a demolished school. The basement is relatively dry (never got flooded), and of course its not hot down there.

Right now I have 7.5 MAS from 1973, 30-06 from 1952 and 7.62 x 54R from 1988. I am assuming they are all non-corrosive, since I am not anal about cleaning the guns and I have no rust yet.

Also, I have what I assume IS corrosive and the guns are cleaned before they even go back in the case: 8MM from 1935 and 1946, and 8 x 56R from 1938.

Of course, I have no knowledge of how the stuff was stored before I got it, but all are fairly shiny brass and all are 100% go boom.

The only old surplus I ever had trouble with was some .303 British that was filled with cordite, not ball powder. They all went click-boom and all remaining rounds were disposed of.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
I am surprised that your WWII 30-06 has non-corrosive priming. Also a lot of the unknown origin 7.62X39 is corrosive. Also, as far as I know, it isn't like an on-off switch. It is more of a gradual deterioration resulting in unreliable ignition. I have fired ammo older than me (65) and it shot fine. I have also shot ammo 50 years old that had very erratic ignition.
In the late 70’s I bought a bunch of US GI 45 ACP dating as far back as the teens. If I remember right the oldest was 1913 but most were from the 20 and 30’s. Nearly all went bang but there was a few hang fires and most of the duds were FA 33. The ignition was erratic could often feel a very very slight delay and often a brilliant muzzle flash I assume was powder burning up after leaving the barrel. Wasn’t perfect but even at late 70’s price of a nickel per round it was a bargain. Most if not all brass split after hand loaded the first time. My buddy also bought a bunch and got one dated 1912 that he saved rather than shoot it. I discovered and Barnes’ Cartridges of the World confirmed it. Frankfort Arsenal brass from the 30’s used a smaller sized primer. Barnes couldn’t find any reason in his research for the oddball primer size.

Just in case you’re wondering the ammo was corrosive. My shooting bud and I disassembled and cleaned our 45’s on my tailgate before leaving our desert shooting spot. We had some of the old GI cleaning solvent that stunk to high heaven but it was made specifically for corrosive ammo.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:12 AM
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I understand ammo if "Built" the proper way would be hard to make go bad and I have Vaccum sealed some up with said guns.... I guess the point of no air no rust but if some how a bit of moisture got in then its a problem.... I will be removing the seals then removing the stocks from said guns.... another question I present is how to properly store stocks in order to prevent warp? 1 set of magnas and 1 set of 1911 style grips ..... ?
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:12 AM
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Many people think that plastic is impermeable, but that is far from the truth. Depending on what type of plastic is used, water and air transmission is not only possible, but will happen over time. Thinner the plastic, the more permeable it is. Store anything in a vacuum sealed bag and over time it will measure the same humidity inside the bag as outside. The biggest problem is that once moisture enters, it takes a long time to dissipate. That could be bad for ammo or other collectibles in high humidity environments. Plastic also degrades over time and the longer is it exposed to oxygen, the more it will allow moisture to permeate.

As for guns, the same issues exist as for ammo. I see no reason why one would not want to pick up the guns in their collection sometimes and it is just not the same looking through a plastic bag. Why do we collect guns?? To just accumulate them and never really see them or study the design and mechanism, or shoot them once and awhile begs the question why own them?

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...5&d=1602857424
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:35 PM
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Last year, on a whim, I used our Seal-a-Meal to bag a box of .38 spl. I emptied the box into the bag and my wife ran the machine. So far, the bag of ammo looks the same as the day it was bagged. I think I can get more ammo into a steel military can by removing it from the boxes and bagging it up. Just an experiment.
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Igiveup View Post
Last year, on a whim, I used our Seal-a-Meal to bag a box of .38 spl. I emptied the box into the bag and my wife ran the machine. So far, the bag of ammo looks the same as the day it was bagged. I think I can get more ammo into a steel military can by removing it from the boxes and bagging it up. Just an experiment.
I still have a "seal-a-meal" bag with three 22LR boxes in it. I sealed it 40yr ago and it still looks good.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:37 AM
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I had a banking career, mostly as a lending officer for over 40 years. I just gathered up bank zippered deposit bags. A very large bank for which I initially worked had accumulations of competitor banks' zipper bags gathered up over the years available for the asking. As the handgun collection grew more bags were acquired.

Zipper bags come in different sizes, top opening and side opening. Overall they've become smaller over the years. I have some older bags that house 6 1/2-inch N-frame Smith & Wesson and Colt New Service revolvers.

The very old bags which were going out of style in the mid-1970s were made of canvas with brass zippers. Bags made of vinyl became popular. The vinyl bags had either the brass zippers or steel zippers. I did not prefer the steel zippers for they would scratch a handgun's finish. Bank bags have mostly been made of vinyl with plastic zippers for the past two decades.

I do have a single old canvas bank bag, but am reluctant to store blued steel guns in it. It's never rusted a gun, but I now use it to store a .40 Smith & Wesson shield.

Handguns are wiped with RIG before being stowed in the bags then put on shelves in the safe. I've used this method for storage since the 1970s and have several handguns which have been stored in their same ol' bag in this way since the 1970s and always with perfect satisfaction. The bags are thin so more handguns fit on shelves. Pistol rugs are too padded to be satisfactory. The bags keep handguns from scuffing and and chafing each other. Pistols go out for "exercise" in these bags when they are placed in my shooting box.

Many banks will have an accumulation of competitors' bags that they have taken out of circulation free for the asking at the tellers' windows. Or, they will sometimes give or sell one of their own deposit bags if asked.

Bags are available online and sometimes overruns or accumulations may be found on Ebay for cheap.

NetBankStore.com: Zipper Bags
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:47 AM
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I had an old Ruger Blackhawk that was in fair condition that I decided to Vacuum seal and put in with my survival equipment in the back of my Alaskan airplane. I coated the gun with WD40 and put it away. Two years later when I sold the plane, I retrieved it All of the cartridge primers (5, one not chambered) were soaked and would not fire. Good thing I never needed it in a survival situation. I did have an extra box outside of the vacuum package, but it wasn't until I tried to fire it that the primer issue became obvious. DUH.......
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:17 AM
Hoosierville IRN Hoosierville IRN is offline
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Glad you didn't need those cartridges!
Memo for record: unload gun, then coat in WD-40. Store ammo separately.

BTW, so many have said not to use WD40 on firearms. I've used it for years...it displaces water (hence, WD) and I've had little to no rust on the exterior of my firearms. I don't clean with WD40, however.
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Old 10-20-2020, 12:36 PM
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OOoo ... I don't know about WD 40.

I did a test on it out in the garage years ago and on bare steel it seemed to actually attract rust. A cousin once said the same thing, that WD 40 contributed to causing rusting on his admittedly well used and abused and neglected Winchester Model 12 shotgun.

It's for certain that, as a rust preventative, WD 40 falls short.
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:16 PM
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Well I got curious and check the 2 I sealed up along with the ammo and mags.... vacuum seal was dead. it was all loose after 3months. They were un scaved so I resealed them up and will re visit this in another 3mo...

As a note... they are lubed properly wiped clean of all prints, wrapped in vci paper x3sheets in a VCI blue bag then inside a Vaccum bag, in their cases in a box taped up in the big metal lock box...
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Old 10-21-2020, 10:05 PM
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I've taken 100 rounds of several different handgun calibers and vacuum sealed them. I have them in a grab bag with a shoulder strap and put in the trunk of both of our cars. I will rotate it out every year or so. It's compact and ready at hand. They will easily slip down into the cargo pockets on my Carhart shorts I usually wear during the summer too.
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