Hi, I have an old 19-3 S&W with 6" barrel. I checked the timing on it in single action and while the cylinder stop locks the cylinder before the hamme goes all the way back,it is pretty late in the cycle. In double action, however, it locks somewhere as the hammer falls, so can't hear or feel it, but if I catch the hammer with my thumb, the cylinder is locked. On other revolvers I hear a distinct click before the hammer falls as the cylinder locks then. So the 19-3 is a bit late in its timing. I tried using a bigger hand, but it had no effect. Could this be the result of some trigger job (I bought it used, so no idea of the history)? The original hand looked a bit scratched on top, no idea how that happened... any suggestions on how to improve the timing?

Oversized hands are available from Power Custom. The new, oversized hand will most likely have to be fit to the gun. S&W may also be able to provide an oversized hand if needed.

POWER CUSTOM S&W COMPETITION HAND | Brownells

What was the width of the new hand that you tried? A hand that is .002" -.003" wider than the one that is in the gun should take care of the late timing.

Before checking for proper carry up, you'll want to confirm that the cylinder assy and the yoke are clean and properly lubricated, and that the rear gauge or headspace is set properly. (absence of excess endshake) Rear gauge should be .012" - .014" (recessed cyl)

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

I took it apart fully, cleaned all parts, including cylinder. Endshake fixed (used shims to fix it) and head space is 0.012". The lock up is very positive and tight. The SA lockup also happens when dragging a finger on the cylinder.
The new hand I got was 0.003" wider than the old hand, so I was expecting more of a difference; I used an oversize S&W hand, not Power Custom. It's almost like the clockwork just does not carry the hammer back as far as it should, if that makes any sense.
I looked up Explanation of the Smith & Wesson Double Action Mechanism and it feels like what is shown in Fig 3 (area A on the trigger, as the article calls it) does not engage with the hammer in double action. In other words, when I play with the hammer and trigger and no rebound slide or main spring in the gun, the trigger slips off the sear and the hammer instantly goes forward without touching the trigger (using my finger to mimic spring pressure).

It's possible that the DA cam on the hammer foot or on the trigger (shown below) are either worn, or have been modified, which can also make the carry up late.
If excessive wear (or damage) is found here, replacement of the hammer and/or trigger may be necessary, as added gauge on the hand may not be sufficient to solve the problem.

Here's a better illustration of the DA realease point:

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Thank you for the diagram. I will have to check again but I have a feeling that may be the problem. I guess I have to buy more parts

I looked at it in more detail, and it does seem like it works as in the diagram, when using magnifying glasses to see details. The ratchets are fairly beat up when looking with magnification, still in SA it does time ok, though fairly close to hammer locking back. I don't see too much being done to the trigger and hammer, so it doesn't look like a botched trigger job. But with cylinder lock engaging close to hammer locking back in SA and DA having less of a hammer travel arc, I guess is the reason for the late-ish DA timing. After the hammer does fall even when pulling the trigger very slowly, the cylinder is fully locked, and alignment is good even with the match range rod....

Can you advise what the width of the larger hand was that you substituted in your effort to solve the hand / ratchet issue? I may have one that's a bit wider that you could try.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

ARE YOU DRAGGING THE CYLINDER. If you are that is NOT the correct method for checking the Timing on a S&W revolver. BTW, I am also not a fan of the super slow motion timing checks now so popular on the Net. Before the Net the typical means of testing was at a pace a bit slower than a Bullseye competitor might use for the 50 yard targets. Because the S&W is first and foremost a Combat firearm and you won't be pulling the trigger in super slow motion when someone is shooting at you. Basically the S&W is designed to make use of a bit of inertia to insure the cylinder locks up. As for why this was done, it was to allow a bit of "slop" in the action to insure that everything would function properly even if the pistol was filthy with mud.

Now, if you timing issues are taking place without any drag on the cylinder it may be that the ratchet is plain wore out. If so you'll need to have a new ratchet fitted to your cylinder. I'm not sure if S&W will still do this type of repair on a 1972 or so vintage revolver but if they will it would be wisest to just let the factory correct the problem. Because memory has it that cutting the pawl requires a special tool that is pretty much exclusive to S&W.

Scooter,

Testing carry up with a light drag on the cylinder did not start with the internet. During the 1970s that was how my employer cherry picked $75 police surplus Model 10s. He taught me the goal was have Model 10s he was certain would lock up even if they were dirty or something else like being inside a pocket put drag on the cylinder. For my own reasons I prefer and pay more for S&Ws that will pass that test. I want to feel the cylinder stop snap up to warn me it is time for final aim adjustment. Feeling the cylinder stop snap up makes it significantly easier to shoot bullseye slow fire and hunt double action. Staging the trigger as nay-sayers call it can be done so briefly that observers of modern timed matches do not notice it is being done. However, I have plenty of S&Ws that lock up by momentum and am well aware that is how a high percentage of them leave the factory. I suspect the original poster’s Model 19-3 is how it left the factory and meets S&W’s standards.

I am not a gunsmith, just another forum member, and I will not be offended if my comments disregarded.

I bought a 0.097-0.098” one from Numerich online, which is what I installed to really no effect. I think the power custom ones are wider, but they are shaped differently and likely require opening the hand window in the frame...

I tried both dragging a finger slightly and not dragging, but makes no difference. What is interesting is that even applying significantl drag on the cylinder still ends up with the cylinder fully locked when the hammer comes down.

Other issues that can dramatically effect carry up: if the yoke is out of alignment, if the extractor rod runout is excessive, and if the front and rear cylinder gauges are incorrect. These problems can cause drag on the cylinder, and interfere with proper carry up....similar to the way excessive dirt and shooting debris in the cylinder assembly does.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

I checked yoke alignment and it is perfect, much to my surprise. I fixed both yoke end shake and cylinder end shake using shims, which unfortunately resulted in a big barrel/cylinder gap of 0.011-0.012”, but these days S&W does not consider it excessive and with a 6” barrel may be ok. Extractor rod needs to be straightened, there is a bit of a wobble when spinning it, which may be the source of friction you are referring to...
maybe Iu should replace it? The fixture for straightening the rod is expensive...

Have you tried checking for carryup with the use of snap caps or empty cases? Sometimes the extractor pins become worn and allow the extractor to move clockwise and counter clockwise within the extractor cutout in the cylinder. Snap caps or empties tighten this up and the cylinder may then lock up earlier. Also you want to use the same when checking with a range rod. Just a suggestion if not already thought of.

Yep, snap caps used for all tests.

I don't see a problem.

Charlie

It’s not so much a problem, since the gun is functional, but with time it could become a problem, since it seems to be on the edge. I am just wondering why the timing is so late and I cannot seem to make it earlier...