Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > S&W-Smithing
o

Notices

S&W-Smithing Maintenance, Repair, and Enhancement of Smith & Wesson and Other Firearms.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-06-2018, 10:06 AM
500SNW 500SNW is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Faubush, KY
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 2,523
Liked 1,824 Times in 742 Posts
Default Forcing Cone Issue

I was just curious to hear everyone's opinions on this. While cleaning my 627, I discovered what appeared to be a burr on the edge of my forcing cone. I had a Q-tip and it would get hung up at a certain point as I was moving it in a circular fashion around the outer edge of the forcing cone. Looking closely, I saw a tiny metallic sliver which initially I thought was a burr. Long story short, I was able to remove it and I now think it was a shard of cast bullet material which had become stubbornly stuck there during my last range trip. Is it normal for tiny pieces of cast bullet material to accumulate there? No, I'm not getting lead "rings" like we hear about with out-of-time revolvers...but, then again I had only run a cylinder or two through the last time I shot it. Is this normal? Thanks in advance for your opinions.
__________________
Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

Last edited by 500SNW; 09-06-2018 at 10:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-06-2018, 11:22 AM
Protocall_Design Protocall_Design is online now
Vendor
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas City area
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 53,453
Liked 13,436 Times in 4,241 Posts
Default

If it's not out of time, the forcing cone could probably benefit from a touchup to make it just a little bit larger at the mouth.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 09-06-2018, 11:54 AM
chief38's Avatar
chief38 chief38 is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,759
Likes: 7,836
Liked 25,616 Times in 8,661 Posts
Default

Leading does accumulate in the Forcing Cone area and some Revolvers are worse than others in my experience. As Toolguy mentions, make sure your Revolver is in time! Also make sure there are no burrs however in removing any you might find, be careful as to not disturb the Barrel Cylinder Gap! Also check to see if there are rough spots just inside the FC.

In the past I have cut FC's to 11º and to be quite honest I really can not say I notice any big difference although I did not do it because I was having problems. At the time (30 years ago) I did it just because of the round count I was putting through these two Revolvers and though they would benefit from doing so. These happen to be on Colt's but they are pretty much the same.

The Lewis Lead Remover (available from Brownell's) is indispensable when shooting a Revolver! Buy some extra Bronze screens with it and if you shoot lead through a .45 you might want to also get the adapter kit for that as well. The LLR removes Lead from the Forcing Cone as well as the Charge Holes and Barrel.

You could also try different formulations of Lead bullets - some Casters make their bullets different hardnesses and to different sizes also.

Last edited by chief38; 09-06-2018 at 11:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 09-06-2018, 12:29 PM
500SNW 500SNW is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Faubush, KY
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 2,523
Liked 1,824 Times in 742 Posts
Default

Thanks for the replies so far. I really need to take it to the range again and run a significant amount of cast bullets through it. Who knows...maybe if I had fired one more shot, it would have blown the piece of lead shrapnel off of the forcing cone. This is a "performance center" revolver which I bought new and have fired less than 100 rounds through...yet, I have already had to order a new firing pin because the original became spalled at the tip. Now, I've got lemon paranoia and I'm afraid I'm going to have some other issue. I can say one things for sure, the lockup isn't anywhere near as tight as my 586.
__________________
Smith. And Wesson. And Me!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:24 PM
RMFnLA RMFnLA is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 624
Likes: 492
Liked 636 Times in 291 Posts
Default

If you had tried a magnet on the sliver you could have determined if it was steel or not.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:48 PM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 3,439
Likes: 37
Liked 5,413 Times in 1,756 Posts
Default

You got a lead flake. It happens. Check it now and again, and if it becomes a problem get a qualified gunsmith to look at it. But I'll bet it never comes to that...
__________________
Pisgah
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 09-06-2018, 03:13 PM
500SNW 500SNW is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Faubush, KY
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 2,523
Liked 1,824 Times in 742 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
You got a lead flake. It happens. Check it now and again, and if it becomes a problem get a qualified gunsmith to look at it. But I'll bet it never comes to that...
Thanks. That's exactly what it looked like....a small lead flake that had been pressed tight against the FC by high heat and pressure. Do you know what causes the lead flake to come off of the projectile?
__________________
Smith. And Wesson. And Me!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-07-2018, 02:53 AM
BLUEDOT37's Avatar
BLUEDOT37 BLUEDOT37 is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: N.E. OKLA.
Posts: 6,461
Likes: 5,859
Liked 9,272 Times in 3,480 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 500SNW View Post
While cleaning my 627, I discovered what appeared to be a burr on the edge of my forcing cone... around the outer edge of the forcing cone.
Looking closely... it was a shard of cast bullet material which had become stubbornly stuck there during my last range trip.
Because of the barrel to cylinder gap on revolvers you get hot gases, unburnt powder & bits of copper jacket/lead shavings exit there at high speed. Sometimes they get stuck there, or on the frame, but most fly off in different directions. This is normal.

And sometimes they bounce back & hit you in the face/neck. Always remember to wear eye protection designed for shooting. I used to just use my prescription glasses but after getting chips in them I now use "over the glasses" protection that cover a larger area & save damage to my glasses (& eyes).

Hope you get some more range time with your new gun.

.
__________________
Waiting for the break of day
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 09-08-2018, 08:21 AM
500SNW 500SNW is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Faubush, KY
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 2,523
Liked 1,824 Times in 742 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Because of the barrel to cylinder gap on revolvers you get hot gases, unburnt powder & bits of copper jacket/lead shavings exit there at high speed. Sometimes they get stuck there, or on the frame, but most fly off in different directions. This is normal.
Thanks for the good information. Do you know how these shavings get knocked off of the bullet? I can't see that happening if the chamber and forcing cone/bore are in perfect alignment.
__________________
Smith. And Wesson. And Me!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-08-2018, 09:47 AM
Protocall_Design Protocall_Design is online now
Vendor
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas City area
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 53,453
Liked 13,436 Times in 4,241 Posts
Default

The bullet only gets shaved if it's grazing the edge of the forcing cone. A little bit larger forcing cone is usually the cure. Can't tell if that is what's called for in this case without inspecting the gun. Might be slight misalignment of the chamber to barrel.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 09-08-2018, 11:28 AM
Marshal Kane Marshal Kane is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 232
Likes: 255
Liked 160 Times in 110 Posts
Default

I would suggest you continue to shoot your revolver, each time checking the FC for another shard of lead. It might just be a fluke and never occur again. If you do find it happening regularly, and it's where the FC starts at the edge of the barrel, it might be caused by a small burr there in which case, you could take the unfluted end of a drill bit and burnish off the burr. Whatever you do, try not to make major changes at the start. Better to work up gradually to the major changes. I like burnishing because it removes no metal and it polishes.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 09-09-2018, 01:25 AM
BLUEDOT37's Avatar
BLUEDOT37 BLUEDOT37 is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: N.E. OKLA.
Posts: 6,461
Likes: 5,859
Liked 9,272 Times in 3,480 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 500SNW View Post
Do you know how these shavings get knocked off of the bullet? I can't see that happening if the chamber and forcing cone/bore are in perfect alignment.
Perfect alignment is an illusive thing. With the hammer cocked & empty cases in your chambers do you have zero rotational play on every chamber. Usually not, but that's normal & acceptable, however this lends itself to less than perfect alignment every time you fire it. The more play it has the more it can get out of "perfect alignment".

As Toolguy mentioned, the forcing cone's internal diameter can come into play too. It's typically ~.015"-.020" larger than the bullet diameter. If it's too small that increases the likely-hood of shaving. A quick way to see if the FC diameter is in the ballpark is to use a fired (& expanded) case to see if the FC opening matches it's diameter.

Also, when firing lead bullets that don't seal well in the cylinder throats, have beveled bases, or are fired at velocities not suited to their BHN, the hot gases can eroded the bullet's base, & lube grooves, causing lead to splatter as it crosses the B-C gap, even if it's perfectly aligned.

Shoot it some more & see how it does with different ammo & don't let a little fouling cause you concern.

.
__________________
Waiting for the break of day
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 09-09-2018, 08:47 AM
500SNW 500SNW is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Faubush, KY
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 2,523
Liked 1,824 Times in 742 Posts
Default

Thanks for the good advice. I'll try those suggestions. I did notice that on this PC revolver there is a tiny bit of rotational "wiggle" in the cylinder after the hammer has been dropped but the trigger still held rearward. My garden variety 586, by comparison" does not move at all under any condition. It is rock solid and has an appropriately narrow cylinder gap. And I always believed the line about Performance Center guns being given "fine tuning."
__________________
Smith. And Wesson. And Me!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-10-2018, 11:03 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

I can't stand wiping a cleaning cloth over the back end of the barrel and leaving it full of snagged lint because of the ragged machining marks or almost cutting myself on the knife edges of the bore.

With those conditions, even a perfectly aligned barrel to cyl will shave lead at that point where the bullet is suffering maximum obturation (swelling, flaring) under the heat and pressure of firing!

I get after those rough and/or sharp edges with 400 grit paper. It's hard to do with barrel installed but a small circle piece of 400 stuck to your finger with spit and rotated in the edge of the forcing cone will do the job. Or fine valve grinding compound on a Dremel tool cotton polishing plug smeared with compound and twisted back and force with your fingers works well. (will do a fine crown on a cut barrel as well using it in the Dremel motor).

I also use compound on a toothbrush with its bristles cut as short as possible to get after burrs around the barrel end and any exposed sharp barrel threads to smooth them out.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 09-10-2018, 11:13 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member

Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 19,208
Likes: 11,815
Liked 20,511 Times in 8,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 500SNW View Post
Thanks for the good advice. I'll try those suggestions. I did notice that on this PC revolver there is a tiny bit of rotational "wiggle" in the cylinder after the hammer has been dropped but the trigger still held rearward. My garden variety 586, by comparison" does not move at all under any condition. It is rock solid and has an appropriately narrow cylinder gap. And I always believed the line about Performance Center guns being given "fine tuning."

Recognize slight rotational movement in the cyl with trigger held back is a good thing! A perfectly tight cyl in a line bored barrel and cyl when all other parts are perfect is fine.

But mass produceds gun, even from the PC are not perfect and the job of the forcing cone is designed to guide the bullet into the barrel. So w/o a little movement in the cyl, the bullet cannot do its job of aligning the cyl throat to the barrel in a non line bored revolver!
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 09-10-2018 at 11:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:18 AM
500SNW 500SNW is offline
Member
Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue Forcing Cone Issue  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Faubush, KY
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 2,523
Liked 1,824 Times in 742 Posts
Default

More good advice. Thanks Hondo. I'm headed to the range next week and will give the PC revolver a good testing with cast bullets. TBH perhaps the biggest lesson learned here is - after you buy a new gun, immediately take it out and run a couple hundred rounds through it to check for any issues. I'm the type of guy to buy a new gun and let it sit for a whole year before I even get around to firing it
__________________
Smith. And Wesson. And Me!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Possible forcing cone issue on new 686? 15mtyler S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 12 08-20-2018 10:03 AM
Smith 64 forcing cone issue jefflrrp S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 5 10-26-2016 12:44 AM
686 SSR Forcing Cone Issue badabing S&W-Smithing 12 03-15-2016 12:23 AM
Please help with forcing cone issue. Dewy12 S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 14 11-13-2015 02:14 PM
637 Forcing Cone Issue Jimmyjones S&W-Smithing 11 10-26-2013 11:22 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:22 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)