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  #1  
Old 09-17-2018, 10:12 PM
notsofast notsofast is offline
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Default Model 24 magnum conversion?

Can a model 24, 44spcl be converted to a 44mag? If it can how much is involved? And are model 29/629’s made stronger than a M24? Thanks
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:23 AM
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It can be done. Pretty much requires replacing the cylinder with a longer one to chamber the 44 magnum round, and that requires replacing or modifying (shortening) the barrel to match.

Unless you are a master gunsmith the amount it would cost to pay someone who is to do this work would far exceed the cost to just buy a M29 instead.

I'm guessing that you probably aren't a master gunsmith, because if you were you wouldn't be asking the question.

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Old 09-18-2018, 12:32 AM
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It has been said by well-placed authorities that the heat-treatment for Magnum revolvers differed from non-Magnums. Adding this to the cost and complexity of a conversion and it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

However, if you want the tapered barrel look, it would be simple to swap a model 24/624 barrel onto a model 29 with just shortening the forcing cone. Or better still, finding a 4" 629 Mountain Gun. Good luck in your decision.
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:58 AM
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1) Can you modify the m24 cyl to accept 44mag ammo?
2) Is a conversion cyl available?
3) If one would use a m29 cyl, would the barrel have to be removed and the forcing cone “lathed” down the .11” difference?
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsofast View Post
1) Can you modify the m24 cyl to accept 44mag ammo?
Yes and No. You can ream the cylinders to accept the 44 mag brass, but the cylinder will still be too short for SOME standard length ammo. The noses of the bullets would stick out of the front of the cylinder and cause it to bind on the forcing cone. If you reload you can set the bullets deeper, but this raises pressure and can be a problem if you are loading at or near top of the range.

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2) Is a conversion cyl available?
No. The cylinder window is the same size, but the magnum cylinder is longer (front to back) and the barrel is shorter by an equivalent amount. The closest thing to a "conversion" cylinder would be to buy a 44 magnum cylinder from a Model 29.

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3) If one would use a m29 cyl, would the barrel have to be removed and the forcing cone “lathed” down the .11” difference?
Yes - either that or the barrel would also need to be replaced with one from a model 29 as previously mentioned. Cutting the forcing cone off the barrel and then re-cutting a new forcing cone would be the most expensive part of the proposition. Probably more expensive than buying a replacement barrel.

If a person already had the Model 24, it would be cheaper to buy a Model 29 than it would to modify the 24. In addition to costing less there is the additional benefit of having both guns.

So the big question, is why would anyone even consider paying someone to modify a Model 24 to shoot magnum rounds? If a person has the skills and tools to do the work themselves, and could get the parts cheaply enough, it would be an interesting project. Otherwise it would be cost prohibitive.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:15 AM
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Actually trimming the barrel extension and re cutting the forcing cone is easy and does not require the barrel to be removed. Tool works like this shart goes through a guide then though barrel, cutter is screwed on. Tool is turned by hand and cylinder is checked untill you get gap. Then, the cutter is replaced with a tapered forcing cone cutter and after forcing cone is cut, the cutter is replaced with a brass lap piece and you coat that with valve grinding compound to polish the forcing cone. Doesn't take an hour with the right tool.

I also believe that at this point in time the heat treat for all the frames is the same. The difference is optimum HT for 4140 is the addition of an normilization cycle prior to hardening and tempering. As lots of frames are stuck int he oven at once and it is a controlled oven why would the skip the step and add to the tracking problem as frames pass through the machining phases. Same heat treatment is used for B16 studs to achieve maximum yield strength with 4140 used in industry and the make those by the ton. The expense of B16 studs is slightly higher than B7 studs which are the same 4140 alloy, but with B7 the normalization cycle is skipped. But, with studs we are talking tons upon tons of them. One refinery, during a shutdown, easily goes through more tons of 4140 in studs than S&W goes through in an entire year of production.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
It has been said by well-placed authorities that the heat-treatment for Magnum revolvers differed from non-Magnums. Adding this to the cost and complexity of a conversion and it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

However, if you want the tapered barrel look, it would be simple to swap a model 24/624 barrel onto a model 29 with just shortening the forcing cone. Or better still, finding a 4" 629 Mountain Gun. Good luck in your decision.
According to S&W, they are all the same after WWII. I've called and asked.

I struggle to find the advantage of running two different heat treatment processes. Seems like a great way to cause liability when they build a magnum on the wrong frame.

I would agree to go the MG route unless OP wants a 6" tapered BBL .44 Mag. Hanejector had a one of one 6" 29 MG and auctioned it on GB...only pulled $1100 if I recall correctly.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:28 PM
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[Quote]

I would agree to go the MG route unless OP wants a....

....5 1/2” tapered barrel, partridge sight, magnum capable model 24. The gun’s not close to collector quality so to me it’s not heresy. And something about making one appeals to me.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:40 PM
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Has anyone ever wondered why so many guys with magnums want to shoot reduced loads and guys with standard calibers want to shoot magnum loads?
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsofast View Post
Can a model 24, 44spcl be converted to a 44mag? If it can how much is involved? And are model 29/629’s made stronger than a M24? Thanks
Are you talking about a Model 24 (no dash) or a Model 24 - ?

IIRC there were some "classic" MIM-IL Model 24's made a few years ago that actually had .44 magnum cylinders to save production costs.

Can you be more specific on the model you have or are looking at ?

Usually easier to just sell the gun then buy the one in the caliber you desire rather than convert.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:03 AM
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^^^Yes. There are plenty of guns available in the caliber of your choice. Why try to make one that doesn't quite fit the mold?
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsofast View Post
3) If one would use a m29 cyl, would the barrel have to be removed and the forcing cone “lathed” down the .11” difference?
Just FYI:

With a drill you can drill and with a mill you can mill.
But with a vehicle, you don't vehicle, you drive it.

Work done on a lathe is not "lathed".

The circumference of the work piece is TURNED DOWN.
The end of the work piece is FACED OFF.

The barrel throat therefore would need to be faced off.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:10 AM
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The "barrel extension" would need to be faced off, then the forcing cone re cut or reamed. The barrel extension is the piece of barrel that protrudes through the frame into the frame window, the forcing cone is the tapered entrance into the bore.

I did barrel extension adjustments in a lathe before I got the tooling from Brownells. The major pain is getting it centered in a 4 jaw chuck and not marring it. I used thin pieces of copper on the jaws. Then would take the frame, with the cylinder on the yoke, but no ejector rod and turn it on, but you off course would have a hard time torquing it up to time in a lathe so some math was necessary. At 180 degrees out you will gain a tiny bit less than 0.014 with the 36 to the inch threads, So if your aiming for .004-.005 you sho0 for a 0.018-9. Kind of a pain in a lathe. Much easier with cutter system I described.

I also did a 38 barrel to take a model 19 cylinder and simply used a file. There the adjustment is pretty small. Safed a file on its sides, then stuck a thin piece of stainless between the barrel extension and the frame. with Barrel vertical in padded vice went to work. If you hold the file flat to the work and move it flat to the work it will cut flat and true. Worked fine. Latter I replaced the 38 barrel with a 357 barrel simply for the markings. That gun has been my experimental learning tool for a long time. A model 10-2. Now has adjustable sights, a recessed model 19 cylinder, round butted and a 2 1/2" 19 barrel. Used a regular 4" ejector rod, just cut it and center pin down and knurled the tip of the ejector rod. Shoots fine. Truely has ZERO collect ability. LOL

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Old 09-19-2018, 06:31 AM
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PS, if you use a recessed model 29 cylinder your also going to have to adjust the frame lug that the rear face of the cylinder rides on when open, appox .060 for the recesses. If a non recesses cylinder it will work.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:22 AM
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More work and expense than it's worth, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:46 PM
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Probably is more time and money than it’s worth but something about it has intrigued me. I now have the info on what tools I’ll need, the parts, and the mistakes to avoid. Gonna say there’s a better chance of me doing it than not.
Tried posting pics last night, no workie, hope that’s not a bad omen
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:07 PM
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Default WHY?

There are so many 44 magnums out there and so few M24 44 specials.
Why take one more M24 out of circulation?
Worse yet, why spend money to do this?
Why not just sell the M24 or trade it for what you want?

If you find a buyer who wants a nice 44 Special (and there's lots of such guys) you'll probably be able to sell the M24 for more than the cost of the gun you want.

Sorry for being blunt, it's not anything personal, but it seems ridiculous to even consider this sort of conversion.

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Old 09-19-2018, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
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^^^Yes. There are plenty of guns available in the caliber of your choice. Why try to make one that doesn't quite fit the mold?
The 44 Special and 44 Magnum are the same caliber.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
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There are so many 44 magnums out there and so few M24 44 specials.
Why take one more M24 out of circulation?
Worse yet, why spend money to do this?
Why not just sell the M24 or trade it for what you want?

If you find a buyer who wants a nice 44 Special (and there's lots of such guys) you'll probably be able to sell the M24 for more than the cost of the gun you want.

Sorry for being blunt, it's not anything personal, but it seems ridiculous to even consider this sort of conversion.

Jim
My model 24 is not being taken out of circulation as it’s already spoken for. When finished it will be more interesting than ridiculous, that being said yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not a very common project that certainly would raise eyebrows, I do get it. You won’t hurt my feelings by being blunt, no worries there, and about it being ridiculous, well that never crossed my mind. And for resale, my time is mine and any $$$’s spent I can afford.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:46 PM
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It sounds like a fun but expensive project, that will give you something that is both unique and personal.

But, it would be pure irony if you wound up shooting reduced loads through it more often than not.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
The two most sensible answers do not actually answer notsofast's questions. The first is trade his Model 24 for a .44 Magnum. That's been well covered. The second is reload. In that Model 24 .44 Specials can launch 240 grain bullets within a couple hundred fps of factory .44 Magnum cartridges. That's certainly plenty for deer. They produce all the recoil I want. Wimps like me do not enjoy firing standard .44 Magnum cartridges in Mountain Guns that have essentially the same recoil as his converted Model 24 would.

If he's never going to reload and local laws make trading guns not feasible then we look at his original questions. A longer cylinder would not be needed to fire industry standard .44 Magnum factory cartridges. The SAAMI's .44 Special maximum cartridge over all length is 0.005" longer than .44 Magnum. The Model 24's cylinder's chambers could be reamed with a .44 Magnum reamer. That would avoid buying a cylinder. It would avoid working on his yoke for end shake, his barrel for flash gap and his ratchet for carry up or timing. Additionally it would avoid having a cylinder with a different shade of blue than the rest of the revolver. Wouldn't that be the least expensive way to do what he wants?
I don’t reload, I would be using commonly sold rounds, Remington, Winchester, Fioochi, in both magnum and special. I do not yet know what SAAMI means and/or its relevance for my project, any explanation would be helpful for me. And yes reaming a cylinder would be preferable to barrel shortening, forcing cone re-cutting and of course buying a mag cylinder. The gun is a -6
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:45 PM
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The only way to have a "convertible" 44 Spec/44Mag would be to start with the Mod 29 and have a 44 Special cylinder on the Mag length made up. A pretty expensive proposition. Cost wise, buy both guns and pocket the change.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:51 PM
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SAAMI is the initials of the Small Arms And Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, SAAMI. They set the cartridge and chamber dimensions and cartridge pressures that all large U.S. manufacturers voluntarily adhere to. This way all the large manufacturers' firearms can safely fire all the large ammunition manufacturer's cartridges.

Except for specialty cartridges from small boutique ammunition manufacturers the .44 Magnum cylinders' longer length only benefits reloaders. The extra length allows us to use bullet molds with longer noses, to load heavier bullets, and to seat bullets out to increase the volume of the powder space.

I used SAAMI because most members expect statements to be backed up by a respected source.

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Old 09-19-2018, 09:18 PM
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notsofast,

As K22fan posted, SAAMI also sets standard pressure for cartridges:

44 Spl is rated at 15,500 PSI (pounds per square inch) and guns manufactured in 44 spl are designed to safely withstand that pressure.

44 Mag is 36,000 PSI and therefore guns manufactured in 44 Mag are designed to safely withstand that pressure.

You're prosposing to convert to and shoot 44 Mag in a gun designed for 44 spl pressure. That we know for sure. What we don't know for sure, is what the Model 24 is heat treated for beyond 44 spl.

However, some years ago some Model 624s 44 spl with 3" barrels left the factory with cyls that had chambers long enough to accept 44 Mag cartridges. S&W spent an awful lot of money on a recall to get those guns back and correct the problem.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:34 PM
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When you're finished you could buy a Porsche and rebuild a VW using the Porsche parts.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:02 PM
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When you're finished you could buy a Porsche and rebuild a VW using the Porsche parts.
Gotta love it
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:51 PM
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The 24-6 probably has a longer cylinder than the earlier 24s. You should try a fired .44Mag case to see if it will fit.
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:33 PM
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The 24-6 probably has a longer cylinder than the earlier 24s. You should try a fired .44Mag case to see if it will fit.
Will do, thanks
And thanks to all for very good info
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:23 PM
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"According to S&W, they are all the same after WWII. I've called and asked."

That doesn't hold water right off the bat. When the .44 Magnum was developed in the 1950s, S&W used different heat treating. Plus, depending on who you talk to, factory employees are notorious for giving bad information.

I have a M544, a 5" .44-40. I asked Roy Jinks, the historian and former head of the handgun production, if it was safe to fit a .44 Magnum cylinder. Mr Jinks said no, the heat treatment was different on the non magnum frames.
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:50 PM
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I can't see converting a .44 spl to a mag. A model 24 is a sturdy frame which means it can shoot some respectable loads which will do much of what a mag can. A .44 spl at 1100 fps is quite respectable

If you don't reload sell the model 24, there are people out there that wish they had one. Then buy a model 29 and you'll be further ahead.

I'm a fan of both the spl and mag but prefer the spl now that I'm older. To be honest I own 3 .44 magnum S&W revolvers, not one has ever seen a mag load. For my shooting the atomic loads just aren't needed.
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
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"According to S&W, they are all the same after WWII. I've called and asked."

That doesn't hold water right off the bat. When the .44 Magnum was developed in the 1950s, S&W used different heat treating. Plus, depending on who you talk to, factory employees are notorious for giving bad information.

I have a M544, a 5" .44-40. I asked Roy Jinks, the historian and former head of the handgun production, if it was safe to fit a .44 Magnum cylinder. Mr Jinks said no, the heat treatment was different on the non magnum frames.
True on all counts.

For example:

• Heat treatment was eliminated by order Oct. 12, 1945 for cylinders on the & .32 ‘I’ frames, K22, K32 & K38, and the 44 Spl & 45 N frames: S&W 1857 – 1945. And the .357 continued to have heat treatment as well as all subsequent magnum cartridge models.

Who knows what changes S&W has undertaken in the subsequent 73 years. Not only will we not get specific information from their CS people that answer the phone, but those who do know the specifics are extremely unlikely permitted to divulge those trade secrets.

So we are left with only two definitively conclusive alternatives:

1. Have the revolvers privately and expensively lab tested for confirmation of strength,

2. or follow S&W's directions supplied with every gun; use only the specified ammunition. Which does not include shooting 44 mag in a 44 special revolver.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:20 AM
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It is possible to reload the .44 Special case to near-.44 Magnum performance levels. In fact that is exactly what Elmer Keith did during the period leading up to the production of the .44 Magnum (using 2400 powder). You can say much the same about loading a .38 Special case to near-.357 Magnum performance levels. So if you reload and simply have to have more power than the standard .44 Special loads provide (I can't say why), it is easily obtained in the .44 Special case without doing anything to the gun. Metallurgically, I can't say if that is safe or not for your Model 24. Personally, I am one of those who shoots normal .44 Special-level handloads in my .44 Magnum revolvers.

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Old 09-23-2018, 07:41 PM
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Us ol gun cranks do all sorts of things........





** I once owned an early 6 1/2" 44 Spl. (box marked 24-3)
frame was stamped 29-3 packin a 44 special barrel & cylinder.


.
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:56 PM
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Us ol gun cranks do all sorts of things........





** I once owned an early 6 1/2" 44 Spl. (box marked 24-3)
frame was stamped 29-3 packin a 44 special barrel & cylinder.


.
Ah hah! A 44 Mag Military! But with a target barrel.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:44 AM
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Ah hah! A 44 Mag Military! But with a target barrel.
Jim,
Check out the frame to barrel rib fit....No cleavage.





.
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Old 09-24-2018, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
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Can a model 24, 44spcl be converted to a 44mag? If it can how much is involved? Thanks
A model 29-3 cylinder will work best....
Barrel butt will need to be adjusted for gap and the lead in the forcing cone re-cut.

As far as heat treatment goes...
It'll take quite a few magnum round to stretch the frame out of spec as to head space and barrel/cyl. gap.

We all know the 44 mag factory ammo of today is not the 44 magnum ammunition of the 50's.

What with all that said, I'd load my own 44 Special with the old Keith load,
or the Buffalo Bore Heavy 44 Spl loading and just roll with that as is.

Not a big deal.

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Old 09-24-2018, 07:19 PM
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Jim,
Check out the frame to barrel rib fit....No cleavage.





.
That's a beautiful fit. Did you mill down the barrel rib just a bit?
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:28 PM
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Just FYI:

With a drill you can drill and with a mill you can mill.
But with a vehicle, you don't vehicle, you drive it.

Work done on a lath is not "lathed".

The circumference of the work piece is TURNED DOWN.
The end of the work piece is FACED OFF.

The barrel throat therefore would need to be faced off.
A piece of lath and a lathe are not the same thing. FYI
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
Us ol gun cranks do all sorts of things........





** I once owned an early 6 1/2" 44 Spl. (box marked 24-3)
frame was stamped 29-3 packin a 44 special barrel & cylinder.


.
I very much like that!!!
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:46 PM
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A piece of lath and a lathe are not the same thing. FYI
Why do I continue to rely on spellcheck???

Thx,
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