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Old 10-07-2018, 09:00 AM
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Is it possible and practical to get a spare model 28 cylinder, and have it converted to 357/44 Bain and Davis? I presume an N frame is of sufficient strength?
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:51 AM
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The cylinder would have to be machined and fitted to the frame, so it's possible. However, foggy memory suggests that practical may be another story. The N frame was the frame used for the conversions.

Case forming would be interesting, at minimum. I do recall a similar concept that used a plastic insert/sleeve that went over and supported the shoulder. If that's used on the B&D, one would have to wonder where you'd get the sleeves. [Maybe the sleeves were used in the experimental setup to avoid the cartridge setback problems that plagued the .22 Jet and were determined to be unnecessary? ]
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:38 AM
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The cylinder would have to be machined and fitted to the frame, so it's possible. However, foggy memory suggests that practical may be another story. The N frame was the frame used for the conversions.

Case forming would be interesting, at minimum. I do recall a similar concept that used a plastic insert/sleeve that went over and supported the shoulder. If that's used on the B&D, one would have to wonder where you'd get the sleeves. [Maybe the sleeves were used in the experimental setup to avoid the cartridge setback problems that plagued the .22 Jet and were determined to be unnecessary? ]
357/44 B&D cases are formed from 44 mag brass I believe. RCBS and another company make the dies to reform, and load. Besides the cylinder, and other minor parts to make a complete assembly, I see no barrel work that would or should be needed. I wonder about the cost to do this?
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:50 AM
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How much experience do you have in case forming? It's not necessarily run a case into a die, get a finished case. Especially in a neck down operation. Not every attempt is successful.
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:11 AM
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I gave some thought to the 357/44 B&D a couple of years back. I seem to recall comparing some of the reloading data I found on the B&D to a standard .357 and deciding that there wasn't enough of a difference to make it worth while. Maybe the info I got was on the conservative side. Not sure. Too bad the cylinders aren't long enough to convert to .357 Maximum.
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Old 10-07-2018, 02:01 PM
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It's simple, a model 27 cylinder of the same period is identical to the Model 28 except for finish. Yes, some fitting would be required, but nothing more than any other cylinder swap. It is a simple re-chamber.

What's all the BS about a "special cylinder" and chamber sleeves???????

The big question is WHY? As 1sailor mentioned there isn't enough difference from .357 Magnum to make any difference. And it isn't just case forming, that's simple. It is the issues arising from a bottle-necked cartridge in a revolver, it just doesn't work! The only bottle-necked cartridges that have ever had any success in revolvers are the Winchester .32-20, 38-40 and .44-40, and they are virtually bottle-necked "in name only". And, yes, I am fully familiar with the .22 Jet and shortened Hornet conversions.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:04 PM
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I came across a converted cylinder along with some 357 B&D loaded ammo, some empty cases, an RCBS loading die and reloading data. I bought the package and simply put the B&D cylinder in a 6" Model 28. It worked fine. IIRC the original concept by Bain and Davis was to load heavy .357 bullets to higher speeds for silhouetting. However, others also used the cartridge to load 125 gr. JHPs to high velocities. I eventually lost interest in this and sold my whole kit to a forum member/engineer who wanted to play with it. Never heard from him after.

The cutter to ream/cut the cylinder would be expensive because it would be a custom-one-off job. You could post want-to-buy ads and possibly find one.

Good Luck.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:23 PM
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ReamerRentals.com has the 357 B&D reamer available for $39.

The plastic sleeve thing was for a completely different concept. That one involved a 44 mag cylinder fit to a 357. The sleeve filled the chamber space. G&A magazine did a cover story back in 70s or early 80s.

When done right, the 357 B&D is actually quite good, especially if done with a matching die set. Everything is to close tolerance and the long range accuracy is really good!
One big advantage over the 357 maximum, is you get it in a very reasonable sized package that's easier to carry and shoot off hand than a huge Ruger SRM or Dan Wesson.

As another person posted, it's at it's best with heavier bullets.

I hope you give it a try!

Jim

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Old 10-07-2018, 04:24 PM
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My cylinder on my model 28-2 with an S prefix had finish that was very worn from being carried. Yet the barrel and frame had minimum carry wear to the finish. I found a cylinder on Ebay that was from a 28-2 that looked absolutely perfect. It was not real cheap but I went ahead and bought it anyhow. Putting it onto my gun made the gun look almost new again and the whole point of my post is to say it required no fitting whatsoever. Plug and play perfect so it is possible to get lucky on the fitting department. The Bain/Davis modification I have no idea as to how to help on that. Good luck
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:25 PM
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I think I have been talked out of the thought never formed cases beyond fire forming. Have done plenty of rifle, pistol, and shotgun reloading. Thanks for the info
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:38 PM
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As a follow up, the sleeve thing is for the "357 Bobcat".
See G&A March 1979.

There's lots of included reference material to the 357 B&D. A good read for the curious!

Jim
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:40 PM
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Default 357 bobcat vs Bain & Davis

Also, in regard to ballistics, here's the load data for the 357 Bobcat, which is quite a bit in line with the Bain & Davis.

I hope this helps others.

Jim
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:14 PM
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Several years ago a guy moved here from California and I bought his whole Bain and Davis set up that he had used for silhouette shooting out there. A contender, dies, brass and about a life time supply of 160 gr. flat nosed silhouette bullets. I have since passed it on to anther shooter but that was a fun gun to play around with. Very accurate and seems like I was getting 1,600 f.p.s. plus out of the loads. Forming the brass was very easy. I just lubed the .44 cases and ran them through the sizing die and then trimmed them for length. I believe he told me that he had to have the dies special made from Hornady when he got them.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:44 PM
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I'll be the 3rd or 4th guy with hands-on experience to tell you that YES, converting .44 Magnum cases to .357-44 B&D is absolutely just a simple as lubing them well, going slow, and literally doing nothing more whatsoever then running them in to a .357 B&D sizing die.

The same die that you use to re-size your fired .357 B&D brass after you shoot it is the same die that you'll use to make .357 B&D brass from either new .44 Mag brass or used .44 Mag brass.

It's one of the easiest "brass conversions" you can do. I've done it on brand new Starline .44 Mag and a laundry list of headstamps with used .44 Mag brass.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:50 PM
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The Bain & Davis uses a formed 44Mag case necked down to 357 cal as it is and the guns 357cylinder is rechambered for that case.
The 357 Bobcat (357-44 Bobcat) uses the 44Mag case necked down to 357cal. But then a plastic sleeve was placed over the necked down portion of the case (only).
That sleeve brought the case itself back up to 44Mag dimensions.
The cylinder of the gun was rechambered from 357 to 44Mag for the conversion.
The bbl of course was left as orig 357cal.

That plastic sleeve over the neck of the case was said to totally elliminate the possibility of the bottle necked case to set-back against the breech face of the revolver. A problem sometimes faced with other revolver conversions using bottle necked cases and when pushing the pressures in order to gain velocity.

The sleeves were reusable, but generally only available from a couple sources. Some reloaders probably made their own I'm guessing. Talk about tinkering...

The designer of the Bobcat wildcat said the best way to place the sleeve on the case each time (it had to be removed for reloading the cases) was to wipe the case neck clean with a solvent and then seat it back onto the case. The sleeve would grab and hold w/o falling off but yet be able to be removed for the reloading process again.

Case forming was pretty straight forward w/o any wild forming steps to go thru.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:55 PM
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A buddy had a .357 B&D back in the late 70's, a rough looking 8 3/8" Model 27 the gun had been allowed to rust through carelessness (not by him) he acquired it in a parkerized finish.

He used it for silhouette shooting with heavy bullets and did very well with it.
He passed away some years ago and all his guns were sold off, not sure where it went.
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Old 10-07-2018, 08:42 PM
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I've seen a model 27 B&D on GB off and on for the last year or so, but at a higher price than I would pay for it. IIRC it also included a regular 357 Mag cylinder too.
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:32 PM
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The 357 Bobcat (357-44 Bobcat) uses the 44Mag case necked down to 357cal. But then a plastic sleeve was placed over the necked down portion of the case (only).
That sleeve brought the case itself back up to 44Mag dimensions.
The cylinder of the gun was rechambered from 357 to 44Mag for the conversion.
The bbl of course was left as orig 357cal.
I'd be afraid to even own something like that. What if someone put a regular 44 mag round in it? Unless I missed or misunderstood something, this sounds like a serious accident waiting to happen.

The B&D sounds interesting. The Bobcat - not so much.

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Old 10-07-2018, 09:56 PM
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I'd be afraid to even own something like that. What if someone put a regular 44 mag round in it? Unless I missed or misunderstood something, this sounds like a serious accident waiting to happen.

The B&D sounds interesting. The Bobcat - not so much.
I do not think what you are worried about would be possible. I cannot see how the 44 would chamber in a bottleneck charge hole
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:00 PM
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I do not think what you are worried about would be possible. I cannot see how the 44 would chamber in a bottleneck charge hole
The way I read the description it uses a 44 mag cylinder with sleeves on the bottle-necked section of the case and the 357 bullet.

That is what makes it different than the B&D if I'm correctly understanding what silentflyer described...
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:01 PM
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ReamerRentals.com has the 357 B&D reamer available for $39.

The plastic sleeve thing was for a completely different concept. That one involved a 44 mag cylinder fit to a 357. The sleeve filled the chamber space. G&A magazine did a cover story back in 70s or early 80s.

When done right, the 357 B&D is actually quite good, especially if done with a matching die set. Everything is to close tolerance and the long range accuracy is really good!
One big advantage over the 357 maximum, is you get it in a very reasonable sized package that's easier to carry and shoot off hand than a huge Ruger SRM or Dan Wesson.

As another person posted, it's at it's best with heavier bullets.

I hope you give it a try!

Jim
I am thinking about it. I would have the work professionally done pf course. I need to check into that and the cost. Right now this is a " I wonder if" type thing. I have 3 very fine 28's. I am not sure I would do it with one of them
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:35 PM
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Pete, if you decide to do this, find you another model 28 or model 27 cylinder to do the mods to and leave the original cylinder alone. That way if you don't like the way it turns out you still have the original cylinder ready to put back in the gun.
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Old 10-08-2018, 05:02 AM
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Pete, if you decide to do this, find you another model 28 or model 27 cylinder to do the mods to and leave the original cylinder alone. That way if you don't like the way it turns out you still have the original cylinder ready to put back in the gun.
Oh I would do that for sure. I have 2 1968 4", and a 1970 6", all fine examples. I would never mess them up
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:46 AM
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I do not think what you are worried about would be possible. I cannot see how the 44 would chamber in a bottleneck charge hole

In the 357 Bobcat , the cylinder in that conversion is chambered out to a full 44Magnum dimension. Then the small plastic sleeves are placed onto the individual bottlenecked 357-44Mag necked down cases to make them take up the space of that 44Magnum chamber.
The bbl is 357cal of course.

The 357 Bobcat will accept a 44Mag/44Spl round in the cyl as it is,,and you have a 357cal bbl on the gun in front of it.
No one doing a conversion to the caliber necessarily follows up with a caliber designation change on the bbl or frame.
Got to pay attention..

The Bain & Davis version has the chamber cut to the bottleneck dimension of the reformed case. So a 44Mag or 44Sp case will not fit into the B&D chamber.

The idea of using the plastic sleeve on each cartridge in the Bobcat version was to avoid them setting back and jamming the action up.

>
I just stick with a .357Magnum,,or a 44spcl myself and the problems end right there. But for those who have the need for speed,,this was one way to that end.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:12 AM
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I have a few model 28s and have been thinking of making a Bain and Davis. I would use a spare cylinder. They are not hard to come by and usually not that hard to fit to the gun. This would be a case of fit to the gun. I would rent the reamer. Do I need one? No, but whats need got to do with it, it is interesting. Hey, my 22 Jet works. What I would really like to try is a shortened bottle neck case made form a 30-30. Kind of a short 357 Herret. But a blank N frame cylinder is not going to be easy to come up with. I have been playing with the idea of making one. Lot of precise work. I could use an stock star. Start with Heat treated 4140 round stock and

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Old 10-08-2018, 01:42 PM
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I have a few model 28s and have been thinking of making a Bain and Davis. I would use a spare cylinder. They are not hard to come by and usually not that hard to fir to the gun. This would be a case of fit to the gun. I would rent the reamer. do I need one, no, but whats need got to do with it it is interesting. Hey my 22 Jet works. Whzt I would really like to try is a shortened bottle neck case made form a 30-30. Kind of a short 357 Herret. But a blank N frame cylinder is not going to be easy to come up with. I have been playing with the idea of making one. Lot of precise work. I could use an stork star. Startt with Heat treated 4140 round stock and
I do not have the skill or tooling to do that type of work
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:48 PM
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I have a few model 28s and have been thinking of making a Bain and Davis. I would use a spare cylinder. They are not hard to come by and usually not that hard to fit to the gun. This would be a case of fit to the gun. I would rent the reamer. Do I need one? No, but whats need got to do with it, it is interesting. Hey, my 22 Jet works. What I would really like to try is a shortened bottle neck case made form a 30-30. Kind of a short 357 Herret. But a blank N frame cylinder is not going to be easy to come up with. I have been playing with the idea of making one. Lot of precise work. I could use an stock star. Start with Heat treated 4140 round stock and



Dang and double dang........Steel ya got me to thinkin.

And that means spending money....

That 30-30 case shortened up with a .357 bullet topping it off.

I's got an old Super Blackhawk around here sumwheres....

Dig around in the barrel bin for a long 357 barrel.



Pull out some 4140 round stock and cobble up a cylinder the length of the old 357 Maxinum....

Maybe re-barrel a '94 to accommodate this here wildcat.

This'ns gonna be fun.

Thanks for starting this thread Narragansett






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Old 10-09-2018, 06:51 AM
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You could do the 357 0n a 30-30 case. Like a short 357 Herret. The Longest possible cylinder would of course be best. I kind of want to do something using a .308 bullet. Except for the odd 30 carbine Ruger you never see a 30 cal. hand gun with any power.

Here is what I am thinking so far. Turn the stock to N cylinder OD. Drill and ream the center out of it. Turn an old N frame cylinder down and "harvest" the center piece that aligns the star and the back of the yoke rides against and shrink fit that into the new cylinder. Save broaching in the little tooth that keeps the ejector from turning when ejecting. Then I could fit an spare 357 star to new piece. Drill and ream pilot chambers on my mill using index able rotary table to hit every 60 degrees. Make a dummy barrel and a alignment tool. Install cylinder and dummy barrel in a frame. Then using dummy barrel and alignment tool align each chamber pilot hole and Use a modified cylinder stop to mark each chamber spot for its notch. Plus, I would set my rotary table up so its jaws were horizontal and use a keyway cutter to make the stop notches every 60 degrees using chambers and marks I made to cut slots using a dial indicator to check depth by how much I move table while cutting. Ream to wildcat chamber using custom reamer which you can order made up from Clymers.

I would use 4140 that is already heat treated to yield strength. It is still very machinable after HT and then no worries about distortion after HT. You can order it online, but, industrial B16 stud material is the same alloy and HT and next time I am in a refinery I will just scrounge some 1 1/2 B16 studs. I am sure this will test my patience and abilities.

So many projects, so little time. Well there is time, but once you take away honey does, the odd actual job, now and again, hunting, fishing, camping, napping and stuff its hard to do everything a guy would like to do. At 67 it bugs me that I probably only got another 20 to 30 years to get it all done. Right now I have an XP100 with the barrel removed so I can cut down and install a spare Mohawk 600 6mm barrel on it. It was a 7mm BR. But, I have enough calibers and already reload for my 6mm rifles. I bet this one will wake up everyone on the firing line.

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Old 10-09-2018, 02:23 PM
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I made the only 44 AutoMag revolver that I know of. Made the brass out of .308 rifle and modified .45 Auto moon clips to hold the brass. It works well, but the brass was a bear to make. That was around 30 years ago. Now you can buy the brass from Starline.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:24 PM
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Tell us more. Was this made out of a model 29? I take it you had to turn the case mouths to accept a .429 bullet.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:11 PM
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drgbike drgbike is offline
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I have both a banshee and a 357x44. The banshee case is the same as a B&D but uses a plastic collar to make it one diameter. There is a ledge of about 3/16 of 357 diameter at the end of the chamber. Mine will not chamber a 44 mag. case completely, leaving about 2 rim thickness sticking out you might get a flush wadcutter to go. The B&D is tapered to 357 at the end of the cylinder so a 44 mag will not chamber. I have to remember how to post pictures again and I will post pics of both. Both cylinders are standard 27 or 28 length.
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