Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

S&W-Smithing Maintenance, Repair, and Enhancement of Smith & Wesson and Other Firearms.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:43 PM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 6,470
Liked 5,259 Times in 1,694 Posts
Default Push Off on pre M18 Help

I just received a 1953 Pre M18, that I was going to try to clean up and rescue. It was shipped from another location to me.

Upon receipt, I went through the usual checkpoints, and when I got to the push off test, I would say about 4 to 5 pounds of thumb pressure will cause the hammer to fall forward.

My question is, is the engagement too light? Is there an acceptable push off pressure level? Knowing the condition, I could deal with it from a safety standpoint, but I would not dare sell it.

In general, I consider the gun unsafe.

What to do??

The seller will take it back

Thank you
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead, friend
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #2  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:55 PM
armorer951's Avatar
armorer951 armorer951 is online now
Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Evansville, Indiana USA
Posts: 4,408
Likes: 202
Liked 5,507 Times in 2,079 Posts
Default

Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched. Check these points under magnification.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.

The actual SA pull weight is a good indicator of whether or not there is a problem. If the pull weight is below 2 3/4 - 3 pounds, then there may be an issue with the integrity of the parts. Remember, don't cyle the action or try to manipulate things under spring pressure with the sideplate off.
__________________
Ret LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Last edited by armorer951; 01-29-2020 at 03:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:58 PM
Old_Cop Old_Cop is online now
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Crawford County PA
Posts: 1,838
Likes: 2,082
Liked 3,094 Times in 1,158 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.
There's your answer.
__________________
Made it, Ma! Top of the world!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:04 PM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 6,470
Liked 5,259 Times in 1,694 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.
Thank you Carter, but in all honesty, I subscribe to the Dirty Harry theory that " A Man Has to Know His Limitations" and mine would be messing with the internals of the gun. I shoot them well, but I am not comfortable working on the internals. My initial thought is to return the gun
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead, friend
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:10 PM
armorer951's Avatar
armorer951 armorer951 is online now
Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Evansville, Indiana USA
Posts: 4,408
Likes: 202
Liked 5,507 Times in 2,079 Posts
Default

Suit yourself. If pushoff is indeed the issue, it's a simple fix. There's another Dirty Harry theory, "If I can do it, anybody can do it."

And, if the trigger holds 3 pounds SA on a pull gauge, you're off the hook.

Perhaps someone locally could recommend a gunsmith you could take it to for an evaluation??
__________________
Ret LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:15 PM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 6,470
Liked 5,259 Times in 1,694 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Suit yourself. If pushoff is indeed the issue, it's a simple fix. There's another Dirty Harry theory, "If I can do it, anybody can do it."

And, if the trigger holds 3 pounds SA on a pull gauge, you're off the hook.

Perhaps someone locally could recommend a gunsmith you could take it to for an evaluation??
Thank you Carter. This is something I bought in fair shape that I was just going to clean up and try to make a decent shooter out of. The value is not there to put any money into it
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead, friend
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:47 PM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 6,470
Liked 5,259 Times in 1,694 Posts
Default

I pulled the slide plate, and I believe it looks pretty worn. I do not have a pull gauge, but the SA pull weight is much lighter than anything I own. My somewhat educated finger would say 1.5 pounds max. It's light!
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead, friend
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:49 PM
Patrick L Patrick L is offline
Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 474
Likes: 5
Liked 784 Times in 197 Posts
Default

I was under the assumption that you could VERY LIGHTLY try to point up the point on the trigger where it engages the SA notch (like 2-3 strokes on a hard stone, and pray) but that you should NEVER touch the SA notch on the hammer. This was due to the case hardening if I recall correctly. The theory was you would get into the softer inner metal, resulting in a soft on soft engagement surface which would of course wear quickly.

I am certainly not a gunsmith though, so please correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 01-29-2020, 04:02 PM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 6,470
Liked 5,259 Times in 1,694 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
I was under the assumption that you could VERY LIGHTLY try to point up the point on the trigger where it engages the SA notch (like 2-3 strokes on a hard stone, and pray) but that you should NEVER touch the SA notch on the hammer. This was due to the case hardening if I recall correctly. The theory was you would get into the softer inner metal, resulting in a soft on soft engagement surface which would of course wear quickly.

I am certainly not a gunsmith though, so please correct me if I'm wrong about that.
I think that is true of many engagement parts. The hardening only runs so deep
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead, friend
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-29-2020, 04:29 PM
ken158 ken158 is online now
Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 833
Liked 2,400 Times in 1,088 Posts
Default

As noted, 951 have you the answer but also be sure the strain screw is tight and rebound spring has not been altered. An easy fix regardless but the honing angle has to be perfect. Understandable if you don’t feel confident with internal works. Maybe an armorer in your area will see this and offer a fix - I would but nowhere close to your location.
__________________
S&W factory revolver armorer
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 01-29-2020, 04:41 PM
andy52's Avatar
andy52 andy52 is online now
US Veteran
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,110
Likes: 2,843
Liked 4,519 Times in 1,309 Posts
Default

I bought a 686 no dash a few months ago that was probably much worse then what you describe. Just the lightest touch on the cocked hammer would release it.
armorer951 sent me a short video and photos of the procedure to reshape the trigger, it work fine and the gun is now safe to use.
Mine was some bubba's attempt to lighten the trigger that went very badly.

Last edited by andy52; 01-29-2020 at 04:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:37 PM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 6,470
Liked 5,259 Times in 1,694 Posts
Default

Thanks all, but the gun is on its' way back to the seller. I believe there were other issues with it also. The front of the cylinder scrapes the forcing cone. I did not get my gauges out, but you cannot see any gap, let alone .004-5. If this piece was in better shape, I would have had more interest in the restoration of it
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead, friend
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 02-02-2020, 07:48 PM
Nick B Nick B is offline
US Veteran
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: S.W. Fl.
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 231
Liked 612 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched. Check these points under magnification.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.

The actual SA pull weight is a good indicator of whether or not there is a problem. If the pull weight is below 2 3/4 - 3 pounds, then there may be an issue with the integrity of the parts. Remember, don't cyle the action or try to manipulate things under spring pressure with the sideplate off.
Could you please send me those instructions ? I have a 625-3 that a big name guild member gunsmith did an action job on it and now the thing is just too dangerous to shoot other than double action. Single action pull is probably 1 to 1.5 pounds .
Thanks in advance.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 02-02-2020, 08:44 PM
armorer951's Avatar
armorer951 armorer951 is online now
Member
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Evansville, Indiana USA
Posts: 4,408
Likes: 202
Liked 5,507 Times in 2,079 Posts
Default

Nick,

If you are able, check to see what the status is reference the rebound slide spring that has been installed. If he put a very light spring in there, you may be able to restore the SA integrity by substituting an OEM rebound spring. (without further intervention)
__________________
Ret LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Last edited by armorer951; 02-02-2020 at 08:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 02-02-2020, 10:05 PM
Nick B Nick B is offline
US Veteran
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: S.W. Fl.
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 231
Liked 612 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Nick,

If you are able, check to see what the status is reference the rebound slide spring that has been installed. If he put a very light spring in there, you may be able to restore the SA integrity by substituting an OEM rebound spring. (without further intervention)
I’ll check it this week and post what I find .
**UPDATE** Success ! I installed a new rebound slide spring and the single action pull went from a dangerous 1.5 lbs to a consistent 3.0 lbs and I can live with that .
Thanks for the advice.

Last edited by Nick B; 02-07-2020 at 02:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 02-02-2020, 11:57 PM
Wrangler Rich's Avatar
Wrangler Rich Wrangler Rich is offline
US Veteran
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochelle, Illinois
Posts: 430
Likes: 401
Liked 778 Times in 263 Posts
Default

I bought a 4" 66 a couple of years ago with an easy push off also. I took the sidepate off and there was so much dust and lint in there, causing the problem. A good cleaning solved the issue.

WR
__________________
God, Country, Family
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 02-07-2020, 02:22 PM
Nick B Nick B is offline
US Veteran
Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help Push Off on pre M18 Help  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: S.W. Fl.
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 231
Liked 612 Times in 238 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
Nick,

If you are able, check to see what the status is reference the rebound slide spring that has been installed. If he put a very light spring in there, you may be able to restore the SA integrity by substituting an OEM rebound spring. (without further intervention)
Success ! I put a new spring in and the single action pull went from 1.5 lbs to a consistent 3.0 lbs with no push off .
Thanks for the advice.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what tool to push out and push in front dovetail sight on rifle? bushmaster1313 S&W-Smithing 11 05-05-2015 07:37 AM
17-4 push off help pineappleshooter S&W-Smithing 3 04-24-2014 03:11 PM
need a push on next M&P NordicG3K Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 18 02-02-2014 09:53 AM
Push Off and the Fix delta-419 S&W-Smithing 4 08-26-2010 01:06 PM
15-3 push off, I NEED HELP! CQB27 S&W-Smithing 11 07-16-2010 11:02 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:00 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2020
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)