Push Off on pre M18 Help

[Narragansett]

I just received a 1953 Pre M18, that I was going to try to clean up and rescue. It was shipped from another location to me.

Upon receipt, I went through the usual checkpoints, and when I got to the push off test, I would say about 4 to 5 pounds of thumb pressure will cause the hammer to fall forward.

My question is, is the engagement too light? Is there an acceptable push off pressure level? Knowing the condition, I could deal with it from a safety standpoint, but I would not dare sell it.

In general, I consider the gun unsafe.

What to do??

The seller will take it back

Thank you

[armorer951]

Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched. Check these points under magnification.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.

The actual SA pull weight is a good indicator of whether or not there is a problem. If the pull weight is below 2 3/4 - 3 pounds, then there may be an issue with the integrity of the parts. Remember, don't cyle the action or try to manipulate things under spring pressure with the sideplate off.

[Old_Cop]

Originally Posted by armorer951

Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.

There's your answer.

[Narragansett]

Originally Posted by armorer951

Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.

Thank you Carter, but in all honesty, I subscribe to the Dirty Harry theory that " A Man Has to Know His Limitations" and mine would be messing with the internals of the gun. I shoot them well, but I am not comfortable working on the internals. My initial thought is to return the gun

[armorer951]

Suit yourself. If pushoff is indeed the issue, it's a simple fix. There's another Dirty Harry theory, "If I can do it, anybody can do it."

And, if the trigger holds 3 pounds SA on a pull gauge, you're off the hook.

Perhaps someone locally could recommend a gunsmith you could take it to for an evaluation??

[Narragansett]

Originally Posted by armorer951

Suit yourself. If pushoff is indeed the issue, it's a simple fix. There's another Dirty Harry theory, "If I can do it, anybody can do it."

And, if the trigger holds 3 pounds SA on a pull gauge, you're off the hook.

Perhaps someone locally could recommend a gunsmith you could take it to for an evaluation??

Thank you Carter. This is something I bought in fair shape that I was just going to clean up and try to make a decent shooter out of. The value is not there to put any money into it

[Narragansett]

I pulled the slide plate, and I believe it looks pretty worn. I do not have a pull gauge, but the SA pull weight is much lighter than anything I own. My somewhat educated finger would say 1.5 pounds max. It's light!

[Patrick L]

I was under the assumption that you could VERY LIGHTLY try to point up the point on the trigger where it engages the SA notch (like 2-3 strokes on a hard stone, and pray) but that you should NEVER touch the SA notch on the hammer. This was due to the case hardening if I recall correctly. The theory was you would get into the softer inner metal, resulting in a soft on soft engagement surface which would of course wear quickly.

I am certainly not a gunsmith though, so please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[Narragansett]

Originally Posted by Patrick L

I was under the assumption that you could VERY LIGHTLY try to point up the point on the trigger where it engages the SA notch (like 2-3 strokes on a hard stone, and pray) but that you should NEVER touch the SA notch on the hammer. This was due to the case hardening if I recall correctly. The theory was you would get into the softer inner metal, resulting in a soft on soft engagement surface which would of course wear quickly.

I am certainly not a gunsmith though, so please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I think that is true of many engagement parts. The hardening only runs so deep

[ken158]

As noted, 951 have you the answer but also be sure the strain screw is tight and rebound spring has not been altered. An easy fix regardless but the honing angle has to be perfect. Understandable if you don’t feel confident with internal works. Maybe an armorer in your area will see this and offer a fix - I would but nowhere close to your location.

[andy52]

I bought a 686 no dash a few months ago that was probably much worse then what you describe. Just the lightest touch on the cocked hammer would release it.
armorer951 sent me a short video and photos of the procedure to reshape the trigger, it work fine and the gun is now safe to use.
Mine was some bubba's attempt to lighten the trigger that went very badly.

[Narragansett]

Thanks all, but the gun is on its' way back to the seller. I believe there were other issues with it also. The front of the cylinder scrapes the forcing cone. I did not get my gauges out, but you cannot see any gap, let alone .004-5. If this piece was in better shape, I would have had more interest in the restoration of it

[Nick B]

Originally Posted by armorer951

Check to see if it has a full length OEM rebound spring installed. Cut, weak or aftermarket springs can contribute to this condition. Also check the SA bevel on the trigger, and the SA cocking notch on the hammer. The bevel should be sharp, and the cocking notch on the hammer should look free from debris, and untouched. Check these points under magnification.

If you have no remedy, and the hammer notch has not been molested, send it to me and I'll sharpen it for you. Or, if you have a 6" medium India stone, I can send you some instructions so that you can do it yourself.

The actual SA pull weight is a good indicator of whether or not there is a problem. If the pull weight is below 2 3/4 - 3 pounds, then there may be an issue with the integrity of the parts. Remember, don't cyle the action or try to manipulate things under spring pressure with the sideplate off.

Could you please send me those instructions ? I have a 625-3 that a big name guild member gunsmith did an action job on it and now the thing is just too dangerous to shoot other than double action. Single action pull is probably 1 to 1.5 pounds .
Thanks in advance.

[armorer951]

Nick,

If you are able, check to see what the status is reference the rebound slide spring that has been installed. If he put a very light spring in there, you may be able to restore the SA integrity by substituting an OEM rebound spring. (without further intervention)

[Nick B]

Originally Posted by armorer951

Nick,

If you are able, check to see what the status is reference the rebound slide spring that has been installed. If he put a very light spring in there, you may be able to restore the SA integrity by substituting an OEM rebound spring. (without further intervention)

I’ll check it this week and post what I find .
**UPDATE** Success ! I installed a new rebound slide spring and the single action pull went from a dangerous 1.5 lbs to a consistent 3.0 lbs and I can live with that .
Thanks for the advice.

[Wrangler Rich]

I bought a 4" 66 a couple of years ago with an easy push off also. I took the sidepate off and there was so much dust and lint in there, causing the problem. A good cleaning solved the issue.

WR

[Nick B]

Originally Posted by armorer951

Nick,

If you are able, check to see what the status is reference the rebound slide spring that has been installed. If he put a very light spring in there, you may be able to restore the SA integrity by substituting an OEM rebound spring. (without further intervention)

Success ! I put a new spring in and the single action pull went from 1.5 lbs to a consistent 3.0 lbs with no push off .
Thanks for the advice.