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Old 03-04-2020, 01:30 AM
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Default Nickel Repairs

I have this little 32 HE that has some damage to the nickel finish.

First off, I don't think it is factory plating. There is no "N" stamped on the rear face of the cylinder or on the grip frame or anywhere else I can find.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but if it were factory it would be stamped, right?

I polished it up with some Mothers Mag Polish and a felt wheel on my Dremel to try to blend the metal under the missing nickel spots into the finish, but I'm not really that happy with how it turned out. I've posted some before and after pics below.

Anyway, with the amount of damage to the finish, it is just a shooter at this point, so I am considering an experiment to try to fix the damage.

What I am considering is one of these kits
Plug N' Plate(R) Nickel Kit - Caswell Inc

Anybody have any experience with using this kit (or anything like it) to repair damage to a nickel finish? My thought is that with the amount of damage, I really can't hurt it much. Any thoughts?
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:33 PM
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The brush type plating kits work well. I have used one by Texas Platers Supply since the 1980's.
The Caswell looks like it works the same way.
They have a plug in power source which is nice.

I use a M/C battery charger with mine now. Back when I first bought it I used those big dry cell batterys. But it worked!

The biggest thing is metal prep, just as if it were going to be plated in a commercial plating shop.
You can't just plate over the base metal (steel in this case) that has not been properly polished and cleaned.
Polished means to a dead flat, sharp edged, mirror finish
Cleaned prior to plating is chemically clean. Not just swiped with acetone or alcohol swab and a soft cloth.

So there's a lot of preparation to do before you even get to the point where the plating gear gets involved.
On a revolver like this you have to decide wether you want to polish each and every area that has worn through to the steel back up to a mirror finish and blend it to the surrounding nickel. Then plate each of those areas to blend to the surrounding areas of orig nickel.
...or,, just polish the entire gun and nickel plate the entire surface again.

It's a lot of work either way.
Polishing prep for a plated surface is difficult work. Way beyond prep for bluing.

Best results on steel for the home plater will be to do a flash plating of copper first, then the nickel.

You have to buff the flash plate of copper after it's plated,,then clean that before the nickel is applied.
After nickel is plated it looks dull, milky and nothing like the shiny nickel we are used to.
Once again, the nickel must be buffed or carefully hand polished to bring up the shine of the finish.
Nickel is fairly hard so it's a bit easier to polish than gold or silver after being plated.

I always used SimiChrome for a polish. A loose cotton buffing wheel (OMG!) with the S/Chrome applied right to the wheel & some to the part works well.
It flys around quite a bit but gets the job done w/o cutting through the plating you just did. Hard to reach areas can be brightened up by brushing them with S/Chrome on a soft toothbrush or even a Q-tip.

I've done complete pistols with the Texas Platers kits. But only small ones,,25 autos and the like.
I have used it to do cylinders, trigger guards, backstraps, ect. It works fine. I can't tell you how many Win21 and A5 triggers got re-gold plated with it.

Can it work?,,yes absolutely.
It's a lot of work though and the plating itself is actually the easy part.

Hope this Helps
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:50 PM
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Excellent info 2152hq! Thank you. I just KNEW there had to be someone who had done this. Nothing new under the sun, right?

Supposedly this Caswell kit will plate directly to the steel, or so they claim. I may buy some of the copper plating solution too, just to do the flash plating of copper first as you suggest.

I appreciate your sharing that you do this with a battery or a battery charger instead of the little wimpy power source that comes in their "kit" I linked to. I wondered if higher current would be a problem - possibly "burning" the surface or something like that. Since that obviously isn't a consideration I may just buy some of their solution and make my own "wand" and power supply.

The wand looks like it is just a strip of copper or steel (it comes in different metals) with a piece of shrink tubing on it as a "handle" and a bit of gauze wrapped around the end to soak up the solution. I can make that, and I have a ton of 5v-10v power supplies that will put out 1.7 amps or more (like theirs). Attaching a couple of alligator clips to the leads is a no brainer, and I already have some of those lying around too. So, since the only thing I really have to buy is the plating solutions, this experiment just got really inexpensive.

I understand that for a near-perfect result that the areas to be re-plated need to be mirror smooth, and that the result will be only as good as the polishing. Makes perfect sense. I also already understood the need to polish afterwards since the deposited nickel is going to be frosty in appearance.

The one part of your reply that I still have questions about is getting it "chemically clean" prior to plating. You mention that an acetone or alcohol de-grease isn't enough. How/what do you use to get it sufficiently "chemically clean"?
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:09 PM
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Pre war nickeled guns seldom had the N stamp. The lack of the B stamp means it is originally factory nickel.

S&W did not pre-plate with copper.
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:35 PM
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Pre war nickeled guns seldom had the N stamp. The lack of the B stamp means it is originally factory nickel.

S&W did not pre-plate with copper.
AHA! So then this is likely original nickel since the rollmarks are all so crisp, side seam tight, and hammer/trigger are case-colored.

Kinda' gives me pause about messing with the finish. But on the other hand, the original finish is in such poor shape over about 30% of the gun (or more)…

I knew that S&W didn't pre-plate, but from what 2152hq about his experience with the brush plating kits, it would seem he's of the opinion that copper pre-plating works better than not doing it.

My other thought is that the copper pre-plate might also help fill in any surface imperfections like the pinpoint sized pits that there are in a few places. My only concern about it is around the edges where the remaining nickel plating and the bare steel meet. I'm wondering if there will be any adhesion problems or other issues with the copper plating overlapping onto the nickel? I'm assuming there wouldn't be. If the nickel will adhere to copper plate then the copper should adhere to the nickel just as well. Of course the final coat of nickel will have to overlap the resulting edge of copper over old nickel for it to all come out even.

Maybe I'm over thinking this?
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Old 03-04-2020, 04:38 PM
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When re-nickeling, all old plating is removed by reversing the current of the plating process. You won't be happy trying to 'patch' the nickeling. The edges will be evident. Try if you like though.

You can fill the pin prick pits with copper w/o doing the entire gun. Then polishing the copper flat and flush with the surface. You can even just fill them with solder or silver solder and polish flat.
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Old 03-04-2020, 06:00 PM
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By chemically clean I meant to impress the fact of how clean it must be. We can get away with some things (slightly) when bluing,,not so when plating. The smallest amt of contamination from anything can ruin the job.

You can fill pits and even dents and gouges in the base metal before plating. You can do that with the copper under coat with repeated plating and very careful polishing back down to fill the defects.
Very slow work.
The pits must be cleared of any rust in them or the plating won't 'take' of course.
Another method is to fill the as mentioned above by Hondo.
Hard Solder, High Temp Silver solder or Braze was used in the factorys. But they were working on frames and parts that were being 'saved' because of the defects.
To fill on a frame in restoration, soft solder is used,. Use the new No Lead type. It is tin & a bit of silver. It takes plating nicely, does not oxidize after you 'solder' so you can do a bunch of areas and polish them out and not have them start to oxidize like lead solder which will push off the re-plating.
You have to be careful polishing out soft solder more than the Hard Solder as being softer you have a tendency to undercut and wollow it out even in hand polishing. Even a little will show after plating.

I set the M/C bat charger on 6v. Works perfectly. I got quite a surprise a couple times it was set on 12v.
I don't know much about Elextronixs.
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Old 03-04-2020, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
When re-nickeling, all old plating is removed by reversing the current of the plating process. You won't be happy trying to 'patch' the nickeling. The edges will be evident. Try if you like though.

You can fill the pin prick pits with copper w/o doing the entire gun. Then polishing the copper flat and flush with the surface. You can even just fill them with solder or silver solder and polish flat.
LOL, considering how poor it looks as is you might be surprised by what level of improvement will make me happy
Especially if it only costs me a few bucks, a little time, and some elbow grease!
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Old 03-04-2020, 06:10 PM
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By chemically clean I meant to impress the fact of how clean it must be. We can get away with some things (slightly) when bluing,,not so when plating. The smallest amt of contamination from anything can ruin the job.

You can fill pits and even dents and gouges in the base metal before plating. You can do that with the copper under coat with repeated plating and very careful polishing back down to fill the defects.
Very slow work.
The pits must be cleared of any rust in them or the plating won't 'take' of course.
Another method is to fill the as mentioned above by Hondo.
Hard Solder, High Temp Silver solder or Braze was used in the factorys. But they were working on frames and parts that were being 'saved' because of the defects.
To fill on a frame in restoration, soft solder is used,. Use the new No Lead type. It is tin & a bit of silver. It takes plating nicely, does not oxidize after you 'solder' so you can do a bunch of areas and polish them out and not have them start to oxidize like lead solder which will push off the re-plating.
You have to be careful polishing out soft solder more than the Hard Solder as being softer you have a tendency to undercut and wollow it out even in hand polishing. Even a little will show after plating.

I set the M/C bat charger on 6v. Works perfectly. I got quite a surprise a couple times it was set on 12v.
I don't know much about Elextronixs.
Gotcha. I'll get some copper plate solution too, and if that doesn't do it I'll try the lead free solder and see how it goes.

There isn't much in the way of pitting. Just a little here and there and like I said it looks like pinpoint dimples. Shouldn't take much to fix.

From your comment I take it that 12 volts was too much? Maybe a little arcing - maybe even an electric tingle?
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Old 03-05-2020, 12:31 AM
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One other question for you 2152hq.
Will the tin/silver solder stick to the existing nickel plating?
It would be a lot easier if it didn't, because if it does I'll need to be really careful not to let any of it get onto adjacent areas with good original plating when I'm replating worn areas.
I'm sure it will stick to areas that I've flash-copper plated, so that if the copper doesn't fill the pinpoint pits I can apply the solder without stripping the copper off first, right?
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Old 03-05-2020, 11:06 AM
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The soft solder I've used didn't take to the nickel finish. Some would tin the surface but you could push it right off with your fingernail.
I've just used common 50-50 stuff and the 95/5 tin-silver.
There may some types of soft solder that will, as there are some specially made for stainless steel and so forth.

It will as you suspect solder nicely to a coat of copper plating.

Yes 12v was a bit much! Instant smoke and sizzling from the plating goop when the 'brush' contacts the surface.
'Too much juice' would be my un-electrical trained response,,and quite an arc if you happen to touch the metal part of the brush to the base metal.

Even when set on 6v you will get a very slight arc when the metal part of the brush touches the part. But it's so small it's hardly noticable. I can hear it more than see it. Just a slight snap noise.
The use of the 2 large drycell batt would do the same very slight arc and snap.
In fact to test to make sure I have contact when I first hook it up up, I arc the brush against the - somewhere along the line to make sure. Look for the spark!
But those contact arc points can leave a dark pinpoint on the plating surface if you happen to contact the brush to the part while plating. Sometimes additional plating will just cover it up. Sometimes you have to take a moment and carefully polish the area clear of the discoloration and then go on.

The plating brushes look like nothing more than common 'acid brushes'
The all metal handle brush w/ synthetic black bristles.
The one thing added to them is a small extension of the metal handle that holds a metal contact plate just off of the bristles on one side.

The brush is attached to the +.
Part to the -
Then the bristles are dripped into the plating soln which is a jelly like consistancy,,I call it goop.
As you press the brush bristles down on the part, the bristles bend and the goop completes the circuit betw the part and the + brush connection.
Plating is from then on simply a brushing back and forth, different directions, ect adding the plating jell as needed to keep the bristles full for contact and to add new plating to the surface.
The brushes wash out with warm water.

I wash the parts with warm water and dry. Then polish. Then hopefully I don't have to plate again!

If you have a small part that you can't clamp the - to, Either hold the part with a pliers where it wont mare and clamp to the pliers.
If a small flat part like and escutcheon or initial shield, clamp the - to a sewing needle and hold the part down with the point while plating.

You can even plate/replate an initial shield that is in a stock w/o removing it using the needle. It's best to tape around the shield to avoid the jell from getting on the wood finish as there is a chance it can discolor it.

Pretty handy unit especially for restoration work where little stuff needs to be repaired and touched up.

I'll dig out a Texas Platers brush and post a pic.
I'm sure acid brushes could be mod to work if you didn't want to buy them.
It's the bristles that wear away on the brushes and makes them less than useful, not that contact plate.

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Old 03-05-2020, 11:24 AM
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Thanks for all the info 2152hq, I'm getting a really good primer on this stuff!
A couple of questions though.

The solder I planned on using is 98%tin, 2% silver. Is that the same thing you are calling "soft solder" above? The stuff the plating won't stick to? Or is that the kind of solder that will take the plating well? If not, what is the right type to use?

Secondly, will the solder stick to the existing nickel plating? I'm thinking the nickel is probably too slick for it to stick, but I'd like to know what to expect before I actually start.

The Caswell plating solution looks like more of a liquid - not as "goopy" s you are describing. Their kits don't actually use a "brush" per se. They come with what looks like a 2" long by 3/8" wide flat piece of metal, with about a 45-degree bend about 1/2" from one end as a "brush". The longer part is the "handle" and looks like it is insulated with a piece of shrink tubing. To use it you wrap the non insulated 1/2" end with gauze, secured by a rubber band where it meets the 1-1/2" long insulated handle section. The + lead clips to the end of the handle farthest from the gauze wrapped "working end". Looks like something I can easily make.

I ordered some copper and some nickel solution last night. The rest of it I can put together myself in a few minutes.
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Old 03-06-2020, 04:57 PM
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For anyone interested in this topic, I had a good email exchange with Caswell's customer service/tech support.

They tell me the copper plating will adhere to the bare steel, but not to the old nickel plate. Kind of interesting that the copper plating won't adhere to the old nickel, but the new nickel will adhere to the copper and to the old nickel?

I don't quite get how that works.
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Old 03-06-2020, 07:20 PM
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I suspect the copper will adhere to the pores in the bare metal but not the smooth surface of the nickel.
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:05 PM
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One other thing I've been thinking about is how to remove any tiny bits of rust that may be in the pits. I've read that white vinegar will remove bluing, so would it work well to remove any flecks of rust? Maybe I should get some naval jelly instead? I just want to be sure any rust that exists is fully eradicated before I start putting down the plating.
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Old 03-07-2020, 12:14 AM
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That 98/2 (tin/silver) will work fine for the copper to adhere to. The stuff I have just happens to be 95/5 (tin/silver).
The idea is that the plating takes to both the tin and the silver alloy content in the solder. They are soft solders,,flow at around 400/450.

Regular common lead/tin soft solders will work pretty well too especially the higher the tin content.
But the Tin/Silver stuff is better and won't oxidize after polishing it out like the lead content stuff does. So you can do the prep and not have to be concerned with a film of lead oxide stating to form on the surface of the patches before you get around to plating day..
It's just another thing that can effect the quality of the finished job.

I haven't ever had either of these solders attach themselves to nickel plating and hold. Sometimes some will flow onto the nickel but it lifts right off w/a fingernail.

Maybe if one of the so called 'acid flux' were used, it may adhere. They are Zinc chloride usually. They cause lots of after rust also if not very thoroughly rinsed from the surfaces.
Very effective soft solder flux, but the after effects are hard to deal with.
I don't use it in gun work at all.

Getting rust out of pits,,the really deep down stuff can be difficult. Even polishing sometimes misses it. It looks gone but magnification shows the pitting still there and if it is, there's probably still rust at the bottom of it.

About the weakest and safest for of rust removal is a Very weak soln of oxalic acid.
The same stuff you use to bleach wood safely.

It's very slow working in weak concentrations but will not attack the steel of the plating.
Do some research on it. It can be used in a strong soln to quickly remove rust from anything. But it is used in the restoration biz in very weak solns where high value and sometimes unkn materials lay underneath the rusted layers.
Sodium Bicarb neutralizes the left over soln and your parts when done. Then simple water rinsing.

That's what I'd use to get at the rust/pits.
Navel Jelly (phosphoric acid) might(?) dull or etch the existing nickel, I'm not sure.
Also sometimes the Navel Jelly type products are not pure phosphoric acid. Instead they are another chemical that turns the rust to a black color and it basicly neutralizes it, but the compound is still there.
I don't know if that would blend well with plating over the top.

Just some thoughts...


The Caswell plating soln does look more like a liquid and needs an absorbant matl to hold it while the current passes through it. A swab or pad saturated with it.

Here's a couple pics of the Texas Platers brush. Hasn't changed in 40+ yrs.

Simple metal handled Acid Brush with a small plate attached to one side of the bristles.
Load up the bristles with the jell like plating goop. Press down with the brush against the - charged part.
It flattens the bristles loaded with the jell against the metal brush and it's plate with are hooked the +.
Current moves through the jell and the gold/nickel/ silver/copper/brass plates out onto the part.

Presto,,plated gun parts!







That little bit of rust always seemed to form on the back side of the plate where it is attached (spot welded?) to the handle matrl extension.
It never bothered anything and never showed up on the underside where the plating jell contact takes place.


If you want to polish it all up yourself, you can send it to this place:
Custom Gold & Silver Plating, Antique Finishing: Reliable Electroplating: Chartley, MA

They have an FFL and have been doing firearms for many years.
I've done business with them for probably 30 yrs.
Lots of engravers, gunsmithing & restoration shops use them.
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Old 03-07-2020, 12:51 AM
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I am confused 2152hq. These 3 statements from your previous posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
Another method is to fill the as mentioned above by Hondo. Hard Solder, High Temp Silver solder or Braze was used in the factorys. But they were working on frames and parts that were being 'saved' because of the defects.To fill on a frame in restoration, soft solder is used. Use the new No Lead type. It is tin & a bit of silver. It takes plating nicely
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
The soft solder I've used didn't take to the nickel finish. Some would tin the surface but you could push it right off with your fingernail.
I've just used common 50-50 stuff and the 95/5 tin-silver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
That 98/2 (tin/silver) will work fine for the copper to adhere to. The stuff I have just happens to be 95/5 (tin/silver).
The idea is that the plating takes to both the tin and the silver alloy content in the solder.

They are soft solders flow at around 400/450. Regular common lead/tin soft solders will work pretty well too especially the higher the tin content.
...seem to be contradictory.

In the first statement you seem to be saying the tin-silver hard solder works best but soft lead-tin solder will also work.

The second statement seems to say that the tin-silver solder will work well, but that the softer lead-tin solder won't hold up and the plating doesn't really stick well to it.

Then the third statement seems to go back to saying any kind will work.

I guess what I'd like ask for you to clear up for me is what you are defining as hard solder and what you consider soft solder and which works best.

I know the traditional lead-tin solder is soft solder.
Is the 98% tin 2% silver or (95% tin 2% silver) what you are calling hard solder? Or is that also a soft solder? And if it it considered a soft solder, then what IS the hard solder you are referring to?

As for the naval jelly, I know there are products with phosphoric acid in them that "converts" rust to a hard black coating. I know that wouldn't work well to take plating. I wouldn't even consider any of those products.

No, I was talking about plain old naval jelly that dissolves rust and leaves bare metal behind.
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Old 03-07-2020, 02:02 AM
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Naval Jelly is a brand name and not to be referenced generically.

It leaves a clean gray surface, not black.
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Old 03-07-2020, 02:30 AM
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Naval Jelly is a brand name and not to be referenced generically.

It leaves a clean gray surface, not black.
While I'm sure that was the case at one time, but it has come to be used as a generic reference to a type of product (like Kleenex)

What Is Naval Jelly? | Reference.com

The links below show products specifically named naval jelly produced by Duro, Permatex, Loctite, etc. and even more products that fit the description but don't bear the specific name. And as 2152hq alluded to, some of them contain rust converters like phosphoric acid...

https://www.best-deal.com/search/lan...jelly/s/yahoo/
McMaster-Carr
Robot Check
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=naval%20jelly

So you definitely have to be careful and know what you're buying.
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:40 AM
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They may be "named" naval jelly but they're not the Navy Jelly brand. Here's the real McCoy:




Having used the Loctite version I can also vouch for it to work exactly the same.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:55 AM
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I am confused 2152hq. These 3 statements from your previous posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
Another method is to fill the as mentioned above by Hondo. Hard Solder, High Temp Silver solder or Braze was used in the factorys. But they were working on frames and parts that were being 'saved' because of the defects.To fill on a frame in restoration, soft solder is used. Use the new No Lead type. It is tin & a bit of silver. It takes plating nicely
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
The soft solder I've used didn't take to the nickel finish. Some would tin the surface but you could push it right off with your fingernail.
I've just used common 50-50 stuff and the 95/5 tin-silver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
That 98/2 (tin/silver) will work fine for the copper to adhere to. The stuff I have just happens to be 95/5 (tin/silver).
The idea is that the plating takes to both the tin and the silver alloy content in the solder.

They are soft solders flow at around 400/450. Regular common lead/tin soft solders will work pretty well too especially the higher the tin content.
...seem to be contradictory....."

>
>
>

I think the confusion comes from the more recent introduction of the SOFT SOLDER called SILVER SOLDER (because of the alloy content).
..and what was always in the past called SILVER SOLDER which was NOT soft solder, but instead a High Temp (1000*F near brazing heat ) solder containing usually cadium, copper, some silver and other heavy metals.

..also the term 'tin the surface' means to coat the surface with a solder or braze.
It doesn't necessarily mean the use of the alloy 'Tin',,though it can be used.

Hope this is better:..

95/5 Tin/Silver Solder is a 'Soft Solder'. Commonly called 'Silver Solder' now.
It melts and flows in the 400F+ range.
That it doesn't contain Lead makes it all the rage for the environmental crowd. Safe for use in California, ect.
It does not oxidize (turn grey) as there is not lead in it.
It takes plating well as both the Tin and the Silver plate well.

98/2 Tin/Silver is the same thing as above, a 'no lead' Soft Solder.
Commonly called 'Silver Solder' now.
Just a different alloy of the 2 metals in the make up for different applications.
This will solder just the same as the 95/5 and take plating just as well as the 95/5.
The different alloys are made for different applications in industry,,Electrical, Refrigeration, Plumbling, General use, ect. all sorts of specialty alloy make ups.


50/50 or 60/40 are Lead/Tin alloy Soft Solders. They also melt/flow in the 400/600F range.
But that they are alloys containing Lead, they will oxidize if their polished surfaces are left for a time and that oxidation will resist the plating.
The Lead/Tin alloy Soft Solders will take plating because of the Tin in a the alloy makeup (the higher the Tin content the better). But these Lead/Tin solders do not take plating as well as the Tin/Silver Soft Solders above nor as good as the HIGH TEMP Hard Solder (formerly known as Silver Solder.

The last one is Braze. Simple brazing done with acetylene set up. Heat is just under welding heat. You'll be around 1700F+.
Brazing rod is readily commercially available. Easy to do once you get the hang of it, but touchy work on small parts which may disappear in a poof of sparks if you over do it and melt the steel while trying work that braze around a bit too much.

High Temp Hard Solder (around 1000F) is a safer bet if you do want to try something other than one of the Soft Solders (400/500F)as you won't be tempted to get nearly so close to the point of melting steel while working.
Heat scale on parts is a problem after the work cools with both Brazing & High Temp Hard Soldering.
But that can be rid of with a soaking is very weak muriadic acid.
You'll need a special separate flux for use with either process also.

You won't have any heat scale from soft soldering with any of the above. Either Tin/Silver alloys or Lead/Tin. The temps are too low for that.
Maybe some color change to the metal (blue) but that goes right away with polishing. Just shows the metal got too hot when soft soldering.

I hope this helps,,maybe it muddys the water!
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Old 03-07-2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
They may be "named" naval jelly but they're not the Navy Jelly brand. Here's the real McCoy:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QP5EYLK...tag=A9HZ84Q1GR

Having used the Loctite version I can also vouch for it to work exactly the same.
Cool, thanks for the "endorsement", it is always helpful to hear about someone's first hand experience - especially since the Loctite brand is readily available locally.
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Old 03-07-2020, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38
I am confused 2152hq. These 3 statements from your previous posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
Another method is to fill the as mentioned above by Hondo. Hard Solder, High Temp Silver solder or Braze was used in the factorys. But they were working on frames and parts that were being 'saved' because of the defects.To fill on a frame in restoration, soft solder is used. Use the new No Lead type. It is tin & a bit of silver. It takes plating nicely

The soft solder I've used didn't take to the nickel finish. Some would tin the surface but you could push it right off with your fingernail.
I've just used common 50-50 stuff and the 95/5 tin-silver.
Quote:

That 98/2 (tin/silver) will work fine for the copper to adhere to. The stuff I have just happens to be 95/5 (tin/silver).
The idea is that the plating takes to both the tin and the silver alloy content in the solder.

They are soft solders flow at around 400/450. Regular common lead/tin soft solders will work pretty well too especially the higher the tin content.
...seem to be contradictory....."

I think the confusion comes from the more recent introduction of the SOFT SOLDER called SILVER SOLDER (because of the alloy content).
..and what was always in the past called SILVER SOLDER which was NOT soft solder, but instead a High Temp (1000*F near brazing heat ) solder containing usually cadium, copper, some silver and other heavy metals.

..also the term 'tin the surface' means to coat the surface with a solder or braze.
It doesn't necessarily mean the use of the alloy 'Tin',,though it can be used.

Hope this is better:..

95/5 Tin/Silver Solder is a 'Soft Solder'. Commonly called 'Silver Solder' now.
It melts and flows in the 400F+ range.
That it doesn't contain Lead makes it all the rage for the environmental crowd. Safe for use in California, ect.
It does not oxidize (turn grey) as there is not lead in it.
It takes plating well as both the Tin and the Silver plate well.

98/2 Tin/Silver is the same thing as above, a 'no lead' Soft Solder.
Commonly called 'Silver Solder' now.
Just a different alloy of the 2 metals in the make up for different applications.
This will solder just the same as the 95/5 and take plating just as well as the 95/5.
The different alloys are made for different applications in industry,,Electrical, Refrigeration, Plumbling, General use, ect. all sorts of specialty alloy make ups.


50/50 or 60/40 are Lead/Tin alloy Soft Solders. They also melt/flow in the 400/600F range.
But that they are alloys containing Lead, they will oxidize if their polished surfaces are left for a time and that oxidation will resist the plating.
The Lead/Tin alloy Soft Solders will take plating because of the Tin in a the alloy makeup (the higher the Tin content the better). But these Lead/Tin solders do not take plating as well as the Tin/Silver Soft Solders above nor as good as the HIGH TEMP Hard Solder (formerly known as Silver Solder.

The last one is Braze. Simple brazing done with acetylene set up. Heat is just under welding heat. You'll be around 1700F+.
Brazing rod is readily commercially available. Easy to do once you get the hang of it, but touchy work on small parts which may disappear in a poof of sparks if you over do it and melt the steel while trying work that braze around a bit too much.

High Temp Hard Solder (around 1000F) is a safer bet if you do want to try something other than one of the Soft Solders (400/500F)as you won't be tempted to get nearly so close to the point of melting steel while working.
Heat scale on parts is a problem after the work cools with both Brazing & High Temp Hard Soldering.
But that can be rid of with a soaking is very weak muriadic acid.
You'll need a special separate flux for use with either process also.

You won't have any heat scale from soft soldering with any of the above. Either Tin/Silver alloys or Lead/Tin. The temps are too low for that.
Maybe some color change to the metal (blue) but that goes right away with polishing. Just shows the metal got too hot when soft soldering.

I hope this helps,,maybe it muddys the water!
Not at all, that clears up my confusion completely - Thanks! I appreciate how much effort you've put into helping me sharing your experience and knowledge.

Sounds to me like the 95%-5% tin-silver solder will be the best readily available compromise since it will be a little harder and should take the plating a little better than the higher tin content solders.

BTW, i knew what you meant by "tinning"- I've actually worked in the electronics manufacturing industry, but it probably was a good clarification for anyone reading this who hasn't done much soldering.
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Old 03-07-2020, 03:52 PM
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They may be "named" naval jelly but they're not the Navy Jelly brand. Here's the real McCoy:

Robot Check

Having used the Loctite version I can also vouch for it to work exactly the same.

All it is is phosphoric acid in a thick gel form.
The same acid in Cola that used to dissolve rusted lug nuts on a car in an emergency.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:29 PM
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All it is is phosphoric acid in a thick gel form.
The same acid in Cola that used to dissolve rusted lug nuts on a car in an emergency.
Interesting. I've always understood that phosphoric acid is a rust converter. Chemically it combines with the ferrous oxide (rust) to create ferric phosphate - a hard black coating.

Here's an interesting test of rust dissolving products.
The best bang for the buck seems to be white vinegar. It is also the thinnest product which might make it work better for micro pitting.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:06 PM
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Interesting. I've always understood that phosphoric acid is a rust converter. Chemically it combines with the ferrous oxide (rust) to create ferric phosphate - a hard black coating.

Here's an interesting test of rust dissolving products.
YouTube
The best bang for the buck seems to be white vinegar. It is also the thinnest product which might make it work better for micro pitting.

http://archpdfs.lps.org/Chemicals/Na...er_Loctite.pdf


Take it to a bumper shop and have it chromed!
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:23 PM
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http://archpdfs.lps.org/Chemicals/Na...er_Loctite.pdf


Take it to a bumper shop and have it chromed!
OK, well that definitely proves that formulation of Loctite naval jelly has a lot of phosphoric acid in it. Must be the combination of ingredients that keeps it from forming the coating. Maybe the sufuric acid? I know that white vinegar contains acetic acid.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:47 PM
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Well, for anyone who was following this thread, I'm having some very mixed results.

First off the guy at Caswell tech support told me that the copper solution wouldn't lay down copper onto the existing nickel. He said it would only stick to the bare steel. So supposedly the copper won't plate over old nickel, but the new nickel will plate over the copper? That didn't make sense to me.

Well, it's not true. The copper plated right onto the old nickel AND onto the steel, just great. No problems with that so far.

The nickel is a different story. I can't seem to get it to plate onto the copper OR the steel OR the copper. At least not the way that the copper does.

The nickel over copper never seems to change color - it stays copper looking. Over the nickeled area it seems to dull the finish, but it doesn't seem to have any affect on the dark areas where the nickel is damaged.

The solution seems to kind of "fizz" a little, so I know the current is there. I scrubbed the area with alcohol first, so it should be good and clean. I'm using a wand I made from a piece of stainless steel, because that is what the wand they sell with the nickel kit is made from. I'm wrapping the end of the wand with gauze exactly like what I did for the copper wand.

I don't get it. Maybe the stainless alloy isn't right - maybe not conductive enough? I even tried reversing the polarity, though I knew that wouldn't help, and it didn't. Maybe I need to try using the copper wand with the nickel solution.

So anybody got any ideas or suggestions on what I'm doing wrong or what I need to do differently?
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:56 PM
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I'm not a plater so just random thoughts on what you've reported so far:

I would skip the copper entirely. I don't see the need. The factory never used it either.

If the bare metal areas are dark or not dark but still have surface contamination in the pores that alcohol won't remove (but sanding/polishing might), nothing will stick to it.

A discussion with the plating kit manufacturer might be in order.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:34 PM
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I'm not a plater so just random thoughts on what you've reported so far:

I would skip the copper entirely. I don't see the need. The factory never used it either.

If the bare metal areas are dark or not dark but still have surface contamination in the pores that alcohol won't remove (but sanding/polishing might), nothing will stick to it.

A discussion with the plating kit manufacturer might be in order.
Yeah, I don't quite get why there are dark spots where the nickel is missing. I've hit those spots with a wire wheel in my dremel tool and with a polishing wheel and Mothers Mag Wheel polish using a felt wheel in my dremel. I also scrubbed them with alcohol and a brush. I don't know how to clean them any better or deeper. I suppose I could sand them but that is going to leave an uneven surface and/ore damage the roll marks and I want to avoid that if I can.

The copper underplating was suggested by 2152hq - and he DOES have experience at doing this, so I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong.

BTW, I tried plating a section of the barrel without using the copper first, and the results weren't any better.
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:09 PM
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"I've hit those spots with a wire wheel in my dremel tool and with a polishing wheel and Mothers Mag Wheel polish using a felt wheel in my dremel." My guess is that your method has introduced contamination into the microscopic pores in the steel. Crocus Cloth will leave a residue also. I don't know the solution but my father blued guns and he boiled the parts strung on wire in distilled water for 20 minutes then allowed them to air dry before immersing them in the bluing solution.
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Old 03-30-2020, 03:14 PM
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Bump to the top.
Calling on 2152hq and anyone else who has done this for some advice.
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Old 04-08-2020, 03:07 PM
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Late to the call, sorry didn't see the msg.

If the soln is fizzing or foaming upon application, I have an idea that the current is too strong. Not an electric guy of any sort, so you'll have to excuse my description and wording.

I mentioned that I use a M/C battery charger for a power source and set the thing on 6v. With that, if I happen to touch the brush steel portion to the part I get a small spark. Nothing big at all and I usually do it intensionally to make sure I have the thing hooked up right.

IF (and I've done this a couple times) I for some reason have clicked the charger over to 12v and didn't notice it,,,I get a very large spark!
But at the 12v setting if I just went ahead and started plating (using the plating soln/gel) like it's supposed to be used in the brush (no metal to metal contact quick check that'd tell me I have it set wrong) the soln/gel will fizzle and foam as soon as I make contact. I may even get a bit of smoke.

The plating at this higher voltage if you can call it that is dark grey almost black in color, blotchy and not at all savable.
Even that short time on the surface is ruined and the surface has to be repolished and startover.

Also I would go to an plain carbon steel wand. Stainless steel I have an idea may be part of the problem,,just my guess though. No expert here, but I don't think S/Steel is used much around plating.

Copper should plate to steel,,old nickel, old silver, gold, old copper, ect.
You can also use Brass as a pre-plate matrl.
The smoothness of the surface you are plating to has nothing to do with wether the new plating will 'stick' or not.
It's not paint, it's electro plating deposit of molecules.

What does matter is that the surface is clean, like I mention way back when.

Alcohol cleaning is probably not enough to clean up a surface for plating.
Especially if the surface has been buffed with any sort of compound...
That compound is forced into the microscopic pores of the steel by the process. Even if you do it by hand.
By machine buffing the pores of the steel are actually smeared closed to some extent,,that's what gives machine buffing it's fast shine. But it traps the compound in there.

Any old surface has to be polished down to clean and what I call 'clear' steel surface. Old pits must be gone as the rust in them must be gone.
What ever the shine/brilliance you bring the steel back up to will be what the plating will be. Simple as that.
If you polish the steel back up to a 400grit finish,,that is what the plating will be,,a 400 shine. You can coax a little bit more shine out of the plating simply because of what it is,,a bright metal that reflects well. But the underlying polish is still 400 grit lines and you can't polish that any further unless you remove and get below the plating you just put over it.

It's not a simple business. Touchup is ever harder if total 100% results are expected.
Dark areas of touch up plating surrounded by bright areas of orig plating usually show that the touch up areas were not polished high enough and/or not clean enough for the plating to be done.

Like bluing, all Nickel is not the same. Nor is Gold or Silver.
Matching color is difficult.
Throw in 100yrs of oxidation & wear and there is a very slim chance a touch up will blend in and hide w/o being seen.

It can be done. It takes time and experience,( that's a nice word for failures that you worked on for nothing)
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Old 04-08-2020, 06:32 PM
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Late to the call, sorry didn't see the msg.

If the soln is fizzing or foaming upon application, I have an idea that the current is too strong. Not an electric guy of any sort, so you'll have to excuse my description and wording.

I mentioned that I use a M/C battery charger for a power source and set the thing on 6v. With that, if I happen to touch the brush steel portion to the part I get a small spark. Nothing big at all and I usually do it intensionally to make sure I have the thing hooked up right.

IF (and I've done this a couple times) I for some reason have clicked the charger over to 12v and didn't notice it,,,I get a very large spark!
But at the 12v setting if I just went ahead and started plating (using the plating soln/gel) like it's supposed to be used in the brush (no metal to metal contact quick check that'd tell me I have it set wrong) the soln/gel will fizzle and foam as soon as I make contact. I may even get a bit of smoke.

The plating at this higher voltage if you can call it that is dark grey almost black in color, blotchy and not at all savable.
Even that short time on the surface is ruined and the surface has to be repolished and startover.

Also I would go to an plain carbon steel wand. Stainless steel I have an idea may be part of the problem,,just my guess though. No expert here, but I don't think S/Steel is used much around plating.

Copper should plate to steel,,old nickel, old silver, gold, old copper, ect.
You can also use Brass as a pre-plate matrl.
The smoothness of the surface you are plating to has nothing to do with wether the new plating will 'stick' or not.
It's not paint, it's electro plating deposit of molecules.

What does matter is that the surface is clean, like I mention way back when.

Alcohol cleaning is probably not enough to clean up a surface for plating.
Especially if the surface has been buffed with any sort of compound...
That compound is forced into the microscopic pores of the steel by the process. Even if you do it by hand.
By machine buffing the pores of the steel are actually smeared closed to some extent,,that's what gives machine buffing it's fast shine. But it traps the compound in there.

Any old surface has to be polished down to clean and what I call 'clear' steel surface. Old pits must be gone as the rust in them must be gone.
What ever the shine/brilliance you bring the steel back up to will be what the plating will be. Simple as that.
If you polish the steel back up to a 400grit finish,,that is what the plating will be,,a 400 shine. You can coax a little bit more shine out of the plating simply because of what it is,,a bright metal that reflects well. But the underlying polish is still 400 grit lines and you can't polish that any further unless you remove and get below the plating you just put over it.

It's not a simple business. Touchup is ever harder if total 100% results are expected.
Dark areas of touch up plating surrounded by bright areas of orig plating usually show that the touch up areas were not polished high enough and/or not clean enough for the plating to be done.

Like bluing, all Nickel is not the same. Nor is Gold or Silver.
Matching color is difficult.
Throw in 100yrs of oxidation & wear and there is a very slim chance a touch up will blend in and hide w/o being seen.

It can be done. It takes time and experience,( that's a nice word for failures that you worked on for nothing)
Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to think I had said or done something to tick you off!
The power source I've been using is 5v and 2.5a
The one that Caswell sells is 4.5v and 1.7a
I'm sure the voltage is OK, a half a volt is only a 10% increase. So maybe the current is too strong - almost 50% higher.

Maybe I'll try another that is a little lower amperage and see if that helps.

As for the stainless "wand" I chose that material because that is what Caswell sells with their kit - a wand made of stainless. I can try plain carbon steel and/or copper to see if anything else works better.

I can see what you're saying about the spots missing nickel having contamination. But what I don't know is what to do about it. I've got the whole gun frame & cylinder soaking in acetone, but still don't know how to get the polishing compound out of the pores of the metal. I was thinking of using a stiff brush and some spray brake cleaner to "blast" the surface. Any suggestions?
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Old 04-09-2020, 11:52 AM
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For cleaning, I'd start first with a hot water (NOT boiling) soak and scrub with TSP (TriSodium Phosphate)
It's an excellent cleaner for prepping metal for bluing or plating.
Cheap, about $3 for a 1# box.

One thing is that now you mostly find the box labled TSP-PF
PF = Phosphate Free
Gotta protect the environment

It seems to work pretty much the same when I use it, but I like the old stuff. simply labeled TSP
Both are still available.
The TSP is in a red labled box
TSP-PF is in a green labled box

Both made/marketed by Savogran and usually in the paint dept at places like Loews, HomeDepot. Or order it on line.

Just google 'TSP cleaner' and you'll get all kinds of info.

DON"T boil the soln,,that'll cause crazy ugly colors and coatings to appear on the steel.
Just hot water out of the tap, or if you do heat it up, keep it Max about 180*F.
It only takes a 2 or 3 tbs/ gallon water for this type of work. You can use more if you want to. I've found the weak soln works OK and you can put your hands in it to clean the parts and they still come out with all the fingers attached.

Scrubb the parts while in there with a tooth brush, one of the M16 cleaning brushes or even a bristle brush.
You don't want to scratch the polish, just get the crud out of it.

Rinse it off when you think your done.
Let it cool.
Then do the acetone soak or wipe down additionally.

Don't use common paper towels to wipe the acetone or anything onto the metal. Most all papertowels have softeners, some have soap, perfumes, some have ink from printed patterns. That all gets dissolved and can be left behind on the nice clean surfaces.
Those somewhat rough, plain brown paper towels that you find in public restrooms are actually great for this. Nothing in them.

Pieces of a white cotton t-shirt, white cotton gun cleaning patches that are sold as being clear of all contaminates are good.
Cotton can be good but some cosmetic use cotton again has 'stuff' in it.
Medical gauze wrap should be OK like you use for the wand but I've never used it.


Hope this helps!


Added,,I went and pulled the MC Bat charger out to see what it says:
Output: 6-12 VDC 1amp

Last edited by 2152hq; 04-09-2020 at 12:02 PM. Reason: added
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