38 S&W to 38 spl

[Igiveup]

Is it reasonably possible to get a M10 38 spl. cylinder and put it into a Victory Model 38 S&W? Probably would need a pre M10, same era cylinder as the Victory, align the cylinder for timing, etc.

[walnutred]

That happened quite a few times. however you would probably be better off just getting a used 38 Special. Any particular reason you want to try this?

[Hondo44]

Yes you can do that and it's not usually difficult but things to consider:

1. you're right about the same or similar era although not too critical
2. You want a cyl that includes the extractor star (can save extra fitting issues) and preferably one prior to 1959 that still has right hand threads so you can use your pre war extractor rod with the proper Barrel shaped knob to fit the notch under the barrel.
3. The barrel bore on your gun fits the larger 38 S&W bullet diameter. Unless you reload 38 Special with oversize bullets, accuracy will be compromised somewhat.

Now having said all of that, I must be honest that I agree with walnutred above and pose the following questions for consideration:

1. why change a collectible Victory model especially if otherwise in good shape or not otherwise modified?
2. why not be money ahead by selling the Victory and just get the gun you want; 38 M&P, pre Mode 10 or a Mod 10?
3. why not eliminate the hassle of searching for a cyl, worrying if it's usable, not worn out, and saving your labor/frustration dealing with a replacement?

Hope this helps, and let us know what you decide to do.

[Igiveup]

Well, I guess I was just wondering about one of the conversions where the cylinder was drilled to accommodate the 38 spl. The cases split upon firing or show enough damage that they are not reloadable, ammo for the 38 S&W is not very common and I just thought about it. I suppose the accuracy wouldn't be good unless one reloaded as said above by Hondo44. Thanks for the good answers and I will try not to "wonder" anymore.

[4barrel]

The throats in the 38 special should measure .357<mine do> and the 38 S&W shoots a .360 bullet like stated above. I guess you could have the throats bored-- so I could sell you a .361 --158 grain mold if you went that direction.

[walnutred]

Nothing wrong with your question. I was kinda hoping you had a Lend Lease and you were tired of buying 38 S&W to feed it as I have a spare 10-5. ;-)

[glowe]

Why don't you start buying and reloading 38 S&W?? It is a fine cartridge, with a heavy 146 grain bullet and speeds similar to standard 38 Special? Most of these were over-bored, but can still fire 38 S&W well.

Brass is readily available as well as commercial ammo during normal times.

[gwpercle]

So many Victory models were "rechambered" to 38 special after the war that a nice unaltered Victory in 38 S&W just might be worth a few bucks to a collector .
Gary

[LoboGunLeather]

Back in the 1960's there were thousands of Victory model .38 S&W revolvers from all over the UK re-imported to the US, and several dealers offered those after conversion to .38 Special. The problems associated with oversized bore/groove diameter and chamber dimensions not fully supporting .38 Special cases became widely known.

A quick review of my old Lyman manual shows the dimensions as follows:

.38 S&W: rim .440", case body .3865".
.38 Special: rim .440", case body .379".

Considerable variations in actual production revolvers are known to exist, and war time exigencies probably added to those variations (from the nominal standards).

The OP's approach using a .38 Special cylinder fitted to the revolver is probably much better than any re-chambering of the original cylinder. As noted by others, hand-loading with the larger diameter bullets would probably be the best method for making the proposed conversion work to reasonable expectations.

There is no overcoming the fact that any conversion is likely to damage the value of an otherwise complete and original Victory.

[glowe]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

So many Victory models were "rechambered" to 38 special after the war that a nice unaltered Victory in 38 S&W just might be worth a few bucks to a collector .
Gary

That is almost true. What was usually done was to cleanly ream the chambers to standard 38 Special length, but the gunsmiths reamed chambers to the original size of the 38 S&W boring, so 38 Special cases split often in many guns. I have owned a few of these years ago and found that the best solution for reloaders was shooting 38 S&W instead of 38 Special. Sure there was a jump in the cylinder, but they still shot better than those I tried 38 Special in.

As for shooting 38 Special, I know that some shooters report good accuracy with this caliber in their Victory and British Service revolvers, but not me. I recall shooting and often getting keyholed targets. I have also shot them into snow banks with one revolver and recovering the bullet that was free of any rifling marks. On the extreme side, bullets set into commercial and/or reloaded cases often end up with a .355" or smaller bullet and some 38 S&W barrels have measured .365" and larger, so enough difference to let a hard bullet slide right down the barrel without engaging.

Before committing to dumping the original cylinder, buy a box of 38 S&W. If you like shooting them, buy a $25 set of dies and do some experimenting until you get the power you want. Remember that the British stuffed a 200 grain bullet into their 38 S&W chambers.

[old tanker]

Originally Posted by glowe

Remember that the British stuffed a 200 grain bullet into their 38 S&W chambers.

The "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" stamp on the top strap indicates it was a Lend-Lease gun. It went through FTR at Lithgow in 1954. An NEI #169a bullet over 2.0 grains of Bullseye, duplicates the service load, 200 grain bullet at 650 fps. At 25 yards slow fire it groups pretty well, if a tad high.

The British seemed to have a knack for designing bullets that yawed quickly when they hit. I suspect that one of those would equal the old time Super Police loads.

With a stash of brass from Starline, I'll not feel any urge to convert this old warhorse to .38 Long Colt made longer any time soon.

[WR Moore]

I once saw a Victory that had been converted to .38 Spl post war by one of the better UK gun firms and re-proofed for the new caliber. Excellent workmanship, but they'd just used a .38 Spl reamer in the chambers. Shot well, but resizing the cases would have been real work. I'm in the sell/buy what you want crowd.

While some have commented upon bore/groove specs, back in the last century Remington got out of the component business (first time) and I bought several thousand 158 gr LRN at something like $15/1000. I checked diameter and they were 0.360 with a very slight hollow base-almost a dimple. Shot excellently in anything vaguely .38.

At least with handgun cartridges, the Brits used to emphasize "dwell". This is the time the bullet spends traveling through the target. They believed that a greater dwell allowed the bullet to have a greater effect upon the target. Thus the comparatively heavy for caliber bullets and low muzzle velocities.

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by WR Moore

I once saw a Victory that had been converted to .38 Spl post war by one of the better UK gun firms and re-proofed for the new caliber. Excellent workmanship, but they'd just used a .38 Spl reamer in the chambers. Shot well, but resizing the cases would have been real work.

my Cogswell + Harrison cylinder conversion works perfectly with .38 special - never in decades of use have I had a split case or had any problem with case life or resizing them - I did have to install a .38 special barrel to achieve accuracy - when reloading the .38 S&W cases I size the cast bullets at .358 - surprisingly .38 spec. using .3.5 grains of red dot shoot to same point of impact as .38 S&W using 2.3 grains of red dot at 25 yds. using 158 gr. SWC -

[murf205]

Igiveup, there is some good advice in these subsequent post from the original one. You will be missing out on a fun caliber if you alter a 38S&W. I have one built in 1966 and I had a bullet mold from Accurate molds that dropped bullets at a perfect .361 dia. I bought 2 boxes of factory round nose lead rounds when I bought the gun and it leaded the barrel something awful and was none to accurate. I pulled a couple of the bullets and sure enough, they mic'ed .357. My barrel is a .360 with .360 cylinder throats. A starting charge of Green Dot powder and presto- no leading and the little gun is a tack driver. Accurate Molds will make a mold in the diameter you want and Toms work is perfect. You will love that 38S&W once you get the right ammo in it. This is just my advice and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[schutzen-jager]

the .38 S&W was the preferred premier cartridge for pistol target shooters in the late 1800's to early 1900's -

[murphydog]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

my Cogswell + Harrison cylinder conversion works perfectly with .38 special - never in decades of use have I had a split case or had any problem with case life or resizing them - I did have to install a .38 special barrel to achieve accuracy - when reloading the .38 S&W cases I size the cast bullets at .358 - surprisingly .38 spec. using .3.5 grains of red dot shoot to same point of impact as .38 S&W using 2.3 grains of red dot at 25 yds. using 158 gr. SWC -

I have seen the (rare) example of an ex-38/200 BSR converted to fire .38 Special not only by reaming the charge holes to proper length, but also with sleeving them to proper diameter. Obviously this would have been more time-consuming to do with hundreds of thousands of revolvers so most conversions took the easy way out. Perhaps yours was one of the lucky ones.

[schutzen-jager]

mine is reamed only + will except .38S&W + .38 special cartridges -

[Screwball]

I wouldn’t go out of my way to convert a Victory in .38 S&W to .38 Special by swapping cylinders... especially when you can find actual .38 Special revolvers out there pretty regularly (they are barreled “correctly”). Just put the money from selling the Victory towards one of those... and if it is unmolested, might be a decent amount of change to fund a better purchase.

Only situation where I’d be arguing for a converted Victory is where I was a few months back; wanting an Oswald gun. But even still, you likely wouldn’t be swapping cylinders to yield that.

[Targets Guy]

Originally Posted by Igiveup

Well, I guess I was just wondering about one of the conversions where the cylinder was drilled to accommodate the 38 spl. The cases split upon firing or show enough damage that they are not reloadable, ammo for the 38 S&W is not very common and I just thought about it. I suppose the accuracy wouldn't be good unless one reloaded as said above by Hondo44. Thanks for the good answers and I will try not to "wonder" anymore.

That happened to me. I got a .38 special which had been converted from a .38SW. The cases split when firing .38 specials. When I fired the .38SW lead was shaved off of the bullets. I bought a .38SW Victory barrel and put it on the revolver. Problem solved. Handles my .38SW like a champ.

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[GypsmJim]

My Victory was a Lend Lease that was reamed to 38 Spl.

When I first got it I set aside 100 once fired 38 Specials. They all fit in the chambers. Then I loaded them without resizing, just crimping the bullets in place with a light load.

After "fire forming" the brass I now reload by neck sizing only. My "Victory Specials" don't crack and the accuracy is acceptable. Not shootin a K38, but "acceptable".

[4barrel]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

mine is reamed only + will except .38S&W + .38 special cartridges -

I have an oversize Lyman mold that kicks out a .360 and with out resizing it works without leading in 38-357. Are you using a .360 bullet? Are you using 38 S@W brass?

[Buick]

Try loading some heavy .38 S&W rounds. They are nothing to sneeze at. I have about 70 rounds of original British military and they hit hard.

Edit: They are actually Canadian military rounds.

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by 4barrel

I have an oversize Lyman mold that kicks out a .360 and with out resizing it works without leading in 38-357. Are you using a .360 bullet? Are you using 38 S@W brass?

unsized 158gr. swc cast in Lee mold + tumble lube - like I stated in earlier post I have installed a .38 special barrel - I use the same bullets in .38S&W cases - never had a sign of any leading with either -

[WR Moore]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

my Cogswell + Harrison cylinder conversion works perfectly with .38 special - never in decades of use have I had a split case or had any problem with case life or resizing them

Egad, I do believe they were the ones who did the conversion I saw.

[schutzen-jager]

I really think that all the problems with the conversions are due to sloppy workmanship by U.S. importers going for the fast dollar - all the English conversions had to be proof tested for .38 special before leaving the country - no one had any control over quality of the ones done here -

[Igiveup]

A lot of good information, thank you. My thoughts started with a Cogswell & Harrison conversion that splits around forty percent of the cases. I got it to have an example, not necessarily for shooting, but had to try. I have a fondness for the Victory revolvers, in both calibers. I'll stick with the ammo they were intended and think I might get dies for the 38 S&W, as ammo isn't very popular. I did get a box at the Reno, NV. gunshow a couple weeks ago. Again, thank you for all the input.

[walnutred]

When It comes to "manufacturing tolerances" you might be surprised how many times 38 S&W will chamber and fire in old 38 Special revolvers. I once owned a US purchase Victory still in 38 Special. Out of curiosity I checked and half of the chambers would accept 38 S&W and half would not. Pre war you will also often find as great a variation in bore diameter between Colt and S&W of the same caliber as you will on paper between 38 S&W and 38 Special.

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by walnutred

When It comes to "manufacturing tolerances" you might be surprised how many times 38 S&W will chamber and fire in old 38 Special revolvers. I once owned a US purchase Victory still in 38 Special. Out of curiosity I checked and half of the chambers would accept 38 S&W and half would not. Pre war you will also often find as great a variation in bore diameter between Colt and S&W of the same caliber as you will on paper between 38 S&W and 38 Special.

back in the 70's one local PD issued model 19's in .357 mag. - many of them would chamber + fire the .38S&W with no problems -