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Old 06-01-2020, 06:28 PM
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Default finished barreling the J&G model 10's

Here are the barreled barrel-less model 10's I got from J&G
sales.

I had a 4" barrel and one of this Forum's members was gracious
enough to sell me a couple 2" barrels. It took me 2 times to get
him the check because the first time I didn't sign it.

My third gun showed up on 30 May 20 and I barreled the 2 guns
that needed them. I shot them and after tweaking one to get it
to top dead center so it wouldn't shoot a foot right at 30 yards,
all three are good to go.

I don't have a planishing hammer like Steelslaver suggested but
using a 4 ounce ball peen I minimized Century International's
obtrusive lazer ingraved importers mark.

The picture of the revolver in the vice shows a way I found to
keep me from filing the top strap as I adjusted a cylinder gap.
I cut a piece of 1/2 inch hard copper tube and after sawing it
and tapping it out flat it acts quite well as a file stop. I know
real gunsmiths probably have a much better way to do it.

The top gun has a replacement grip panel that I "think" is a
10-5 grip. I'm going to buy good years for it.

All I can say is this has been a lot of fun. I wouldn't mind going
to the school of trades on Hoyt St in Denver to learn how to do
this for real. But if I did, that would mean going behind the lines.

I can't do that any more....
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:17 PM
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Nice job, great result!
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:24 PM
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The cylinder barrel gap is usually adjusted with a file with a safe edge.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:14 PM
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I am far from expert on the subject, but believe the importer's mark has the same restrictions to alteration as the original serial number. I don't know what you did to minimize it, but it sounds like an alteration to me.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Cop View Post
The cylinder barrel gap is usually adjusted with a file with a safe edge.
I use the Brownells endface and chamfer cutters.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrmike View Post
I am far from expert on the subject, but believe the importer's mark has the same restrictions to alteration as the original serial number. I don't know what you did to minimize it, but it sounds like an alteration to me.
I have read the GCA of 68 and checked around on the BATF site quite a bit, altering the serial number is a no no, The importers stamping must be there to IMPORT, there is nothing sayin that of even the original manufactures markings can not be removed.

If you wanted to sand off the S&W logo, that is legal. Just as you the owner are not an importer and not going to import there is no rule about removal of importt marks. Interestingly enough only serial numbers that I can find anywhere
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:22 PM
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Wonderful! I myself have for a number of years wanted to try such a idea. I've thought it would be fun to take a 28 and use it to build a .40/10mm. Do believe it'd be fun. Love to read such posts as this. Keeps me thinking. Sincerely. bruce.
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:36 AM
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Here's a poor cell phone pic of the "minimized" import mark. By
planishing it, the mark feels like a normal roll mark instead of
a bunch of lazer craters. Also in the very top of the pic you see
the JP 741 police stamp.

It wasn't defaced, just smoothed.
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucev View Post
Wonderful! I myself have for a number of years wanted to try such a idea. I've thought it would be fun to take a 28 and use it to build a .40/10mm. Do believe it'd be fun. Love to read such posts as this. Keeps me thinking. Sincerely. bruce.
Thing about starting with a 28-2 or earlier cylinder to make a 10mm (or a 45acp) is you would have to mill off quite a bit from rear of cylinder, .060 for the recesses then another .040 for the clips. Probably work though. When you cut a 45 colt cylinder so it will use full moons the extractor star arms get a bit on the thin side.
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
Here's a poor cell phone pic of the "minimized" import mark. By
planishing it, the mark feels like a normal roll mark instead of
a bunch of lazer craters. Also in the very top of the pic you see
the JP 741 police stamp.

It wasn't defaced, just smoothed.
Regarding importer marks. Years ago I purchased a nice Nickle 5" barrel 27-2 from someone in Canada. Well, I had no idea what was in store for me as far as getting it into the states! It went to a gathering point somewhere in Western Canada and when enough were collected to make the trip worthwhile my gun together with others was shipped to an FFL that had an importer license-Leroy's Big Valley Guns if I remember correctly. After around 6 months, I got the gun and found a tiny import mark inside the crane right above the model # stamping that simply said "Leroy's" Wonderful way to comply with the law and not really deface a nice collectable revolver.
Full disclosure-had I known all of this would be happening, I would never have gone through the transaction. I was truly lucky in that if the guy in Canada had wanted to he could have taken my money and there wouldn't have been a thing I could do about it. I think someone from the forum bought it (with full disclosure of the import mark)down the line when I got rid of my 27's
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:44 PM
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On the importers marks I wrote the BATF for clarification.

Response
This is in response to your Email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB), inquiring about the removal of an importers mark on a firearm. Specifically, you wish to know if you may lawfully remove the importers markings.



The Gun Control Act (GCA) 18 U.S.C. § 922(k). states the following:



“It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the

importer’s or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.”



As stated above it is unlawful to remove the serial number from a commercially produced or imported firearm. However, it is not unlawful to remove the other manufacturer or importer applied markings (make, model, caliber designation, import mark etc.) from a commercially produced or imported firearm. However, removal of any markings would adversely affect the ability to identify a firearm, trace its origin should it be used in a crime, or return it to its owner if it is stolen and recovered. Therefore, we strongly discourage the removal of any manufacturer or importer applied markings.



We thank you for your inquiry and trust that this has been responsive.



Michael S Knapp

Firearms Enforcement Specialist

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Firearms and Explosives Industry Division

Firearms Industry Programs Branch

Discouraged but, not illegal.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrmike View Post
I am far from expert on the subject, but believe the importer's mark has the same restrictions to alteration as the original serial number. I don't know what you did to minimize it, but it sounds like an alteration to me.
Taken from here, page 212:https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...rtI-chap44.pdf

"(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

Doesn't it feel GOOD to bring one, or more, back to life? Over the years, I have re-habbed two barreled M13 frames and two barreled 1917s. There is a lot of enjoyment and pride knowing that you are able to do just that. Ask fellow forum member tennexplorer about it.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:05 PM
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Muley Gil,

tennexplorer was the guy I got the 2" barrels from. Real nice and
very patient with me. I'm very grateful he took the time to help
me. A lot of good folks on this site and he's right at the top of the
list.
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Old 06-04-2020, 01:51 AM
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I was happy to help out. You do not know how hard it was to not buy a couple of those barrel-less Model 10's. But I have far too many projects in progress already.


Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
Muley Gil,

tennexplorer was the guy I got the 2" barrels from. Real nice and
very patient with me. I'm very grateful he took the time to help
me. A lot of good folks on this site and he's right at the top of the
list.
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:31 PM
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I almost grabbed one myself, but was afraid I'd never find a barrel. Instead I picked up a Police Trade In Pencil Barrel 10. I'm going to try to round butt it, trim the hammer, and cut the barrel to 3".
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Old 06-07-2020, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
Muley Gil,

tennexplorer was the guy I got the 2" barrels from. Real nice and
very patient with me.
I'm very grateful he took the time to help
me. A lot of good folks on this site and he's right at the top of the
list.
Yeah, he is a good guy. He even puts up with ME!
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Old 06-07-2020, 06:40 PM
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Many States have laws that prohibit the removal,alteration,ect of any /or some of a firearms Manufacturers markings like the Model, Make, Mfg'r address, caliber, ect.

All of the States copy the ser# removal,obliteration,ect provision as in the Fed Reg then Some go on to add the prohibition of removing other Mfg'rs markings.

Indiana for example prohibits removal of any Mfg markings on a handgun(Felony)
Kansas prohibits removal/obliteration/ect of mfgr markings on any firearm (felony)
Maine prohibits any other mfg'rs distinguishing identification number, mark or symbol upon any firearm from being altered, removed or obliterated.
The list goes on...

A few States have no addition rule other than the Ser# removal.

I've even run acrossed a couple States that prohibit removing a mfg'rs marking, but then go on to say it's OK to do so if it's in the course of doing a repair that the marking will be removed or the part it's on replaced. But not if it's the Ser#..
Gov'ment for ya..

Import Markings are not Mfg'rs markings.
But you'd think they would be off limits as far as removal being ATF demanded and all., but apparently not. Nothing in the laws that I've ever seen. Steelslaver's letter says not, (but they'd really appreciate if you didn't remove them!)
They are not just imprinted on the 'frame',,sometimes the bbl or slide. Either of the latter parts easily changed & legally w/o paperwork or license.

There's an industry spec for the marking now. So many .000 tall letters, ect. It didn't used to be that way and some of the import marks were nearly microscopic in size which made it nice.
Now it's mostly Dot-Matrix BillBoard style. Some sort of laser used to do it I suppose as they seem to be 'burned' deep into the metal.
Probably automated and very fast.
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Old 06-10-2020, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Regarding importer marks. Years ago I purchased a nice Nickle 5" barrel 27-2 from someone in Canada. Well, I had no idea what was in store for me as far as getting it into the states! It went to a gathering point somewhere in Western Canada and when enough were collected to make the trip worthwhile my gun together with others was shipped to an FFL that had an importer license-Leroy's Big Valley Guns if I remember correctly. After around 6 months, I got the gun and found a tiny import mark inside the crane right above the model # stamping that simply said "Leroy's" Wonderful way to comply with the law and not really deface a nice collectable revolver.
Full disclosure-had I known all of this would be happening, I would never have gone through the transaction. I was truly lucky in that if the guy in Canada had wanted to he could have taken my money and there wouldn't have been a thing I could do about it. I think someone from the forum bought it (with full disclosure of the import mark)down the line when I got rid of my 27's
I can remember when CZ75s were all the rage with IPSC shooters and I imported one from Canada. Yes awful lot of red tape involved in this!
Steve
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Old 06-10-2020, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennexplorer View Post
I was happy to help out. You do not know how hard it was to not buy a couple of those barrel-less Model 10's. But I have far too many projects in progress already.
I don't suppose you have another of those 2" barrels you'd like to dispose of do you sir?
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Old 06-11-2020, 02:34 PM
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Where are the barrels from these revolvers?

You would think Century would have released them to the surplus market just like they did the frames.

The reason they are frames only is because ATF will not allow the import of revolvers with barrels less than 3 inches into the country as the are considered "non-Sporting".

But you would have thought Century would have just unscrewed the barrels and had them on sale for people wishing to restore them.

Or unscrewed them and wired them to the trigger guard for immediate re-installation after clearing customs.
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bighunt View Post
Where are the barrels from these revolvers?

You would think Century would have released them to the surplus market just like they did the frames.

The reason they are frames only is because ATF will not allow the import of revolvers with barrels less than 3 inches into the country as the are considered "non-Sporting".

But you would have thought Century would have just unscrewed the barrels and had them on sale for people wishing to restore them.

Or unscrewed them and wired them to the trigger guard for immediate re-installation after clearing customs.
What leads you to believe these were imported by Century? I know of a company in Los Vegas that sells chopped guns for the parts, all the time.
Steve
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:26 PM
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I "assumed" they couldn't import the barrels because of
the 13 July 05 letter:
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
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I "assumed" they couldn't import the barrels because of
the 13 July 05 letter:
Again what leads you to believe they were imported? Have I missed something in this thread?
Steve
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:32 PM
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What leads you to believe these were imported by Century? I know of a company in Los Vegas that sells chopped guns for the parts, all the time.
Steve
Because they are import marked. If they had never left the country there would be no need for Century Arms to apply their name to the bottom of the trigger guards.
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
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I "assumed" they couldn't import the barrels because of
the 13 July 05 letter:
That letter also references frames and receivers which I would think would fall under the same prohibition, unless they argue they could be reconfigured into a longer barreled sporting configuration.
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:08 PM
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ATF form 4590, Factoring Criteria for Weapons has barrel length
for a revolver to be a minimum of 3". I "think" this was used to
give the justification of not allowing the barrels to be reimported.

Since you can't import a revolver with a barrel less than 3", the
barrels can't be imported because they are less than 3". That's
why the model 10-5's were allowed in because they had 4" barrels.
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Old 06-18-2020, 05:07 PM
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Anyone have any more extra 2" barrels they would be willing to part with?

I just got in one of these frames myself and it looks pretty good from the pics my dealer sent me.

I have an e-mail in to Century Arms surplus department to see if they were able to get these barrels released from their Bonded Customs Warehouse, or if they had to destroy them.
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