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Old 06-02-2020, 01:48 PM
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So as the thread title says, I bought a set of pin gauges, very enlightening experience.
I own more than a few 38 Special and 357 Magnums made by S&W.
Sadly, only two of mine passed my test.
One was my 1937 Registered Magnum, all cylinders would take a 358, none would take a 359 and they were very even, as far as the depth the pin gauge would go in.
Same thing with my early 50's 38/44 HD, all my other more modern guns needed to have a date with my new Dave Manson reamer.
The absolute worse of the bunch was my 1980's, 8-3/8" 686 Silhouette gun, with the adjustable front sight.
It had cylinder holes as small as a very tight 355, I had to switch to a 354 pilot to ream that cylinder hole.
All of my Colts I have checked out, were perfect,I have probabaly missed some buried deep in a safe but any I shoot regular were great, the same thing with my Dan Wessons.My Rugers were all over the place, the ones I have purchased new in last couple of years were great, but the 38/40 cylinder on my Buckeye Special from 1989 is atrocious at 395 when it should be 400-with 40125 ideal according to Manson, I have a call into Rugers customer service hoping they will fix that one as reamers are expensive and all my other 10MM revolvers are acceptable if not ideal.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:20 PM
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I can’t speak to your particular gun dimensions but I can comment on chamber and barrel dimension inconsistencies. Tooling used to cut chambers wear/smaller after a while resulting in tighter ID dimensions. Years ago competition shooters and varmint hunters requested barrels reamed at the end of tooling life. I’ve got two TC barrels that were cut literally just before tooling change out. One is a 22 Hornet and it the most accurate Hornet barrel I’ve ever owned. The other contributing factor is machinery wear which is harder to correct for many production shops. Another factor that must be understood is that with the use of CNC machining centers many manufacturers have reduced full QA check points and rely on spot inspections only. It’s wishful thinking supported by the accounting department who preaches less labor more automation. And finally I’ll bet your chambers fall within SAAMI specs which are sloppy at best.

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Old 06-02-2020, 05:34 PM
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I purchased a set of pin guages to head space FALs and now use them on most revolvers.
Steve
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:11 PM
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I spent a lot of time, researching and reading on topic before jumping in.
one thing that really stuck in my head was that it is not only what they are as far as a dimension but how many different dimensions they are !!
The only few that are really RIGHT, are also consistent across all the cylinder holes, whilst others are all over the map.
Since these are Sammi spec reamers, I do not believe there can be any harm in making them all consistent across the cylinder.
I believe the forging cone will shape them into the bore anyway.
Most of the 38 calibers were not really far off, but were inconsistent.
The 22 LR Cylinders, now that is another story onto itself!!
For another post !!
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:37 PM
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Most people assume that whatever comes out of the factory is exactly as it should be. They have no way to tell if it is or isn't.

When you start actually doing precision measurements, you start finding all manner of things that aren't right. This is the physical reality of mass (mess) production. Things don't always get seated in the jig correctly, tools wear out, people make mistakes, inspectors miss things, etc. These details matter when it comes to making a quality gun that is accurate and performs well.
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PattonTime View Post
My Rugers were all over the place, the ones I have purchased new in last couple of years were great, but the 38/40 cylinder on my Buckeye Special from 1989 is atrocious at 395 when it should be 400-with 40125 ideal according to Manson, I have a call into Rugers customer service hoping they will fix that one as reamers are expensive and all my other 10MM revolvers are acceptable if not ideal.
Those 44-40 Buckeye Blackhawks and also the 44-40 limited edition Vaqueros got an awful reputation for poor accuracy, and well deserved, and you just hit the nail on the head for the reason.

Ruger took back and replaced a pile of cyls to correct, no questions asked. Later production was corrected and shot well.

However the problem these days is that they haven't produced any 44-40s for many years. So if they don't have a cyl, they'll offer you a good deal on a new gun in another cal. They won't re-ream the throats. I hope I'm wrong but let us know what they tell you.

As opposed to buying a reamer, there's a few guys on the Ruger forum that specialize in fixing ruger cyl throats, at very reasonable cost.

Start a thread here: RugerForum.com • View forum - Ruger-Smithing
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Old 06-03-2020, 09:23 AM
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I am not doubting your finding in the least, but I would be curious to know the following just for S&G's:

1) When specifically were the affected Smith's & Ruger's made?

2) Brand & where were the Pin Gauges made?

3) Did you physically check the Pin Gauges with a high quality Micrometer?

Also someone mentioned above that during a run of manufacturing, cutting tools wear. If left unchecked and unchanged too long, spec's. do change for the worse. Not just a gun manufacturing problem - but in all manufacturing. That said, if all your guns that fall out of spec. but still perform properly, I doubt the manufacturer's will be willing to do much and you actually might be better off leaving things alone as long as functioning is OK. Sometimes the "fix" is worse than the fault.
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Old 06-03-2020, 09:46 AM
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I can tell you that S&W, Ruger, etc etc will not respond to cylinder or bore complaints if they fall within SAAMI specs. When Ruger was first hit with a bunch of Cowboy shooters claiming their Vaqueros had undersize chamber throats they answered by saying they were within SAAMI spec. But Ruger on the other hand likes to keep their customers and end users happy and Cowboy shooting represented a very large growing market so Ruger took those revolvers back and opened the throats. They never posted a recall so many are still out there but they did respond to those who asked. It was years ago so I don’t recall much detail on which calibers and which guns but Hamilton Bowen told me about this since he was honing Ruger cylinders around the clock at the time. So as Chief says you may be better off shooting your gun if it performs to your standards.

Rick
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:05 AM
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Patton Time: I commend you on your search and progress in uniformity of your revolvers. It does not pay if your goal is the utmost in accuracy and reliability to accept as perfect ANY manufactured firearm. Top quality gauges and micrometers are a basic must. Many are slow to grasp the fact that revolvers are much more complex in manufacturing and operational design than semi-autos. The variances in measurements exhibited by the many revolvers that have gone across my workbench while I was a practicing gunsmith was a continuing source of aggravation. Plus and Minus measurement are called "Tolerances" in the manufacturing world. If your revolver catches some parts that are on the extremes of the + - measurements all sorts of anomalies can develop. I as most revolver smiths could write a multi page list of those anomalies.

Don't let anyone dissuade you from uniforming everything that is possible on your revolvers. PM me a mailing address and I will mail you my near new 10 mm reamer. Use it carefully and return it in a reasonable time is all that I ask.
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:14 AM
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I shoot lead 99% of the time out of my 686's recent mfg guns.The cylinder throats were a tight .357 had them opened up to .3585.It stopped the mild leading and helped group size.I used the guy on cast boolits that many people recommend.First class work and 1 week turnaround.
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Cholla View Post
Top quality gauges and micrometers are a basic must.
The secret to micrometers or any guaging tool isn't owning the best but, knowing the feel of a micron or ten thousands of an inch. They're not C clamps.
Steve
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:40 PM
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And my thought is I bet if you check any of the current or semi current 'target' or Performance series guns that they too will be out of tolerance. Back a while ago I said you are best to get the base gun and take it to reputable machinist/gunsmith and make it what it was intended to be, give it to someone who really cares now about 'craftmanship'!
Sorry to hear of your finding but it comes as no surprise. I bet if you put it to a S&W model 52 you would need then to check the real quality of your pin gauges
Karl
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:53 PM
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As a final note, I have sent my 500 Magnum S&W cylinder and 41 Magnum
Ruger Redhawk cylinder to gentlemen previously mentioned, having only one gun in each caliber, didn’t make sense to buy custom throating readers , as Manson does not stock those sizes. The 500 in particular was very undersized. I have checked my Chinese made pin gauges with several different micrometers, both mine and borrowed could find no variance whatsoever so I believe all is good. Guns all shoot great, biggest difference I can find is less to none on the mysterious “flyer” front.
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PattonTime View Post
I have sent my 500 Magnum S&W cylinder and 41 Magnum...
The 500 in particular was very undersized.
What were the throat sizes?

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Old 06-30-2020, 10:49 AM
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500 had throats as small as 498, I shoot light hand loads mostly, as it’s a 4” Gun.
Point being hot factory loads would have had to raise the pressures some with such undersized throats. I have to think the throats being all one size alone is a big improvement. Ruger was at 399.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:23 AM
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Where did you buy your pin gage set?
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:36 AM
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Kind of wish I hadn't read this thread. I have several .38/.357 S&W and a couple Colts, all shoot good, very little leading if any. Now I may have to do something about it. The only 2 revolvers I've ever owned that were inaccurate and leaded badly had over sized throats........ I don't know what to think.
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:24 PM
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I bought a set of the pin gauges from an ebay seller. They range from .250" to .500 inches and are -.0003 which means for example a gauge that is labeled .357" actually measures .3567" as you can't stick a .357" pin gauge in a chamber that measures .357". And they are close enough in tolerance for matching the throat sizes to bullet size. They came in a wooden case which weighs a ton. I think I paid about $60 or $65.

I later added some in .22 caliber from McMaster Carr ranging from .222" to .227" to gauge various .22 LR and .22 WMR throats, also in -.0003 size.
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:42 PM
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Pin gages, or gage pins, same thing, come in + or - sets. They are normally + or - .0002 over or under nominal. They are THE way to accurately measure holes, short of spending huge money for special gages.

As Walter Rego says, you can't stick a .357 pin gage in a .357 hole. Size to size is a press fit. If you did press it in there, you would be hard (or maybe lightly) pressed to get it back out. Like all measuring tools, there are metric sets as well. Individual pins may be bought to do a small range of sizes or to replace ones lost from a set.

The cheap sets on eBay, Amazon, Shars, etc. are plenty good enough for gun measuring.
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Old 07-02-2020, 10:39 PM
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I've been interested in buying pin gauges for a long while. Armed with the information from Protocol Design and others, I just ordered a set from Amazon .250 to .500. Should cover my needs! Thanks all
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Old 07-04-2020, 09:55 AM
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I've contemplated buying some pin gauges myself, but those few times when I've felt compelled to measure a chamber throat I just removed the cylinder and used the lead slug/micrometer method. I certainly would not criticize anyone for using pin gauges, though.
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Old 07-04-2020, 10:09 AM
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If you want to see if your revolver barrel has a constriction where it threads into the frame, you can measure that with gage pins, too. This is one of the major causes of leading and not shooting a group.

Find the biggest pin that will slide in the muzzle and see if it will go all the way through. If not, try the next smaller one. If not, try the next smaller one, etc., until one goes out the forcing cone. The difference between the muzzle one and the forcing cone one is the amount of constriction in the barrel.

If you have a gun with this problem, it can be fixed by removing the barrel and turning the shoulder where it meets the frame back a thou. or two so it doesn't have as much of a "crush fit" when you tighten the barrel to the frame. Looking from the rear like you would be when shooting, the front sight should not be to the right more than about 1 o'clock when hand tightened. When you take the barrel off, it should spring back to straight. This can be confirmed with gage pins, the same as with it on the gun.
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