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Old 06-26-2020, 12:54 AM
unclerandy unclerandy is offline
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Default S&W Hammer Camming Forward Problem 586-8

This is my cousin shooting his S&W 586. There is a problem with the trigger/hammer. You can see in the second trigger pull the cylinder turns but the hammer camms forward. I've never seen anything like this before. I shot it also and it happened many times. Neither one of us short stroked it. I even removed my finger completely out of the trigger guard to make sure after every shot and it still did it. The gun has not been modified in any way and only has a couple hundred rounds through it. About 2-3 years old. Does anyone have any ideas on what is wrong?

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Old 06-26-2020, 06:59 AM
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That's a new one on me. Folks will be along who can help you. BTW, welcome to the forum from North Dakota
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Old 06-26-2020, 09:08 AM
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It looks like the double action sear is sticking sometimes. Might just need a drop of oil down the front of the hammer.
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:04 AM
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Didn't you hear.....that's the new S&W "safety" - only shoots sometimes - you guess when. LOL!!

I know.... it's not really funny when it happens to you, but I just couldn't resist. Forgive me.

I'm guessing something has either broken or has been Bubba'd. Without it in front of me apart on a bench, I won't guess, but needs immediate attention right away. Contact S&W for a call tag today.
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:01 AM
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Default Start with the obvious before making yourself crazy!

After 2-3 years of sitting the original lubrication may have become a "plasticized" mess. Has it ever been detail cleaned?

Don't attempt this unless you are completely comfortable disassembling the S&W revolver. In the mean time you may have success loosening this up by using a "gun scrubber" type of aerosol. Take the grips off first! Use it like a pressure washer and really flush things out. Let it dry and then lube using "copious" amounts of thin (Think CLP or transmission fluid) to lube and continue flushing out the "smuts"!

I'm a heavy use revolver shooter (competition) and after cleaning and prior to any range time I apply about 6-8 drops of ATF to any area the rotates or slides!

Enjoy this fine example of S&W artistry!

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Old 06-26-2020, 11:11 AM
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You don't mention how long the gun has been in service, or whether your cousin is the original owner.

It appears that the double action sear is not resetting for some reason. This DA sear "re-set" occurs right at the end of the trigger return. The sear spring or sear may be compromised in some way or be sticking, the sear itself may not have been fit correctly when initially installed, or perhaps it's related to the rebound slide spring. A lighter rebound spring can cause this. There are other possibilities, but these would be the most common contributors.

If you are able to do so, I would suggest a good cleaning, inspection and re-lubrication of the internals. If the rebound slide spring has been altered or replaced with an aftermarket one, replacement of the spring with an OEM one may solve the problem.

As others have suggested, since it's under warranty, a return to Smith and Wesson Customer Service may be the best alternative.
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:14 AM
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I don't have a clue whats wrong but your video was awesome and what a great way to demonstrate the problem.

Well done!

Doug
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:51 AM
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My cousin is the first owner and only owner. The gun was bought new about two years ago. I personally took the gun apart and cleaned it thoroughly. It wasn't very dirty when he left it with me but way over lubricated. I cleaned it and lightly oiled appropriately. All factory parts nothing modified. It will go back to S&W but I really really want to know whats causing this. I've been shooting and "gunsmithing" for 40 years and I've never seen/felt this type of malfunction. While frustrated I'm absolutely fascinated by it and want to understand exactly how its happening.
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:52 AM
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I don't have a clue whats wrong but your video was awesome and what a great way to demonstrate the problem.

Well done!

Doug
Thank you, I was glad that I captured it happening.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:28 PM
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If you cycle the action very slowly, (with the sideplate on) at the end of the trigger return you will, or should, hear two clicks. One click will be what's called the "hook" at the front of the of the trigger passing fully over the bevel on the cylinder stop. You should see the top or "ball" of the cylinder stop snap to the rear as this click is heard.
The other click you should hear is the sear resetting. sometimes these two distinct clicks happen at the same time, so you can't hear them separately. Usually though, there are two very distinct clicks, with the sear click happening immediately after the cylinder stop has re-set.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:38 PM
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If you cycle the action very slowly, (with the sideplate on) at the end of the trigger return you will, or should, hear two clicks. One click will be what's called the "hook" at the front of the of the trigger passing fully over the bevel on the cylinder stop. You should see the top or "ball" of the cylinder stop snap to the rear as this click is heard.
The other click you should hear is the sear resetting. sometimes these two distinct clicks happen at the same time, so you can't hear them separately. Usually though, there are two very distinct clicks, with the sear click happening immediately after the cylinder stop has re-set.
Thanks, I'll have him check this.
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:41 PM
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This is a de-milled no dash 686, but the same principle applies. Slow motion of internals during trigger return. Watch closely as the trigger hook passes over the bevel on the cylinder stop and the stop resets. (moves backward)

Then, as the trigger moves a bit more forward, the DA sear re-sets.
If his sear is not resetting, during the next trigger pull, the trigger passes by the DA sear, and the hammer is not raised. As you observed, the hammer "cams forward" because the rebound slide containing the hammer seat has moved back, allowing the hammer to move forward as this important safety obstruction has been temporarily removed.


Iím not getting any motion with your attachment.
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Old 06-26-2020, 03:30 PM
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Anyone else having issues opening the video? If so, I'll take it down.

Clicking on the photo should re-direct you to Flickr. Thanks
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:06 PM
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Not working for me, either.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:18 PM
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OK thanks, I'll take it down. I have no idea how to post videos. It is an MP4 file. I thought clicking on the photo would redirect you to Flickr.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:22 PM
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Anyone else having issues opening the video? If so, I'll take it down.

Clicking on the photo should re-direct you to Flickr. Thanks
It does redirect but thereís no motion. I would really love if you can get it to work or even pm a link to me a working version. Thanks for your input!
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:24 PM
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It's in slow motion. (very slow) So there's no motion when you click on the arrow in Flickr ??
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:28 PM
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It's in slow motion. (very slow) So there's no motion when you click on the arrow in Flickr ??
There isnít an arrow. If you look at the Flickr url it shows jpg at the end of it..
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:41 PM
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I'm not sure I'm permitted to show a Youtube video link here or not.....or if it will work. Be advised that the video runs in slow motion, (very slow) and shows just the end of the trigger recovery cycle. Wait for it, or fast forward to about 0:55.

It's a de-milled 686 frame and internals........


YouTube
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:47 PM
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The you tube one is working for me. The main actions you're looking for are from about 0:55 to about 1:10.
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:44 PM
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I'm not sure I'm permitted to show a Youtube video link here or not.....or if it will work. Be advised that the video runs in slow motion, (very slow) and shows just the end of the trigger recovery cycle. Wait for it, or fast forward to about 0:55.

It's a de-milled 686 frame and internals........


YouTube
Watched it many times. It seems to me the only way for the hammer to go forward on a trigger pull in which the trigger is all the way forward and the hammer is at rest is if the rebound slide is out of the way. Like itís not returning forward at all! Do I have that right?
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:53 PM
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Here's a link to several revolver action static drawings that show the position of the various components in single action and double action. These may help you to visualize what's actually happening.

In double action in your scenario, if the trigger is pulled fully to the rear, it will complete it's course after bypassing sear in the the hammer. Consequently, this rearward movement of the trigger removes the rebound slide from under the hammer, just like it would if there was no malfunction. The gun should work normally if cocked single action. If the DA sear is out of service, as in this case, DA will not function correctly.


Revolver action drawings
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Old 06-26-2020, 06:11 PM
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Here's a link to several revolver action static drawings that show the position of the various components in single action and double action. These may help you to visualize what's actually happening.

In double action in your scenario, if the trigger is pulled fully to the rear, it will complete it's course after bypassing sear in the the hammer. Consequently, this rearward movement of the trigger removes the rebound slide from under the hammer, just like it would if there was no malfunction. The gun should work normally if cocked single action. If the DA sear is out of service, as in this case, DA will not function correctly.


Revolver action drawings
Ok I think I've got it now. Its almost positively the sear not resetting then correct? The sear is staying behind the tail on the trigger instead of slipping on to the top surface and when this happens its actually camming the hammer forwards instead of back.

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Old 06-26-2020, 06:22 PM
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Sort of....the hammer is moving forward because it's under spring tension provided by the mainspring. In your scenario, the DA sear in the hammer is bypassed by the trigger, but the other actions caused by the trigger continue as the trigger is pulled rearward, including the cylinder rotation caused by the hand.

As the trigger continues to be pulled back, what's called the the "hammer seat" on top of the rebound slide moves back, allowing the hammer to move forward (under mainspring tension) to the position it would be after falling into battery. This is because the rebound slide has moved back, and out of the way.


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Old 06-26-2020, 06:28 PM
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Sort of....the hammer is moving forward because it's under spring tension provided by the mainspring. In your scenario, the DA sear in the hammer is bypassed by the trigger, but the other actions caused by the trigger continue as the trigger is pulled rearward, including the cylinder rotation caused by the hand.

As the trigger continues to be pulled back, what's called the the "hammer seat" on top of the rebound slide moves back, allowing the hammer to move forward (under mainspring tension) to the position it would be after falling into battery. This is because the rebound slide has moved back, and out of the way.


Is it likely then that the double action sear spring is the culprit?
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Old 06-26-2020, 06:34 PM
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Perhaps, but as others have said there are a lot of other things that could be contributing, so this would have to be considered speculation on my part.
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Old 06-26-2020, 06:35 PM
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Armorer has tried to walk you and listeners through the interplay of parts but Iíll just add that itís real tough the solve a problem like this without having the gun on the bench. Either way Iím just going to say that Iím pretty sure somebody has monkeyed up the trigger or hammer or both. Even clipped rebound springs donít cause hammer tripping like the video. You need a qualified mechanic to solve this

Good luck
Rick
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Old 06-26-2020, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
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Armorer has tried to walk you and listeners through the interplay of parts but Iíll just add that itís real tough the solve a problem like this without having the gun on the bench. Either way Iím just going to say that Iím pretty sure somebody has monkeyed up the trigger or hammer or both. Even clipped rebound springs donít cause hammer tripping like the video. You need a qualified mechanic to solve this

Good luck
Rick
Thanks for your input but Iíll state again the gun has not been monkeyed with or modified in any way at all. Bought new a couple years ago, shot very little. It will go back to S&W I just wanted to learn from it.
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Old 06-26-2020, 06:55 PM
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If you think about it and don't mind, try to give us a report on what was determined to be wrong when you get it back.

Thanks,

Carter
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:18 PM
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If you think about it and don't mind, try to give us a report on what was determined to be wrong when you get it back.

Thanks,

Carter
Absolutely I will. Thanks for the help.
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Old 06-26-2020, 09:22 PM
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I have had this happen twice on two different guns. Same part on both ... rebound spring.

First one was a used 29 DX I bought, found out after first range session that someone had clipped a few coils off the rebound spring.

Second one was a 629-4 Classic that I bought new and shot a LOT. Only modification was polished internals shortly after purchase. Rebound spring the gun was made with was 3/16" shorter than a new one.

I hope your fix is as easy as mine were and you don't have any damaged DA surfaces.
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:50 AM
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Anyone else having issues opening the video? If so, I'll take it down.

Clicking on the photo should re-direct you to Flickr. Thanks
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:44 PM
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I have watch this thread intently and have ideas but without gun in hand, it is tough. I think rebound spring and also dont like the looks of the double action sear as I was taught it should have a bevel on the bottom of the front side that I dont see here. Hopefully you will get an answer from factory repair but I would not bet on it.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:59 PM
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S&W Hammer Camming Forward Problem 586-8 S&W Hammer Camming Forward Problem 586-8 S&W Hammer Camming Forward Problem 586-8 S&W Hammer Camming Forward Problem 586-8 S&W Hammer Camming Forward Problem 586-8  
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I had a similar issue once, worked fine in single action but wouldn't fire in double action. When I removed the side plate the only thing I could find wrong was large burrs on the corners of the rebound slide. I stoned them off & it worked fine afterwards. Apparently jammed it up so the hammer didn't seat.
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  #35  
Old 06-30-2020, 12:03 AM
unclerandy unclerandy is offline
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Originally Posted by ken158 View Post
I have watch this thread intently and have ideas but without gun in hand, it is tough. I think rebound spring and also dont like the looks of the double action sear as I was taught it should have a bevel on the bottom of the front side that I dont see here. Hopefully you will get an answer from factory repair but I would not bet on it.
The second slow motion of the internals is not my gun, another member added that to show the technicals of the reset.
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  #36  
Old 07-09-2020, 12:11 PM
unclerandy unclerandy is offline
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Master revolver smith Will O'Hara confirmed that the DA sear doesn't have enough clearance or "wink" as they call it. I confirmed this with a .010 thousandths feeler gage and it wouldn't clear. I put the DA sear in a mini precision machine vise keeping the angle of the sear nose and stoned it. I had to do this twice as the first time wasn't quite enough. I put it back together and couldn't get it to malfunction unless I intentionally tried to by short stroking it. I took it apart again and put in a Wilson spring kit and it feels awesome. Thanks for all the input.

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  #37  
Old 07-10-2020, 12:41 PM
unclerandy unclerandy is offline
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Big shout out to armorer951 for his help!
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  #38  
Old 07-10-2020, 03:02 PM
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bigggbbruce bigggbbruce is offline
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Originally Posted by armorer951 View Post
If you think about it and don't mind, try to give us a report on what was determined to be wrong when you get it back.

Thanks,

Carter
Warranty they usually don't take the time to explain anything. Probably put a hammer and or trigger in it and send it back.
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Old 07-10-2020, 09:57 PM
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armorer951 armorer951 is online now
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Big shout out to armorer951 for his help!

Like a Doctor trying to do surgery over the telephone.....at least I learned a thing or two, as always.
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