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Old 11-09-2020, 01:38 PM
whooper333 whooper333 is offline
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Default S&W 945 Fail to Extract

Had a thread running under the ammo title on my new to me(or not so new anymore to me) s&w 945. My first time to the range had on average 2 fte per mag. After about 4 mags of this I gave up. Turned to the s&w forum community and the advise I receive was first make sure it is clean and the extractor is not damaged. second get some new recoils springs, it is the easiest thing to do and try that. Third if that fails try a new extractor spring.

Well I am at number three now. On my second range visit I had the wolf tuning recoil spring pack #15 thru #20 and the midway 8” long. I think the midway and the wolf #18 had the least fte but neither was acceptable.

This morning I finally got to cleaning the gun and removed the extractor. Took some photos to post but having trouble with upload. I don’t see anything unusual. I will have to look thru what I purchased when I got the recoil springs but I did purchase new extractor springs I think from midway and numrich.

Does any one know if it is worth trying to place shims under the extractor spring during reassembly. I have some .010 ss shim stock that I could stamp out some round shims. I would like to know is it worth trying the shims with a new spring?
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:13 PM
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I'm assuming you have ruled out ammo as the issue? Can you describe the malfunction in more detail please......for instance, does "fte" mean the casing is left behind in the chamber or it is not being ejected properly? Does the ejector itself look ok, with no damage to the profile? Excuse my ignorance, but is this a Commander length barrel and slide? If so, you may need a slightly higher rated recoil spring.

It is possible to shim the extractor, if you feel the tension is inadequate, even with the new replacement spring.
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:20 PM
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Looks like the full size model to me sir, judging by the adjustable rear... as far as the failure to extract.... its rather odd that the gun isent working, I know there are odd ducks out, this is just wildy strange that a PC gun like this is having issues... maybe try loading a full mag of empty cases and running the slide if it chambers and extracts the cases then shes good there... you can still find Factory recoil springs... maybe a shooter error, respectfull speculations sir.


EDIT.. Take a live round WITH THE BARREL OUT OF THE GUN! and drop in the chamber, see if it drops in and out nice n smooth could be a chamber issue..
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:39 PM
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I have, in certain circumstances, placed a shim under the extractor spring and gotten positive results.

If you do this and it puts too much tension on your extractor I will predict that you may experience feeding issues, but it’s not hard to pull it back out.

My first move (at this point) would be the new extractor spring. If no joy, then sure, try shimming. After that, try a new extractor. I am not certain but it would only make sense if the extractor is the same part that S&W used in all the .45cal 3rd Gens and in the 1911’s too, and still currently used.

To close this post... boy, there’s well over a dozen 945’s across all of my best buddies and I’m telling NO LIES WHATSOEVER, nobody’s 945 pistols are “fail to” anything other than X-ring and ear to ear grins. These pistols are undervalued and mind-blowing fantastic.

I just got back from sending 100 through one of my 945’s.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:00 PM
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What's the ejector look like? is the tip broken off? It's not impossible for a broken ejector to produce an occasional stoppage that might appear to be a failure-to-react to someone not that familiar with the 3rd gen guns. Just a thought.

They used to offer 3 extractor springs for the 3rg gen .45/10's, a Standard, Heavier than Standard and an Extra Heavy (than Standard). Just a couple years ago I managed to get someone at the factory to look around and get me some of the last "current" springs for the .45/10's, to "top off" my parts kits for these obsolete guns, and they sent me 2 types of springs (instead of 3). I presume they were Standard and Heavier, but the guy who sent them to me was the original guy who used to run Pistol Repair for 3rd gen's in Springfield (now retired), so if that's what he thought I ought I needed, I trusted him.

Measuring the tension is done using a Wagner Force FDK 20 Dial Gauge, with the appropriate hooked extension pulling the extractor hook outward, and the tension measured at initial deflection (extractor moves). The recommended tension range was 5 - 6 1/2 lbs. The front of the slide is usually mounted in a padded vise, so the dial's hook can pull on the extractor hook.


(Ignore the dial reading, as I was measuring another gun.)


Maybe you can find a machinist or gun smith who owns that model dial (with the appropriate screw-in extension to capture the extractor hook), because otherwise it's about a $150 tool that's only needed to service/repair of 34d gen's for extractor spring tension replacement and testing, which doesn't come along all that often.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:21 PM
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So after closer observation to your pictures I can see the extractor looks a bit worn on the outside that "silver line" where the black has worn off, should not be there. that is from someone dropping a live round In the chamber which should not be done in the Smith and Wesson 3rd semi autos it should always be loaded from the mag, It very well could be you have an extractor issue As the extractor "claw" looks very well broken or worn...
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:37 PM
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In looking again, I would love to see a closer full res picture but I'm thinking that Erocksmash has a good eye. Unless it is photo trickery, it kind of does look like the tip end of the extractor has been smacked around.

I'd be looking for an extractor too.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Erocksmash View Post
So after closer observation to your pictures I can see the extractor looks a bit worn on the outside that "silver line" where the black has worn off, should not be there. that is from someone dropping a live round In the chamber which should not be done in the Smith and Wesson 3rd semi autos it should always be loaded from the mag, It very well could be you have an extractor issue As the extractor "claw" looks very well broken or worn...
That caught my initial attention, too. However, it might also be a normal artifact resulting from hot gasses blowing back around the case.

My original 4513TSW (6rd cutaway grip frame) has the same "marking", and I don't release the slide & extractor to slam forward on a round already in the chamber.

If you were to look at the circular outline around the case base on a breech face, and the "line" on the extractor shoulder, you'd probably see the artifact "line" follows the same circular line. Gas does blow back around the case walls, and the extractor hook reaches into the base to a degree, exposing that part of the front of the shoulder to any gas fouling bleeding out of the chamber.

It's just less noticeable on a stainless steel extractor.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:48 PM
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Maybe you just need to hang on tighter.
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Old 11-09-2020, 05:04 PM
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i will try to get some better photos of the extractor. I thought that it looked ok. but as I said the gun is new to me. I have some imada force gauges that I can check the pull of the extractor at first movement. perhaps a string at the tip of the extractor hook will suffice instead of the hook V-shape tip on the gauge in the posted photo.

the fte are with federal 230gr rn fmj American eagle, the cases are left in the chamber and the slide is coming forward on the next round. it ends up with the live round nose of the bullet jammed against the spent case primer that is left in the chamber and the breach face against the new round back end.

I tried some freedom munitions same 230gr rn fmj and the results were a little worse in the number of fte. I then tried freedom munitions 200gr hp and got some stove piping with the midway 8" recoil spring. don't know what was going on there?

the current extractor spring has a hint of red paint on it if that means anything to someone. I will go thru the box of new springs I got to see what new extractor springs I purchased for replacement.

as for wear on this extractor I hope that is not the case because I did not find a replacement extractor for the 945. it may be true that all 45cal. 3rd gens have the same extractor but at my last call to S&W customer service the answer was the gun has not been made in a while and S&W does not support parts. I think the kid said try jacks guns for parts, whatever that means.

as for the buddy's with the 945's that have a grin e-e I will get in line and hope that I make it to the counter. maybe with the help here I can.
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Old 11-09-2020, 06:09 PM
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as for wear on this extractor I hope that is not the case
Well a quick comparison to my 945 and it looks exactly the same as yours, so you sir, are clear there... reference photo
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Old 11-09-2020, 06:16 PM
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I remember being told by someone at S&W that they'd sold a fair amount of their 3rd gen pistol parts to Jack First, but you'd have to call to see if they still have them (aren't listed on general web page).

About us – Jack First Inc.

Dunno what extractor springs the PC used in their 945's, but the standard 3rd gen .45 extractor spring is plain unpainted steel, and the last new ones I was sent that were "extra" were painted blue.

I'd like to see a pic of the ejector, just standing proud above the frame (sans slide), to see if it's an old or revised style, and to see if the tip is intact (old styles could develop a stress riser and break off over time).

Ordinarily, if an extractor spring is too lightly tensioned, it can sometimes fail to stay held against the case rim during a critical moment in the effects of the recoil impulse (when the barrel separates from the slide). Someone at the factory once called this a critical "moment of mass", because the "mass" of the pivoting extractor head, pushed against the case rim, has to be prevented from being pushed away from the case (recoil force acting on it), and the spring needs to counter this force. If it doesn't, the hook bounces out and away from the case rim, and the empty case may stay in the chamber.

I can't speak to anything used to measure the spring tension other than the dial gauge recommended and sold to armorers by S&W training. I'm not a machinist or gunsmith, just a factory-trained armorer. You might contact forum member BMCM, as he's better equipped and experienced as a machinist.

Also, as I was once told by the good folks at Wolff Gunsprings, when I asked why their "tension ratings" for their S&W extractor springs were listed with different ratings than what we were given by the factory, some companies might measure "tension" differently, using different equipment and methods.

If you can source your factory extractor springs by S&W factory parts numbers, these are the numbers of the springs listed in the .45/10 3rd gen's:
Standard - #10202
Heavier than Standard - #23563
Extra Heavy - #23433

(The complete part numbers often had 4 zero's at the end, so #10202 would be #102020000)

Since the people who originally built the 945's have retired, it's not surprising that someone at general customer service might say they don't support them anymore. You could try calling and ask to be connected to the PC, itself, but I have no idea if anyone working there at present was there for the heyday of the PC and their hand-built pistols. (John and Vito are retired.) It would be a roll of the dice whether there were even any of the older parts used in those guns remaining in some bin, desk drawer or cubby hole.
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Old 11-09-2020, 11:44 PM
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fastbolt I gotta say you had me on the mat I was seeing stars and the ref was counting.

then on about the 4th read I came up with this analogy. I am told in performance cars they use two springs on the intake and exhaust valves because at certain speeds the springs go into resonance and become wet noodles. being that each valve has a second spring the opposite spring maintains tension being of different diameter. by doing this valve float is prevented.

sounds like the guys at S&WPC stated the same thing at the BANG the shake rattle and roll can send a weak extractor spring into resonance and vola a wet noodle or a stuck case. it might not happen on every shot but often enough.

between this discussion and the discussion we had a month ago about recoil springs, hammer springs creating timing of the action allowing the spent case to constrict in the chamber before the action starts back, it sound like the ear to ear smile that was talked about is earned not given.

tomorrow I will try to get some photos of the ejector, a better shot of the extractor and see what springs I have in the box that I purchased a month ago. let me know if I am cooking with gas here on my way to earning my merit badge, or if I am still rubbing two sticks together.

on another note instead of shims has anyone tried using a sliced out section of oring inside the spring? kinda like two springs on a intake valve?
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Old 11-10-2020, 01:48 PM
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I measured the extractor springs I have on hand;

Original In the pistol was, wire size=.033”,length=.305”,
Od =.1915”, coils=5

Wolf #10lb #27129 wire=.0295”, length=.325”,od =.179”
Coil=4

Numrich r13811,s&w#102020000 wire=.031”, length=.304”
Od =.1935”, coil=4

Midway #421788 072020. Wire=.031”, length=.296”
Od =.193”, coil=4

I took more photos, there is some wear in the slide extractor grove just above the hook. It can be felt with the tip of a stick. (Photo 4) Maybe .002 felt. As for springs the original has the most coils and the thickest wire. The next best choice would be a toss up between the numrich and the midway with .031 and 4 coils. As someone mentioned I am not sure where wolf spring gets their data but they list #271129 as a #10lb extra power, it has the smallest wire @.029 and the smallest [email protected]. Go figure?

Looking at the numbers seems like taking the original spring placing a .125 pin inside of for support and giving it a stretch so it was .325” long would make it have the highest extractor hook force with the most spring coils.

At close magnified inspection of the extractor hook, there was a black residue where the hook locks on the case. Almost looked like caked on graphite power. It has been cleaned off.

I am thinking the high spots on the wear in the slide extractor groove just above the hook should be hit with a hard Arkansas stone. I am thinking if the high spots are gone they will not interfere with the hook operation.
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Old 11-10-2020, 01:52 PM
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I don’t think I’d have the cajones to modify the extractor until I had replacements in hand.

But it also occurs to me that you are doing very detailed work in this project and handling it more clinically and professionally than I would, so at this point I’m just rooting you on and hoping for a great conclusion!
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Old 11-10-2020, 02:43 PM
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I can't comment on spring weights, ill do a simple search for factory springs or consult a resident gunsmith here and go from there...
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Old 11-11-2020, 01:47 PM
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I called jack first in South Dakota this morning to find out about a new extractor, no answer, maybe they are close for veteran’s day.

Looking at what I thought was wear in the slide ejector slot from a distance, turns out to be not wear at all. From a distance I realized the shape of the wear matches the machining in the slide in that area.

It turns out that what I am looking at is a screw up by S&WPC machining. When they cut the opening the end mill was about .002” lower than it should have been and the end mill cut the top of the ejector slot in that area. So it’s not wear it’s a s&wpc screwup. (Wonder if they will warranty it, yes good luck with that.)

I am just going to make sure there is no high spots to interfere with the extractor operation, try the numrich or midway spring and see what happens. If that is a nogo maybe try to stretch out the original spring .020” and try it again. I guess the last choice will be the wolf being that it is .013” smaller in diameter than the rest and has the smallest size wire.

I have a few photos of the screwup, if you follow the shapes a endmill coming down in that area aligns perfectly. Also have some shots of the ejector for fast bolt.

I might even give the o-ring thought a try if the springs fail. I suppose before I go there I should check into hammer springs since it is a combo of hammer and recoil springs that control slide cycle timing.

Like I said I am new to the 945, I have other smith 3rd gen’s. Never noticed a problem with them like this. Is this gun really so finely tuned that if one thing get out of kilter the whole thing falls apart?
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:09 PM
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If I am seeing what I think I am seeing and what I think you are describing, I can't quite understand why that screw-up with the end mill would affect function.

I do have a VERY STRONG opinion on this however:
Quote:
So it’s not wear it’s a s&wpc screwup. (Wonder if they will warranty it, yes good luck with that.)
You were likely making a joke or tossing sarcasm here, but let's be clear for a minute...

There is nobody working at Smith & Wesson currently that truly knows these pistols. If I am mistaken on that and someone wishes to take this as a personal insult, prove it to me and you'll have all my apologies.

There's a slew of folks working there now that wouldn't recognize a 5906 if you blurred out the S&W logo. I've met factory reps (TEN YEARS AGO) that had no idea that S&W ever made a 10mm semiautomatic. not joking. You can get different answers to simple questions on out of production guns on consecutive days.

There is nobody at the S&W plant that is as qualified as you, Fastbolt and BMCM to handle questions and issues with a S&W Performance Center 945 pistol. And if it isn't clear, let it be crystal clear -- the Performance Center does not exist and has not existed for years. Years. Literally not of this Earth.

I wouldn't send this to AutoZone for repairs, I wouldn't send this to Taurus USA for repairs and I surely would never consider sending this pistol to Smith & Wesson in 2020 for repairs.

No way.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:49 PM
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Did you ever explain what type of FTEs you were having, stovepipes, leaving the case in the barrel chamber or the casing laying on top of the mag. Has the extractor been gauged, maybe the last owner messed with it and you just need a new extractor fit properly. I would think all that area breechface, extractor, measurement would be the same as 4506, but I dont know that. S/W didnt cover the P/C guns in their armory schools and Ive been lucky and never had an issue with any of mine. Also the marking on the front (end) of the extractor, may indicate that it is striking the shell casing above the rim during extraction, knocking the case back into the chamber. We were taught to look at that in 1911 schools,extractor too long, check the fired brass for markings in the beveled spot in front of the rims. Also what type ammo might eliminate any questions about ammo being the problem, does it happen with different ammos. We had to double spring alot or 9mm extractors years ago in the S/W auto early days. I may have a few of those laying around if thats the issue. Without gauging the extractor to start with its hard to tell. I dont know if S/W, especially that model is meant to have a semi loose fit extractor like a 1911, or tighter. Just some thoughts , hard to figure without looking at the gun. Good luck.

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Old 11-11-2020, 03:09 PM
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I don't think the ledge or anomaly you are seeing in the top of the extractor slot would negatively effect function of the extractor itself. You may be able to check/verify this by carefully cycling some sized, empty casings. (hope I'm looking properly at what you are referring to)

In terms of the extractor spring tension, if you feel it is inadequate and want to experiment with a heavier configuration, it would be better to carefully shim under a new replacement spring, or even the original spring that you found in the gun, rather than stretching the spring to make it "longer". This is purely an opinion based on my experience with coil springs.

The cutaway shape on the bottom of the ejector looks curved like the newer style ones, vs the "squared corner" of the older design. I'm not familiar with the 945 profile at the contact point, so I can't comment on how that looks in terms of length and angle. I believe you indicated that the spent casings are being left behind in the chamber, so this (ejection) would not be a concern.
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:14 PM
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If this was one of my 945's , there's only place I would send it to and for sure it wouldn't be S&W . And that would be BMCM , he's the man .
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:18 PM
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To further the above thought:

It has been revealed by others in searches that I have found that some Model 745 pistols had errors in manufacture affecting the depth of the hole where the base of the coil extractor spring sits. I can neither confirm nor deny this allegation. I can however tell you that I own two 745's and one of them was good to go as it came to me and the other one was an extraction FAIL FAIL FAIL and after reading the possible problem with the depth of that hole, I elected to shim it.

My records indicate that I did that shimming some 1,600 to 1,700 rounds ago. Zero failures since that time. I run 200 and 230 grain plated and 200 grain LSWC. I only run handloads. I love my 745's and they are both (now!) runners.

Shim your extractor and see if you can get this pistol to run.
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Old 11-11-2020, 04:29 PM
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did not mean to step on anyone's toes, yes it was a attempt of sarcastic humor. sometimes postings can get so dry and technical the eyes start to glaze over( more humor)

sevens did you collect any data on how deep the extractor spring hole was, how much shim you added, if gauged what was the pound pull at the extractor? any info would be helpful.

as for questions about fte; spent case in chamber, new round bullet against spent case primer, breach face against new round case base.

I am going to try to get as much info in this thread so that if it starts working and someone else runs into this they might find some answers.

lastly to my question about this gun being a thoroughbred, like I said I have other 3rd gen guns, none have experienced this issue, 10mm,45,9mm. there is a youtv video justinopinion his new or new to him 945, on the video he is having the same issues. I don't care if the gun can cycle empty cases, its the live rounds that matter.
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Old 11-11-2020, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by whooper333 View Post
did not mean to step on anyone's toes, yes it was a attempt of sarcastic humor. sometimes postings can get so dry and technical the eyes start to glaze over( more humor)
You didn't step on anyone's toes -- I was merely trying to say that I think getting Smith & Wesson involved is futile and I would REALLY suggest that you don't send it to them. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe everyone working there currently is well beyond ignorant on the subject of a 945. That sounds personal, I don't mean for it to be.

Quote:
sevens did you collect any data on how deep the extractor spring hole was, how much shim you added, if gauged what was the pound pull at the extractor? any info would be helpful.
None, none, zero, sorry. It wouldn't run as it came to me and I believe (after the fact) that this is why it was sold. I tried twice and in two slightly different ways to shim the spring and the first one worked for a bit -- but then failed because my choice of shim was a poor choice and it changed shape on me. My second choice for a shim did not/has not changed over time and the gun runs beautifully now.

Sorry that I have no technical anything. Everything that I did was informal and NON-permanent alteration, so that I could start over from square one if I needed. It appears that I don't need to.

How much extractor tension? I have no number and I never did any measure beyond:
"this feels weak"
"this is what it a proper running S&W .45 feels like"
"this change seems better"
"maybe this is TOO much"
"Hey, that feels really good, let's get to the range"

I'm not suggesting that anyone hire me to fix their pistols. But I've had pretty good success on getting mine to run.

I don't tend to break my stuff but I loooooove to shop old and used, so I've gotten quite used to dealing with some problem children.
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:01 AM
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yes this is a good place to seek advise, some may be good, some maybe not as good, but overall you come out ahead. I appreciate the input its all good and helpful.

an example of this is that I was thinking of maybe stretching the original spring. someone said that is not a good idea, shim it if anything. (I am paraphrasing) but that was the intension. then I remembered many years ago I had to adjust the pressure of a high pressure hydraulic system. the way it was done was by using shims under the spring.

so stretching the extractor spring is a dumb idea and I was straightened out here, thank you whoever corrected me.

so with all this input I think I am going to do what fastbolt mentioned. I am going to use the imada force gauges I have come up with a hook similar to what fastbolt shows in his photos. install the original spring on a slip pin in the slide so it can be easily taken in and out and measure the original extractor tension at first movement. then try the same thing with the numrich and midway springs.

then I will have some relateable numbers that I can post here.

so here is where I am screwed up; I don't mean to harp on fastbolt, but going back to what that S&WPC guy told him about moment of mass thing; is the consensus that I should increase extractor tension to prevent fte. or is it not so fast there, it could be the shake rattle and roll is causing the extractor spring to go into resonance thus causing the fte and it might require a weaker spring to correct the issue. I think I am starting to see stars again.

the reason I say this is because the original spring is made of the thickest wire and has the most turns anything else I am guessing will measure less in pull weight. maybe I should get the numbers and we can continue from there.
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Old 11-12-2020, 01:34 AM
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...
so here is where I am screwed up; I don't mean to harp on fastbolt, but going back to what that S&WPC guy told him about moment of mass thing; is the consensus that I should increase extractor tension to prevent fte. or is it not so fast there, it could be the shake rattle and roll is causing the extractor spring to go into resonance thus causing the fte and it might require a weaker spring to correct the issue. I think I am starting to see stars again.

the reason I say this is because the original spring is made of the thickest wire and has the most turns anything else I am guessing will measure less in pull weight. maybe I should get the numbers and we can continue from there.

Perhaps you're overthinking things.

This is a .45ACP pistol extractor spring. It isn't a motor valve spring having to support valve timing at sustained high RPM's.

Here's a very quick pic I just took out at my bench of some 3rd gen .45 (10) extractor springs.

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/**z8R6hx/45-ext-spgs-1.jpg[/img]

The unpainted spring is the Standard spring and the blue one is a Heavier spring.

Note the Standard spring has 5 coil windings and the Heavier one has 6 coil windings. Also note that typical with S&W factory extractor (and other) springs, both the ends are ground flat, making for what S&W engineers call a "closed" spring.

Now, once you start experimenting with non-factory springs, which may not have flattened ends, and which may be of different wire gauge and number of coils, or even different compressed lengths ... you're probably on your own.

If the extractor spring tension is too heavy, you're probably going to cause feeding problems. That's usually due to there being too much resistance (spring tension) acting against the rising case rim being able to slide underneath the extractor hook, "camming" the extractor outward in the right "feeding timing" as the case base slides up the breech face.

If the spring tension is too light, you're going see failures-to-extract. That's caused bu the recoil force (shock) traveling outward. It's going to act upon the extractor (only being held in place by its own mass and its spring), and the extractor's mass and spring tension will be insufficient to hold the extractor hook sufficiently firmly against the case rim at a critical moment. Instead, it may "bounce" outward and over the case rim, and as the slide travels backwards slightly differently than the dropping barrel, the hook will end up bouncing back inward behind the case rim that's now in front of the hook.

The factory engineers gave armorers the "sweet spot" of a recommended tension range. They also gave armorers some optional spring weights in case some particular slide's spring hole depth (or shape at the bottom) might need to be offset with a different spring.

I remember one factory tech telling me that some of the older machinery wasn't nearly as precise, nor was the sharpness of the cutters as easily monitored as it was later, with computers. That was why in the early 59XX slides we might need to use that "nested" extractor spring set made as a Repair Kit for armorers fro a while.

If the bottom of the spring hole wasn't cut square enough to allow the Standard spring to sit all the way down and flat on the bottom, then a lighter spring was chosen and paired with a smaller & taller diameter "inner" spring, to get the tension range up where it needed to be.

Of course, the tech said that if a gun with that wrongly machined spring hole was sent back to the factory, he'd use a hand-turned ball end mill tool to cut bottom of the spring hole to the correct shape, so the standard spring would be used. Naturally, since most armorers aren't experienced factory techs or gunsmiths, they provided armorers with a simple "field" repair method. We got the nested spring kit, which was later replaced with a choice of 2 different standard size single springs to try in a gun with a spring problem, and the nested spring kit became obsolete.

BTW, if you're "seeing stars", you really ought to consider having someone familiar with the pistol take a look at it. No sense in going the "trial & error/never done this" route and risking doing something that may make things worse.

Have you tried to be connected over to the actual Performance Center itself, yet?

Tried to contact forum member BMCM?
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Old 11-13-2020, 04:46 PM
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I called jack first again this morning. I have a extractor for the 3rd gen .45cal coming along with a couple more springs and a extractor retaining pin. The numbers given by Becky are; 23569, 10202, 20135. I will have them for spares if needed.

I also made some adapters and a hook tool for my imada gauges to engage the 945 extractor so I can measure the threshold movement pull weight of the different springs I have. I would not have predicted my measurements based on the spring sizes, but here are the actual measurements.

1)Original 945 spring, pull 6.0 to 6.5 lb threshold movement pull, then with a apx. .020 deflection mid point tension of 7.7lb.

2)wolf #10 extra power 27129; pull 7.0 to 7.5lb with a mid point of 8.6lb.

3)numrich r13811 s&w102020000; pull 5.0 to 5.5lb with a mid point of 7.0lb.

4)midway 421788. 072020; pull 4.75 to 5.25lb with a midpoint of 6.5lb.

The midpoint was to see if the pull weight would continue to increase with compression or if it would flatten out. In all cases the weight increased.

For comparison I took my 4516-1 which I can not recall it ever having a hiccup at the range and the extractor hook measures a pull of 3.8 to 4.0lb with a midpoint of 4.6lb.

So the 945 will be assembled with the wolf spring and I will see what happens next time at the range. Like I said, I would not have predicted that the spring with the smallest dia wire and the smallest outside diameter would have the highest measured pull weight at the extractor hook. Stay tuned.

As for stars, I can hold my own. Perhaps not the sharpest tool in the shed but definitely not the dullest. Way to early for me to throw in the towel. I think Nixon said your not defeated when you fail, your defeated when you give up.

Here are some photos
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Old 11-13-2020, 05:49 PM
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FWIW, when we were taught to measure extractor spring tension, it was at the exact moment of deflection being detected. Just as the extractor began to move. Not after it had been moving.

Now, there's also an issue with fitting the extractor in any particular slide. That involves filing the adjustment pad (raised surface behind the hook).

We were never given any measurements for the PC guns, but for the 3rd gen's armorers were originally sold a set of Bar and Flag gauges to measure "fit". They both had Go & No-Go ends. The Bar gauge would fit between the extractor hook's edge and the opposite side of the breech face wall. Go & No-Go is self explanatory. However, I sometimes heard that a particular gun might run best if it was "tightly blocked", meaning the Go gauge would just accept the block (no extractor movement), instead of being a loose fit, but one which wouldn't allow the No-Go end to fit. FWIW, the need for "tightly blocked" fit was something I heard referenced more to the .40's.

The Flag gauge was thinner, and was meant to check the fit behind the extractor hook and the breech face directly behind it. Between the rear of the hook and the breech face. This checked for the extractor to allow space to fit over a case rim (of acceptable tolerances). As time passed armorers were told they no longer need to use the Flag gauges, and they stopped selling them. The inference was that more modern manufacturing specs made measuring that dimension unnecessary.

Here's some pics of the Bar and Flag gauges for 3rd gen .45's.

The Bar gauge:



However, here's a Bar gauge for the original SW1911. Note the difference in measurements of the Go & No-Go dimensions. Presumably, that's because of the different slide design and breech dimensions.



So, I have no idea what the dimensions might be for the PC slides, let alone the 945 slides (or 754/845 models).

For trivia, here's the Flag gauge for the 3rd gen .45 extractor fitting:




Now, if that extractor was fitted on the "too generous" end of things, meaning the Bar gauge, for your particular slide, I could see that a spring tension on the "lighter" end of the normal range (whatever that is for the PC guns, if it's different than the 3rd gen guns) might allow for the hook to more easily sometimes bounce out & over the case rim at times. If this was a 3rd gen gun, I'd try the next heavier spring to see if it resolved the FTE, but at the same time make sure it didn't introduce a failure-to-feed situation because of too much tension. Balancing act.

Also, as I've been told by both armorer instructors and repair techs at S&W ... the final, real proof of the fit and function, once the bench checks are done, is whether the gun actually feeds, fires and extracts normally in live-fire.

Just some thoughts for the interest of discussion. They never discussed the PC guns in armorer classes. Those are things I'd take into consideration to bench check for a regular 3rd gen gun.
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Old 11-13-2020, 05:57 PM
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I just added and revised some thoughts in the post, if you want to refresh it John ...
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:42 PM
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I have found the problem with my 945. Wish to thank all the folks that helped out with this project. Bottom line, it turns out that it was poor machining of the chamber by s&w performance center that caused the issue. A 45acp clymer chamber reamer from brownells solved the fail to extract issues. There was a ridge in the chamber about 1/32” from the throat step which cause all the frustration. Turning the clymer chamber reamer with finger tips with cutting oil on reamer cleared out enough of the ridge to allow reliable case extraction at the range.

Before the reamer arrived checked all the extractor dimensions and compared it to the information provided as well as a few .45 cal 3rd gens I own. All dimensions appeared to be in tolerance. Measured the extractor hook pressure in pounds with the wolf extra power #10 spring and found it decreased after the gun was fired about 75 rounds. Changed the spring back to the original spring that came with the weapon because it was the only 5 coil spring I had after buying a host of springs all of which were 4 coil. Before I assembled the extractor I included a .010 shim under the 5 coil spring which gave about 7.5lb pull at the extractor hook at threshold of hook deflection.

Gun at the range with the midway 8 inch recoil spring had 2 fte in 100 rounds fired. Both were on same magazine. Cycled thru the rest of the mags I had and returned to the problem mag 8 rounds loaded and no issues.

Returned to the range a couple of days latter with a clean gun and another 100 rnds. Decided to try some lighter recoil springs. Long story short the wolf #20 lb and the 8” midway give the best results.anything lighter and fte starts up again. Both springs have decreased in length after firing compared to the new length measurements.

Also while waiting for the brownells reamer I blended and polished two spots on the inside of the gun frame adjacent to the barrel feed ramp. I have seen Jerry m. In a video where he cycles thru 5 empty cases. My gun would not allow this because the case mouths would hang up on the rough frame areas I mentioned. After my blending and polishing on the frame inside my gun now does party tricks and feeds 5 empty cases on hand cycle.

Will experiment next range visit with #20 wolf and long midway springs for best performance. Here is a photo of the chamber ridge I scope of.
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:20 PM
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I just found this thread today and have to salute your perseverance in ferreting out the cause of the problem.

As a 945-1 owner, I also say thanks for making a lot of valuable information available as a result the discussions that arose from this being posted.
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:50 PM
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I would posit that while S&W and the Performance Center deserve a rack on the knuckles for allowing this to be shipped out, if you had a chamber problem wholly contained in the barrel, we might be able to blame Briley for that.

Does make me wonder... if Briley provided the barrels to the PC, would they arrive with chamber already cut or would the PC do that?

Bar-Sto was the source for a select few early PC barrels for sure (Briley Custom, Comp-40, more?) but I believe that Briley was the source for the bulk of the PC semiauto barrels.
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Old 06-05-2021, 02:55 PM
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I've been having much the same issue with a 5906TSW that I suspect to be having the same issue as your 945. From what I've read around the forums the early batches of 5906TSWs which this seems to be one of had chambers too tight to reliably extract with different kinds of ammo. I had BMCM change out the extractor spring and polish out the chamber which seemed to remedy the issue initially from when it would FTE at least once every mag but the malfunctions would return on subsequent range outings unless I kept the chamber clean after every session. I considered having the chamber reamed out like you did but permanently altering the chamber is a last resort for me and I'm instead looking for a spare, newer 5906TSW barrel to use instead.
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Old 06-05-2021, 05:04 PM
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Congrats on resolving the issue.

FWIW, back when I was a junior armorer, there finally came a point when the head armorer showed (trusted) me to learn how to use finishing reamers to carefully remove the occasional high spots in the chambers of an older S&W 3rd gen, as well as clean up the uneven barrel leade once in a while. This wasn't something taught in the armorer classes, since armorers aren't gunsmiths or factory techs. I can't emphasize his caution to go slow and not remove too much metal. Anyway, it certainly corrected sticky extraction and failures-to-extract in the occasional gun.

FWIW, when the engineers changed the chamber wall angle in the 5906TSW's, we were told it involved something like a 1 degree change, opening the chamber wall angle. It was reportedly marked by the barrel hoods having the larger 9mm stamping, versus the smaller, older alpha/numeric markings of 9mm Parabellum.
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Old 06-06-2021, 02:07 AM
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Again I would like to say thanks for the help to all that posted on this thread. There is some excellent information and reference numbers that have been given here. Perhaps it will help someone out in the future.

As to if the problem will return as had been mentioned only time will tell. I can say I went from 2 to 3 fte per magazine to 2 per hundred rounds shot, which makes the fun needle go way green.

I know I am not the only one that has experienced this problem on a 945. There is a video on you boob where a guy named Justin opinion is firing his new to him 945 for the first time and what da ya know fte issues. I posted a remark on his video to see if he had any answers, but never heard back.

Anyway if someone has this issue and stumbles on this thread, it may be helpful. I would like to stress that taking a finishing chamber reamer to the barrel should be the last thing on the list. Anyone that reads this should understand that I tried everything else first and only after noticing the chamber ridge and then confirming that I could feel a bump when I slowly inserted a empty case into the chamber did I turn to the reamer.

In case there are 945 owners out there that have seen Jerry m. Video of his 945 cycling 5 empty cases and have tried the empty case trick with no joy, I am attaching a couple of photos of what worked for me. Blending and polishing on the frame inside adjacent to the barrel feed ramp turned my 945 into a party trick center piece. It should be stated when I did this the gun was pretty much a boat anchor unless I loaded 1 round per mag. Also I should note the gun only does 5 empty cases any more and the results may vary.
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Old 07-10-2021, 01:17 AM
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I wanted to post the final configuration on my s&w 945pc pistol.

The recoil spring that I am using is the midway USA #227209 apx 8” long with .0437” wire diameter. The extractor spring is the original that came with the gun. It is a 5 coil spring with a diameter of .191”, length of .305”, and wire of .033”. Under the extractor spring I have a .020” shim. The pull weight at the extractor hook at first deflection is 8.0-8.1lbs. In this configuration the gun has had no malfunctions with a round count of a little over 100 rnds thru it. the 4 magazines I have all function well.

Shooting of this pistol will slow, now that the gun is working well. It will probably visit the range a couple times a year because it is one nice pistol and I don’t want to shoot the heck out of it. Except for the defect that was left in the barrel chamber by s&w the rest of the pistol has exceptional fit and finish and now it seems I want to preserve that quality for years to come. It is funny, the pistol went from a good looking boat anchor to a safe queen compliments of a clymer chamber reamer and the contributions of the knowledgeable folks here at the s&w forum. Thanks again to all of you that contributed to this projects success.
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