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  #1  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:30 AM
jerseyshoreshot jerseyshoreshot is offline
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I just purchased a 4506-1, a newer model with a blued trigger and hammer. The pistol is in excellent condition and appears to have been fired minimally. After cleaning and lubrication, I put 300 rounds through it at the range without incident. When I was cleaning it afterwards, I noticed for the first time that the right side of the Trigger Play Spring was bent slightly forward. Is this a cause for concern, and should I try to straiten it out?

Thank you
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:30 AM
jerseyshoreshot jerseyshoreshot is offline
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I just purchased a 4506-1, a newer model with a blued trigger and hammer. The pistol is in excellent condition and appears to have been fired minimally. After cleaning and lubrication, I put 300 rounds through it at the range without incident. When I was cleaning it afterwards, I noticed for the first time that the right side of the Trigger Play Spring was bent slightly forward. Is this a cause for concern, and should I try to straiten it out?

Thank you
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  #3  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:50 AM
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you want even contact but if you move it back, you may crack it since they are thin steel.

I would take a field stripped frame and look at the trigger function first.

if the other finger has no contact with the back of the trigger in single action mode, just bump the one finger forward slightly.

good luck
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by SW CQB 45:
you want even contact but if you move it back, you may crack it since they are thin steel.

I would take a field stripped frame and look at the trigger function first.

if the other finger has no contact with the back of the trigger in single action mode, just bump the one finger forward slightly.

good luck
SW CQB 45,

Thank you for the good advice. If there was a problem with the trigger play spring, would I feel it in the single action pull?
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:33 PM
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The trigger play spring helps keep excessive play out of the trigger when the pistol is cocked in single action.

Sometimes a particular gun might exhibit a click during the first part of the trigger's movement when the gun is cocked in single action. This is reportedly encountered more often in the .45/10mm models than in others.

The click is usually caused by a condition where the front hooks of the trigger's 'ears', or prongs, have slipped up and forward over the top of the drawbar head's V-notch (in which the prongs normally sit to some degree). The clicking noise is usually heard as the tips of the prongs are being snapped back down over the edge of the drawbar's head at the top of the notch.

Most folks won't notice a 'sloppy' single action trigger when normally shooting a TDA gun. I had a trigger spring break in one of my guns somewhere during the course of shooting over 800 rounds and I only realized it when I was examining the gun while cleaning it.

The older trigger play springs were firmer and had two distinct prongs. The newer springs are lighter (more flexible) and are connected across the top.

Breaking off one side, or both, from repeatedly 'adjusting' them ... looking for that "perfect" single action trigger ... will require that the spring be replaced. It's a simple replacement, installing a new spring in place on the drawbar with a rivet, but it requires some familiarity with the design in being able to properly detail strip & reassemble the frame.

I've seen more than a few trigger play springs unintentionally broken by folks "industriously cleaning their guns", forcing the small end of brushes down inside the frame and bending/breaking off the the springs.

FWIW, cocking the hammer of a field-stripped frame will not only allow more access to the frame around the top of the magazine well for careful cleaning behind the trigger window, but it will position the drawbar forward, which can shield the spring, somewhat, from some well-intentioned but unaware cleaning efforts.

Armorer are taught to check the angle of the trigger play spring to make sure it contacts the rear of the trigger's prongs and reduces excessive play in the trigger when the trigger is all the way to the rear. If necessary, the small end of a wooden armorer's wedge is used to gently tension the prongs of the trigger play spring forward.

Armorers used to be taught to check for this by taking an EMPTY gun they were inspecting, cocking the hammer into single action, tipping the muzzle straight down and then gently checking to see whether there was excessive forward movement of the trigger under gravity. Gently checking the amount of 'wiggle' present pressing the trigger to the initial take-up point and then allowing gravity to pull it downward.

Here are some clickable thumbnails of drawbars with the springs attached,


The images below show a trigger held in the drawbar head as if it were in the gun, pulled to the rear, with the spring normally contacting the trigger prongs and being under tension (having been pushed backwards a bit by contact with the prongs); and then 3 different drawbars and the normal angle of the springs as usually seen. These angles would probably work in most guns, although a minor adjustment might be found appropriate in an occasional gun.



Repeatedly bending and adjusting a trigger play spring is a good way to risk premature breakage.

None of this info should be taken as a ***w to', but as informal info intended to hopefully more clearly explain the function of the trigger play spring and its relationship to the trigger.
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  #6  
Old 04-21-2009, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fastbolt:
The trigger play spring helps keep excessive play out of the trigger when the pistol is cocked in single action.

Sometimes a particular gun might exhibit a click during the first part of the trigger's movement when the gun is cocked in single action. This is reportedly encountered more often in the .45/10mm models than in others.

The click is usually caused by a condition where the front hooks of the trigger's 'ears', or prongs, have slipped up and forward over the top of the drawbar head's V-notch (in which the prongs normally sit). The clicking noise is usually heard as the tips of the prongs are being snapped back down over the edge of the drawbar's head at the top of the notch.

Most folks won't notice a 'sloppy' single action trigger when normally shooting a TDA gun. I had a trigger spring break in one of my guns somewhere during the course of shooting over 800 rounds and I only realized it when I was examining the gun while cleaning it.

The older trigger play springs were firmer and had two distinct prongs. The newer springs are lighter (more flexible) and are connected across the top.

Breaking off one side, or both, from repeatedly 'adjusting' them ... looking for that "perfect" single action trigger ... will require that the spring be replaced. It's a simple replacement, installing a new spring in place on the drawbar with a rivet, but it requires some familiarity with the design in being able to properly detail strip & reassemble the frame.

I've seen more than a few trigger play springs unintentionally broken by folks "industriously cleaning their guns", forcing the small end of brushes down inside the frame and bending/breaking off the the springs.

FWIW, cocking the hammer of a field-stripped frame will not only allow more access to the frame around the top of the magazine well for careful cleaning behind the trigger window, but it will position the drawbar forward, which can shield the spring, somewhat, from some well-intentioned but unaware cleaning efforts.

Armorer are taught to check the angle of the trigger play spring to make sure it contacts the rear of the trigger's prongs and reduces excessive play in the trigger when the trigger is all the way to the rear. If necessary, the small end of a wooden armorer's wedge is used to gently tension the prongs of the trigger play spring forward.

Armorers used to be taught to check for this by taking an EMPTY gun they were inspecting, cocking the hammer into single action, tipping the muzzle straight down and then gently checking to see whether there was excessive forward movement of the trigger under gravity. Gently checking the amount of 'wiggle' present pressing the trigger to the initial take-up point and then allowing gravity to pull it downward.

Here are some clickable thumbnails of drawbars with the springs attached,

The first pair are pictures from a manual and show the typical angle of the spring as used in guns.



The next images show a trigger held in the drawbar head as if it were in the gun, pulled to the rear, with the spring normally contacting the trigger prongs; and then 3 different drawbars and the normal angle of the springs as usually seen. These angles would probably work in most guns, although a minor adjustment might be found appropriate in an occasional gun.



Repeatedly bending and adjusting a trigger play spring is a good way to risk premature breakage.

None of this info should be taken as a 'how to', but as informal info intended to hopefully more clearly explain the function of the trigger play spring and its relationship to the trigger.
Fastbolt,

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the time and effort that you put into responding to my post. Thanks to you I have a good working understanding of both parts. Since my SA trigger functions well enough within my shooting ability, I will take your advice and not mess with the Trigger Play Spring, one side of which is only slightly bent foward. I will also be sure to exercise caution when cleaning the pistol. I really want to take care of it since it is such and clean, unique and attractive gun.

Thank you again,

JSS
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  #7  
Old 04-21-2009, 04:12 PM
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Well there ya go. a professional answer.

being retired, hmmmmmmm. nevermind, got to many years to go.
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  #8  
Old 04-21-2009, 04:31 PM
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You're welcome, although I just made a couple of small changes for clarification ...

The click is usually caused by a condition where the front hooks of the trigger's 'ears', or prongs, have slipped up and forward over the top of the drawbar head's V-notch (in which the prongs normally sit to some degree).

The next images show a trigger held in the drawbar head as if it were in the gun, pulled to the rear, with the spring normally contacting the trigger prongs and being under tension (having been pushed backwards a bit by contact with the prongs);

FWIW, S&W used to make it a practice to use the same drawbars fitted with trigger play springs on their DAO models even though the springs didn't serve any purpose in the DAO guns.

Why (I asked one time)?

The answer I was given? Because it's easier to take a drawbar with the attached spring out of a single bin instead of having to keep a separate bin at hand of drawbars without the springs attached.

Also, I was told by a former weapons officer for the CHP here in CA that they eventually reached where they decided the trigger play springs didn't serve a practical purpose for their officers, and so they removed them from the drawbars of their 4006's. Didn't have to worry about replacing broken ones any longer.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:54 PM
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Fastbolt,

Your comment about the use of drawbars with trigger play springs in DAO pistols reminded me of something that I saw recently. I have been stocking up on spare parts for my pistol. On a 4506 exploded diagram with a parts list, the drawbar shown for a double action pistol had a Trigger Play Spring and a Trigger Play Rivet attached. I wondered why, and thanks to you, now I know.

Am I on the right track with my previous comment that if the pistol is firing fine, I should leave the Trigger Play Spring be. By no means do I consider myself an armorer.

Just out of curiosity, other than over aggressive cleaning or mishandling, what could cause a slight bend in the part? Looking at mine again, it almost looks more offset to one side than bent.

Thank you,

JSS
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  #10  
Old 04-21-2009, 05:30 PM
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Well, obviously there's no way I could guess what's happening with yours since I'm not looking at the gun.

It probably wouldn't be an unfair SWAG or guesstimate, though, to suspect that at some point along the line an owner may have inadvertently pushed against the off kilter spring leaf and left it a bit bent out of shape.

If everything's working fine, I'd leave it alone unless you knew what you were doing.

I can think back to a couple of instances where I came across someone's gun which had an older design spring with a skewed leaf on one side, and when I tried to gently push it back into shape it snapped off and I had to replace the spring.

Aside from having to disassemble the frame to remove the drawbar in order to replace the spring, riveting a new spring is pretty simple.

The hardest parts of the process is not losing the itty bitty rivet (anticipate sometimes needing 2 rivets for one installation ), and then making sure the base of the spring remains firmly seated against the drawbar head while the open end of the very soft rivet is being gently peened/rolled flat by the tip of a small ball peen hammer.

It takes a small vise (one of the $10 clamp-to-the-edge-of-the-table types is used in the armorer class); a 1/16" pin punch to push out the old rivet; a pillar file with a safety edge (to clamp into the vise jaws and then use a working surface at one point); and a 2 oz ball peen hammer.

I could email you the pics if you're interested just out of curiosity, although I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you knew how to detail strip the frame and reassemble it properly. S&W wouldn't recommend it, either.
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:43 AM
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Fastbolt

Coincidental story. Among other parts, I ordered two replacement barrels from S & W just to have, and they mistakably sent me two drawbars with trigger play springs and rivets attached instead. I am currently waiting for a return label for the drawbars and the originally ordered barrels to ship. I decided I’m going to keep the drawbars. Maybe its fate!

Thanks again.

JSS
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:30 AM
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Interesting. Maybe so.
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:45 PM
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Fastbolt, I've a 4506 (no dash) I bought new in 1990. Recently it began FTE (failure to extract) so I sent it back to S&W. According to their documentation, they polished the chamber and replaced the extractor spring. Now it shoots and extracts great.

Thanks for the info. on the 4506 trigger play spring. I've printed off all your posts and filed them thinking that if I ever begin having this trouble, I'll just pull out the file.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:47 PM
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De nada.

It's amazing how long those pivoting extractor springs can last, isn't it?

As far as the polishing of the chamber? I can see that happening with the occasional barrel produced on the old equipment.

We discovered that every once in a while we would find an occasional high spot on some of the early production 3rd gen guns when it seemed as though there might be a tight chamber. The head armorer at the time used to use a set of finishing chamber reamers to knock off the high spot and resolve 'tight' chambers. It cleaned up the barrel leade area, too, but it could also ruin a barrel pretty quickly if someone unfamiliar with how to properly use one tried it.

I've also always suspected that a Dremel should require a 10-day waiting period when someone has a hankering to 'fix' a gun with one.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Roots:
Fastbolt, I've a 4506 (no dash) I bought new in 1990. Recently it began FTE (failure to extract) so I sent it back to S&W. According to their documentation, they polished the chamber and replaced the extractor spring. Now it shoots and extracts great.

Thanks for the info. on the 4506 trigger play spring. I've printed off all your posts and filed them thinking that if I ever begin having this trouble, I'll just pull out the file.
I did the same thing. Its great information, although I will use it for diagnostics only and take Fastbolts advice to leave the heavy lifting to Smith & Wesson or another qualified armorer.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:38 PM
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Fast question

My CS45 has the click during trigger take up in single action mode. Should I send it in for service or just shoot it?

This will be my primary CCW arm.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:47 PM
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I was able to fix mine that had the same problem with the help of this thread.

New to Me 4566 has a clicking problem

Do what you feel comfortable with. Apparently the part that causes the clicking if not even necessary for the gun to function. I used the tip of a pencil eraser as mentioned in the thread I linked to to push the spring back into place.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajpelz View Post
I was able to fix mine that had the same problem with the help of this thread.

New to Me 4566 has a clicking problem

Do what you feel comfortable with. Apparently the part that causes the clicking if not even necessary for the gun to function. I used the tip of a pencil eraser as mentioned in the thread I linked to to push the spring back into place.

Thanks for that! Just got done carefully manipulating the spring per the thread you linked and the click is gone! I am a happy Panda
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:59 PM
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Good to hear.
A lot of people on this forum know their stuff. That is why this is the first place I come to with any firearm question...
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
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Also, I was told by a former weapons officer for the CHP here in CA that they eventually reached where they decided the trigger play springs didn't serve a practical purpose for their officers, and so they removed them from the drawbars of their 4006's. Didn't have to worry about replacing broken ones any longer.
Thanks for the info. I've purchased two LE tradeins recently, one a S&W 4513TSW with the trigger play spring completely broken off and the other a S&W 4006 CHP tradein that had both the trigger play spring AND the rivet gone.

I wonder if S&W simply didn't install the trigger play spring when the 4006 was built at the factory at the CHP's request or if it was removed by a CHP armorer when they got the pistol inhouse?

Seems if the armorer wanted to remove the spring that he would simply break it off from the drawbar rather than going to the trouble to disassemble the pistol to remove both the spring and the rivet.

I was also impressed that the CHP 4006 had an identification number (A4257 or something like that) laser etched (???) on the frame, slide and barrel.

Thanks again for the information. I appreciate it.
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:37 PM
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Thanks for the info. I've purchased two LE tradeins recently, one a S&W 4513TSW with the trigger play spring completely broken off and the other a S&W 4006 CHP tradein that had both the trigger play spring AND the rivet gone.

I wonder if S&W simply didn't install the trigger play spring when the 4006 was built at the factory at the CHP's request or if it was removed by a CHP armorer when they got the pistol inhouse?

Seems if the armorer wanted to remove the spring that he would simply break it off from the drawbar rather than going to the trouble to disassemble the pistol to remove both the spring and the rivet.

I was also impressed that the CHP 4006 had an identification number (A4257 or something like that) laser etched (???) on the frame, slide and barrel.

Thanks again for the information. I appreciate it.
The CHP weapon officer told me that the springs & rivets were removed from all of the older 4006's after they had been in-service for some time. The new 4006TSW's however, were supposedly ordered without them. I can't confirm that because I haven't looked inside one yet.

For someone who's trained to do so, it's so simple to remove the drawbar that it wouldn't make sense for anyone trained as an armorer (or especially as a gunsmith) to consider doing it any other way. I can break down the frame and have the drawbar out on the bench in a couple of minutes if I'm taking my time. Then the rivet can then be punched completely out of the drawbar, using a small pin punch, and then the spring lifted off the drawbar.

This is how easy it is to punch out the rivet holding the spring base onto the drawbar ...


... and this is how the new spring is installed and riveted in place ...






... and it should look like one of these when it's installed ...



The real trick not shown is inserting the itty-bitty, teeny tiny rivet in the hole on top of the spring, into the drawbar, and then keeping it there while you turn the drawbar over to secure the spring & rivet head against the top surface of the drawbar head, using the safe edge of the file as your working surface while you flatten the end of the rivet. It's not uncommon to need 2 rivets to perform the repair, since 1 is bound to get lost or mashed (and if the drawbar isn't held perfectly flat, upside down against the file's safe edge, with even pressure pressing the spring base & rivet head flat against the drawbar, the spring won't be securely fastened onto the drawbar head by the time you're done ).

Naturally, as with most other mechanical procedures it's relatively simple to do once you've been trained to do so and have successfully done it under the watchful eyes of someone teaching you to do it. I'm not suggesting anyone attempt to do it on their own without training, but just showing the images to give you an idea of what's involved when someone trained to make the repair does so ...
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  #22  
Old 10-25-2010, 02:17 PM
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Default 5906 spring

Fastbolt just found this from a year ago.
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Old 10-28-2010, 08:19 PM
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I recall either fastbolt telling me or reading somewhere on rivet retention...is use a small pc of scotch tape to hold the rivet in place when u turn the drawbar over for staking
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:24 PM
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I replaced mine for about $7. Thanks to fastbolt and few others for giving me the info and courage to do it. My 4506 is one of my favorite pistols.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:01 PM
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Thumbs up A simple fix...

My first post as a new member.

I know this is a late post to an old thread, but I wanted to say thanks for the good advice.

I have a police trade-in 4506-1 that was making that nasty "click" at the beginning of the single-action pull. I did a search for "4506 trigger", found this thread and very cautiously used a pencil to nudge that little spring forward a little.

The eraser end wouldn't do much (it just deformed), so I used the flat wooden end and used gradual, gentle, repeated pressures against the two fingers on the spring. As soon as I could see a change to the spring angle (slight forward rake), I stopped, and tested the trigger.

Perfect. No click. No broken spring, either.

Thanks much.

JP
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:13 PM
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I just had my 4506 tuned up and all new Springs and now the dreaded single action crunchy/Tick noise so i forwarded this info to my gunsmith and he is going to fix me up, thanks guys
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpoelzig View Post
My first post as a new member.

I know this is a late post to an old thread, but I wanted to say thanks for the good advice.
...
Perfect. No click. No broken spring, either.

Thanks much.

JP
Another first post from a new member. Thanks for the great advice on the trigger play spring. After a minor adjustment of the spring, my new to me 4506 no longer has the "click".

This 4506 has a little bit of wear to the finish, but it has the nicest DA/SA trigger pull of any of my pistols.




Thanks again and best regards,
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  #28  
Old 03-29-2011, 12:18 PM
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tagged for later reference, nice thread, thanks.
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2016, 05:00 PM
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I recently disassembled the frame on my 3913TSW for a thorough cleaning after using some ammo that seemed to produce a lot of burnt powder residue and upon reassembly noticed the click at the beginning of the single action pull. Found this thread and was able to correct the situation, so thought it might be worthwhile resurrecting the very useful info in case anyone might be experiencing the click with their 3rd gen.

Thank you Fastbolt for all the great info on the draw bar trigger play spring.
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  #30  
Old 03-02-2017, 10:30 PM
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This is very helpful information. Thanks
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  #31  
Old 03-04-2017, 01:43 PM
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I boogered mine up in a 411. I straightened it best I could with some needle nose pliars. Then one day at the range it broke off completely and jammed the action. I took it out and never replaced it. Works fine.

I then completely removed the one from my 1006 intentionally, figuring it is an Achilles heel in the design.
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Last edited by 7tenz; 03-04-2017 at 01:45 PM.
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