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Old 02-20-2021, 12:23 AM
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Is there an adjustment or modification to reduce the cylinder wear line. The cylinder stop comes up after a certain point when the trigger is pulled. If it comes up too early the bolt wears a line in the cylinder prematurely. I知 wondering if I have a cylinder stop tig welded on the edge that is cammed by the trigger, theoretically it would come up a later reducing the time the stop rides on the cylinder so that it starts to make contact in the lead in for the cylinder stop notch or is it inevitable and only a matter of time. Think I知 gonna send out some cylinder stops and hands and ratchets to have them tig welded for fitment to see if we can improve the action. If the hands are tig welded to increase the width so it fits the window snug and then finished with a stone to fit perfectly you could tighten the cylinder lock up


I know it痴 exaggerated not quite that much but you could shape it with a diamond file and then finish it a stone to make the finish nice and smooth

Last edited by Rolandag2; 02-20-2021 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 02-20-2021, 04:51 AM
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Not my area of knowledge, but in general the cylinder turn line is a necessary and universal finding in S & W revolvers. Some suggest breaking the sharp edges of the part that contacts the cylinder itself but I don't think there is a way to prevent it, short of not cycling or opening/closing the action.
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Old 02-20-2021, 06:09 AM
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The cylinder line is normal for a S&W revolver. I second murphydog's post.
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Old 02-20-2021, 07:34 AM
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Just breaking the square corner off at the very top the leading edge on the stop and polishing the top of it will minimize the line. You could probably delay the stop a bit, but trying to get it to pop up quick enough from a later start and positively lock back up could be problematic during rapid fire. More spring pressure might cause it to bounce. The way it is DESIGNED to work is the reason guys like Miculek and McGivern could do what they do. If you fire 5 rounds in .5 second the cylinder has to unlock spin one chamber and positively lock back up every .1 second.

Ever notice nobody sets these rapid fire records with Colt Pythons which have a more delayed lock up?
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:57 AM
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I hope you come back and let us know how much this cost and how long it took . . .

(edit: and if it worked . . . )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolandag2 View Post
Is there an adjustment or modification to reduce the cylinder wear line. The cylinder stop comes up after a certain point when the trigger is pulled. If it comes up too early the bolt wears a line in the cylinder prematurely. I知 wondering if I have a cylinder stop tig welded on the edge that is cammed by the trigger, theoretically it would come up a later reducing the time the stop rides on the cylinder so that it starts to make contact in the lead in for the cylinder stop notch or is it inevitable and only a matter of time. Think I知 gonna send out some cylinder stops and hands and ratchets to have them tig welded for fitment to see if we can improve the action. If the hands are tig welded to increase the width so it fits the window snug and then finished with a stone to fit perfectly you could tighten the cylinder lock up


I know it痴 exaggerated not quite that much but you could shape it with a diamond file and then finish it a stone to make the finish nice and smooth
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Last edited by Muss Muggins; 02-20-2021 at 09:01 AM. Reason: added a thought
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:57 AM
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There's a 1930's era letter from D. B. Wesson that gets posted here from time to time, addressing this very issue. He explains that it's not a bug, it's a feature. They wanted fast, positive lockup in light of then recent trends to faster shooting. They wanted the stop to disengage only long enough to release the cylinder and even increased the spring pressure to accomplish that end.

Everything is a trade off.
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Old 02-20-2021, 09:41 AM
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You have received good information regarding the cylinder stop as it was designed to operate. The stop comes up by a spring that must retain pressure on the cylinder (which creates the line) so when the cylinder notch is located by the cylinder stop it makes a secure hold. If the spring is weak then you may have less of a line but you also create a situation where the stop could release the cylinder when the gun is fired creating a big problem. There must be some wiggle room in the cylinder for this process to work properly. No doubt the engineers spent a lot of time and determined exactly how much of what is required for their revolvers to operate properly. You can file your cylinder stop and adjust your stop spring where it works smooth as butter and you get no line but that wont last long under firing conditions.
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Old 02-20-2021, 09:42 AM
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On the tighter lock up part. Your wanting to tighten up the lateral lockup shows you don't truly understand the function of how the cylinder forcing cone operates. With a 100% positive lock up the cylinder will have 0 movement. Wonderful you think? Only if that lock up occurs with each and everyone of the 6 chambers 100% aligned with the barrel. That is highly unlikely. A small amount of lateral movement is needed so as the bullet goes from the throat to the forcing cone the cylinder can move enough for bullet itself moving into the forcing cone with its base still in the chamber throat to cause that perfect alignment. If the chamber was off just a tiny bit and there was no lateral movement the bullet would have to cock slightly in order to continue. This would destroy its accuracy. So you best send your cylinder off along with you stop so that they can weld up the stop notches so you can make each and every one of them have exactly 100% the same relationship to its chamber so that when you have a precision range rod lock the cylinder in place to the barrel so you can get the perfect fit between cylinder notch, cylinder stop and the frames cut out for the cylinder stop

To achieve what? Can you currently shoot your revolvers as accurately are their capability? Spend some money on a Ransom Rest first. I bet you will be surprised just how accurate your revolver really is with the cylinder stop operating just the way it is. Try this cock the cock the gun in the rest then press the cylinder to one side, release it and fire the gun, now do it again only press the cylinder the other direction. Surprise. A 2'" barreled 38 special is already capable of hitting a pie plate at 100yds. Are you.? You would be better off spending your money on ammo and your time on practice.

Here is the rest I built.



My guns are farr more accurate than my abilities with stock cylinder stops trust me on this

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Old 02-20-2021, 12:33 PM
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The Turn Line on a S&W Cylinder (Colt's too) is absolutely normal. How severe that line is or gets is subject to a few things:

* Burrs on the side of the Cylinder Stop can be removed - but do NOT reshape or round off the edges as this will make the fit sloppy.

* The Spring that controls the Cyl. Stop could be bent, cut or monkeyed with or incorrect.

* The Cyl. Stop itself could be "off spec" - I have seen bad Cyl. Stops before and have replaced them.

* Make sure your Cyl is rotating symmetrically.

No matter what you do, there will eventually be a turn line - it's just part of the way Revolver operates. If you try and eliminate it, your Revolver will not operate correctly. Think of it like the wearing in of a good pair of leather shoes - there will always been stress lines in the leather. The only way to avoid them is to not wear them.
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:33 PM
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Cylinder lines are more a badge of honor that the revolver has been shot and not a safe queen.
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:33 PM
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Like already noted, the wear line is inevitable but it can be reduced some by a small trick I learned years ago. When closing the cylinder, do not rotate it by hand. Pull the hammer back to full cock then let it down. That minimizes the contact with the cylinder.
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolandag2 View Post
Is there an adjustment or modification to reduce the cylinder wear line. Think I知 gonna send out some cylinder stops and hands and ratchets to have them tig welded for fitment to see if we can improve the action. If the hands are tig welded to increase the width so it fits the window snug and then finished with a stone to fit perfectly you could tighten the cylinder lock up.
It might be a nice exercise in gunsmithing to play with the idea on a "spare" gun that you know already has a fairly nice action and good timing, but if it were really something that could be significantly improved without affecting reliability or performance, S&W would have done it 100 years ago. A turn line only affects the value of an ANIB collectible that's never been fired. Outside of that, it doesn't really matter. FWIW, I've never seen a revolver of any brand or condition that didn't have a turn line at all.

It's sort of like Cindy Crawford's little mole on her face. Just makes the rest of the package look even better.
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Old 02-20-2021, 02:14 PM
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AND BTW, It is wise to use a fine or extra fine Arkansas Stone to remove any Cyl. Stop Burrs if there are any rather than a file! Files remove too much metal too fast and leave a poor final finish. All you want to do is simply remove the Burr - NOT round metal off or change the part's shape.
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Old 02-20-2021, 03:20 PM
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Ok well I found out what I wanted thank you guys for all the info great information
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Old 02-20-2021, 05:09 PM
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Just an idea so don't laugh, but how about a small thin layer of plastic such as bed liner material on the cylinder stop. thin enough and slick enough to not reduce function. wouldn't a plastic surfaced cylinder stop reduce the line?
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Old 02-20-2021, 06:36 PM
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Not worrying about it has fixed it on every S&W I own. I got a couple that are basically safe queens. Not turning the cylinders on those is the best fix'
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Old 02-20-2021, 07:18 PM
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The finish will get worn no matter what material rubs on it.
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Old 02-20-2021, 07:44 PM
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A Colt V spring action like the Python properly set up will not leave a turn on the smooth part of the cylinder, just the lead in notch. The timing of it can be adjusted if you know how.close the cylinder properly and you’ll never get a line on the smooth area.
It as above the line is normal for a Smith.
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Old 02-20-2021, 07:58 PM
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Unknown to most S&W gun owners and wheel gun mechanics, but as you can see in the photographs, the top "frame side" of the cylinder stop ball is slightly taller than the "plate side", so the top of that particular edge is responsible for the dreaded turn line as it is in contact with the cylinder for part of the cylinder's rotation during operation.

This higher edge can be slightly "broken" or crowned, with a very fine stone and/or polished with crocus cloth if desired. This will have a mitigating affect on the worsening of the turn line during use. Remember folks, we're not talking about changing dimensions of the part here, only polishing the high side top edge of the ball of the stop.

Timing adjustments (contact and release by the trigger hook) are made to the stop by altering the bevel. The stop can also be "let out" slightly if desired by removing material from the adjustment step. This will allow the stop to move up slightly higher through the frame. Use caution, as the adjustment of the step also affects the relationship (position) of the bevel and it's interface with the trigger hook.








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Old 02-21-2021, 12:30 PM
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Fellows, how do we learn, at least I do by doing, hands on. Sometimes the questions I post is to get more information from far more knowledgeable people than myself. To be able to make an educated decision on whether what I知 trying to achieve is possible or not. I know that I can have the cylinder stop welded and reshaped, it will probably do what I want it to with any improvement to the accuracy so it痴 not worth it. The hands and ratchet being welded up is good practice to fitting hands and ratchets and I have spares and I always keep cylinders/ratchets and hands paired together from kits I buy so I know they worked together in the past. I do have a k frame that I知 practicing on but all my current k frames time up good and lock nice and do not spit lead, now with a match range rod they seem to be a bit out but the match range rod will go in and out with any interference when the hammer falls and the cylinder is locked up

Last edited by Rolandag2; 02-21-2021 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-21-2021, 09:26 PM
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I ask when I’m stumped wether the question is dumb or not.
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Old 02-21-2021, 11:46 PM
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Oh, don't worry about it I have had plenty of ideas and thoughts that didn't pan out. Not being curious and asking questions is a way bigger mistake.
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Old 02-22-2021, 01:18 AM
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It is my understanding that the cylinder stop ball operates in a narrow area of movement. The trigger pulls it down at the bevel to release the cylinder. The ball should not be retracted below the frame, as it could get hung up and not return to stop the cylinder on the next chamber. So, lengthening the bevel as in your drawing would do exactly that. And even then, there is not enough movement in the cylinder stop to retard the cylinder stop enough to mitigate much of the line, I don't believe. Its amazing how all the parts work together to make a smooth running dependable revolver. Sometimes messing with one part throws a monkey wrench in the works.
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:19 PM
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look at Armorer951's pics, take his and Steelslavers advise and slightly and I mean slightly radius the leading edge of the ball and lightly polish the top as well. The sharp edge of the ball will "scrape" the cylinder as it rotates. After polishing it will "slide" in stead of scrape. This will not eliminate, but will reduce the severity of turn line.
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Old 02-23-2021, 03:33 PM
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Post #8 in this thread from @steelsaver makes some very interesting points about how chamber alignment, lateral cylinder play, and the forcing cone all figure into revolver accuracy. And how in S&W revolvers, the cylinder lockup is not supposed to have zero lateral play.

Some years ago I read a post about the lockup in Freedom Arms (FA) revolvers which really helped my understanding of this issue. FA is known for making the most accurate revolvers. And this post described how FA pairs each cylinder with a specific frame. FA has a mechanism which locks each frame in place, and then uses the frame as a jig to cut the chambers in the cylinder. Each chamber is cut, one at a time, and every chamber in that cylinder gets perfect alignment with that frame.

When I read about this method, I thought that a valuable trade secret of Freedom Arms was being improperly leaked. But it turns out that FA publicizes this system, and they want people to know about it. They know full well that no production revolver could compete with this method, it would just be too slow to scale up economically. FA can do it since their revolvers are semi-custom pieces priced at $2000 and up.

Learning about this helped me understand that extremely tight lock up might not be desirable. As @steelsaver describes, a tiny amount of play can compensate for necessary manufacturing tolerances. And these tolerances allow S&W to deliver an affordable product which is still far more accurate than most people can shoot.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:49 AM
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A practical approach:

CYLINDER 全TOP TRACK MITIGATION AND CENTERING:

You'll see in other posts, that not all care about this issue and are quick to tell you. The cylinder line scribed by the cylinder stop is about the most obvious sign of wear. Not just a sign of shooting but also of cycling, opening for checking, or loading and unloading. If you aren't already aware, there are two things that you can do to mitigate or minimize cyl scribing or 壮top track:

1st HANDLING:

When you close the cylinder on a double action, with your left hand grasp it around the bottom of the frame with thumb and forefinger each in the cylinder flutes opposite each other. Position them at 3:00 and 9:00 o'clock just as the cylinder locks into place. The cyl stop will lock into the stop notch w/o having to rotate the cylinder with cyl stop rubbing on its surface. This will become a habit whenever you close a double action cylinder and you'll no longer have to think about doing it. This will prevent a FULL CYLINDER RING, limit it to an interrupted ring between cyl notches, and show a properly handled revolver.

2nd POLISHING THE CYLINDER STOP:

To mitigate 田ylinder stop track" for all SA and DA revolvers - preventative action you can take and the 1st thing I do on any revolver of mine, new or used is pull the cylinder (or open it, in the case of DAs) and polish the cylinder stop!

Many come with file marks just waiting to carve out a line and groove in your cylinder finish! Stainless guns are the worst, they can gouge like aluminum. I have to look at the cyl stop surface with a 10 power jeweler's loop or my 10x gunsmith glasses (which are excellent eye protection as well) to truly see if the stop needs polishing. What looks good to my naked eye can be bad enough to mark up the cylinder. The sharp stop edges can really do damage and don't need to be knife edge sharp to function properly with a nice tight lock up.

Swing out or remove the cyl and I mask off the frame and breech face all around the stop with blue masking tape because I use a Dremel tool and it can slip off the stop. I wear my gunsmith 10x glasses and look for any irregularities. If there are any marks, I use a VERY FINE abrasive wheel in the Dremel tool to polish out the file marks, etc. I only advocate the fine abrasive wheel for removing tool marks in the surface of the bolt which can be pretty rough. It works very well in experienced hands and it's quicker; about 5 seconds. But I don't break the sharp edges with the abrasive wheel. And now is the time to change the contour of the stop ball if it needs slight re-contouring to center the 壮top track in the cylinder notch leads and around the cyl. The highest point of the ball is where the 壮top track is scribed. If the track is to the rear of center, a slight amount must be removed at the rear of the center of the ball to move the high point forward.

If no file marks, I go straight to polishing. With a little felt buffing wheel in the Dremel and white rouge (used for stainless steel) I put a mirror finish on the top surface. This is when I also address the sharp edges; I leave them nice and square but just dull the knife edge with the buffing wheel and the rouge. And I don't overdo it.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:51 AM
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Just got a brand new, in the box, never fired 431PD and it already had a turn line. I guess I will have to keep looking for that magic Smith without one.
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