1911 Question

bassoneer · #1 08-30-2009, 08:37 PM

I recently acquired a Series 70 Colt Combat Commander in good condition. I know it's not a S&W, but I have S&W revolvers and have come to trust the folks on this forum, so I'm asking here hoping that somebody can advise me. I don't know that much about 1911's, actually not much at all. I fired this gun quite a bit with round ball ammo and it did fine and was very accurate. However, it doesn't like hollow points. I took it to a gun smith and he said it needs ramp work and polishing, and he showed me how a Kimber looked on the inside compared to this old gun and it is obvious that it is different. He said that this will make it feel hollow points like a champ and it will be very reliable. He also recommended that I go with a full length guide rod and bushing and I agreed, but wanted to keep the old guide rod since it was original. He also said he could replace a little piece on the side that is held on with two pins (extractor?) that will make the casings go out to the side instead of straight up in the air (and in my face). He is also replacing a pin that holds the little ring onto the barrel and fitting some things together better.

You guys that know about 1911's...does all this sound right? I like the thought of an all original gun, but not if it won't feed hollow points. I want a reliable gun and I was assured this would do it. Also, this gun has a satin nickel finish, and once the gunsmith grinds and polishes on the ramp, won't that rust (without the nickle)? Maybe the nickel was already worn off from the ammo scraping across it for the last 30 years? Any advice? Sounds like I'll get a much more reliable gun, but I don't like leaving a (new to me) gun with a gunsmith for several weeks. Thanks, B

Aussie44 · #2 08-30-2009, 09:05 PM

Sounds Right,The last thing you mention is the barrel link and pin.The barrel on the older 1911's need to be opened up to feed hollow points,they were only designed to feed FMJ.As you noticed when he showed you the Kimber the newer 1911's come already done at the factory.The rest are accuracy and reliabilty orientated,If done right it will be a great pistol.You might not get too much improvement with accuracy without going to a new barrel.

Ken

Joni_Lynn · #3 08-30-2009, 09:06 PM

Full length guide rods do pretty much nothing except put money other peoples pockets.

BruceM · #4 08-30-2009, 09:29 PM

+1 on not needing a full length guide rod. They're pretty much a marketing ploy IMO although currently very popular.

Bruce

haggis · #5 08-30-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joni_Lynn

Full length guide rods do pretty much nothing except put money other peoples pockets.

A solution looking for a problem.

Buck

TonyR · #6 08-30-2009, 09:36 PM

Be very carful who you let tinker with your 1911. Changing to a full lenght guide rod does nothing for the pistol. changing the barrel link length and fitting a new barrel bushing changes the geometry of the barrel and its relationship to the feed ramp. Polishing the ramp is OK as long as its just polished. If too much metal is removed or the angle of the ramp is changed you can throw away the frame !!! If the casings are falling in front of you or hitting your head it is probable that your recoil spring is the wrong poundage. Changing the disconector is not the right fix. You may need extractor fitting. Get an itemized list of the work he intends to do along with costs and some written guaranty. If you need a name of a 1911 wizard I can provide you with his name and number .Good luck, TonyR

shawn mccarver · #7 08-30-2009, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassoneer

I recently acquired a Series 70 Colt Combat Commander in good condition. I know it's not a S&W, but I have S&W revolvers and have come to trust the folks on this forum, so I'm asking here hoping that somebody can advise me. I don't know that much about 1911's, actually not much at all. I fired this gun quite a bit with round ball ammo and it did fine and was very accurate. However, it doesn't like hollow points.

Needs a reliability package: throat, polish, tune extractor, etc.

I took it to a gun smith and he said it needs ramp work and polishing, and he showed me how a Kimber looked on the inside compared to this old gun and it is obvious that it is different. He said that this will make it feel hollow points like a champ and it will be very reliable. He also recommended that I go with a full length guide rod and bushing

Absolutely do NOT do this. Not necessary for any purpose except the gunsmith selling snake oil. In addition, it makes it impossible to disassemble without a bushing wrench, and one of the best things about the 1911 is the ability to field strip without tools. Finally, in a full size 1911, the FLGR makes it impossible to run the slide one-handed by using a hard surface on the lower edge of the slide.

and I agreed, but wanted to keep the old guide rod since it was original. He also said he could replace a little piece on the side that is held on with two pins (extractor?) that will make the casings go out to the side instead of straight up in the air (and in my face).

See extractor tune mentioned above.

He is also replacing a pin that holds the little ring onto the barrel and fitting some things together better.

Not necessary.

You guys that know about 1911's...does all this sound right? I like the thought of an all original gun, but not if it won't feed hollow points. I want a reliable gun and I was assured this would do it. Also, this gun has a satin nickel finish, and once the gunsmith grinds and polishes on the ramp, won't that rust (without the nickle)? Maybe the nickel was already worn off from the ammo scraping across it for the last 30 years? Any advice? Sounds like I'll get a much more reliable gun, but I don't like leaving a (new to me) gun with a gunsmith for several weeks. Thanks, B

See comments above in the text for answers to your questions.

The job described should not take that long. You are better off sending it to the Springfield Custom Shop, Wilson's, the Gunsite Gunsmithy or Cylinder & Slide.

TonyR · #8 08-30-2009, 09:51 PM

Or how about back to Colt.

shawn mccarver · #9 08-30-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR

Or how about back to Colt.

That is the best of all worlds!

m1gunner · #10 08-30-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyR

Be very carful who you let tinker with your 1911.

Polishing the ramp is OK as long as its just polished. If too much metal is removed or the angle of the ramp is changed you can throw away the frame !!!

The frame can be easily turned to junk by a botched "ramp job".

If it were mine, I would get a new barrel and have it fitted and polished and throated so it would feed the bullets I use. And would keep the old barrel as is.

Extractor tune and a recoil spring suited for intended ammo should make it run like a champ.

Aussie44 · #11 08-30-2009, 10:35 PM

[QUOTE=m1gunner;1076899]The frame can be easily turned to junk by a botched "ramp job"[QUOTE]

That's not quite true,You can install a ramped barrel to save the frame.But everything else you said is good advice.

Ken

500 Magnum Nut · #12 08-30-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m1gunner

If it were mine, I would get a new barrel and have it fitted and polished and throated so it would feed the bullets I use. And would keep the old barrel as is.

Extractor tune and a recoil spring suited for intended ammo should make it run like a champ.

I agree, have him put a new barrel in the gun, without the full lenght guide rod. Keep the original barrel as a spare or a hard baller barrel. Tune the extractor & fix the ejector if it needs it.

To replace the barrel is cheap, and at least he won't bucher up the original barrel or mess with the ramp.

wheelgunnut · #13 08-30-2009, 10:50 PM

If you're a nut about originality (like me), don't mess with the 1911 and simply shoot round ball. You mentioned RN is reliable. Right. That's what the 1911 was designed for. Should you wish to employ a more effective round for defensive purposes, get yourself a nice SIG. It'll feed anything.

borntoraisehogs · #14 08-30-2009, 11:19 PM

I have Colts and Kimbers and if you have a Colt that will reliably shoot 230gr jacket hardball and you let anybiody touch it . You will be sorry . My crowd all shoot the same ammo , on the same mag and all our guns either shoot 230 hardball out of the box , Kimbers and some Colts, but all can be reliable 230 grain shooters . I love My Kinbers , but I will be surprised if they ever have the appeal as the old Colts . i would no more let a gun butcher alter a reliable Colt 1911 than I would let someone magna port my S serial 29-2 6 1/2 . Over someones dead body .

bassoneer · #15 08-31-2009, 06:04 AM

You guys know your stuff. Thanks for all the advice. I got similar warnings on the guide rod replacement on a couple other forums as well, so I am calling the gun smith today and having them remove the guide rod from the ticket.

This gun is not pristine and not worthy of being a collector's item...it has been shot a lot and the satin nickle finish isn't that pretty any longer. It is going to be my carry gun and I don't care if it gets a scratch or two, but I want it to be reliable, so...I am going to proceed with the gunsmith fixing the ramp, ejector and pin issues. This particular gun smith warned me also about removing too much meat from the ramp area and how bad that would be. And the link pin could be removed with your fingernail, so I believe it to be worn out. I was the one that asked about the extractor issue, and they also mentioned the spring with less poundage. All in all, I think they will do a good job, but I'm not doing the full length guide rod. I never asked for it anyway. Thanks, B

SPC · #16 08-31-2009, 10:27 AM

I stumbled into a Wilson Full Length Guide Rod kit for $20 and went for it. Eventually, I wound up throwing the Guide Rod to the street and just using the shok buff's and the 20# spring. Good springs and a good extractor can take a cheap 1911 and turn it into a very reliable and accurate weapon. That said, I've got a wilson drop in barrel and my RIA will feed anything, absolutely anything.

H Richard · #17 08-31-2009, 12:36 PM

Be cautious with shock buff's. Some of them will swell over time and cause drag inside the slide. I had one swell and split, causing complete malfunction. I no longer use shock buff's in my 1911's.

buckeyeshooter1 · #18 08-31-2009, 01:40 PM

I'm with M1 gunner --- let them throat a replacement barrel. With the original parts saved you preserve the collecor value and investment in your colt. Also, I would just go with a throating and polishing to get hollowpoints to feed. The other items mentioned are not needed to improve the pistols performance and frankly hurt the investment you have made. Heck, if it were me, I would just use hardball. Its proven itself for almost 100 years in the millitary.

SPC · #19 08-31-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H Richard

Be cautious with shock buff's. Some of them will swell over time and cause drag inside the slide. I had one swell and split, causing complete malfunction. I no longer use shock buff's in my 1911's.

Thanks for the warning. I noticed a bit of swelling on the first one that I replaced after ~800rds, but haven't noticed any problem since going to changing them every 500rds.

Aussie44 · #20 09-01-2009, 01:42 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with everyone and say Full lenght guide rods are not useless.First thing I do is turf the original and always fit a full lenght rod.I have never had probs with them and function was always 100%.also no more springs with a bend.

Ken

haggis · #21 09-01-2009, 02:13 PM

While I certainly don't want to disallow anyone their personal choice, I would like to list my reasons for not having a FLGR in a 5" 1911, especially one used as a defensive weapon.

1. First, and foremost, the FLGR interferes with racking the slide one-handed against a shoe, belt, or any other resistive object that presents itself during a gunfight. We don't envisage having an arm disabled in a fight, but it does happen, and having a way to recharge the gun might keep you alive.

2. The 1911 was designed to be fully disassembled with no tools except its own parts. The design of some FLGRs requires special tools just to field strip the gun.

3. The spring in a conventional 5" 1911 is unsupported over about a half inch of its length while at rest. For all practical purposes, it is fully supported during its recoil cycle. There have been no conclusive studies done that show FLGRs improve reliability. My own KISS principle is that the least mechanical complexity naturally gives more reliability, so FLGRs, right-side safeties, extended slide releases, shok-buffs, and the like are not on any of my carry 5" 1911's.

The best 5" 1911 I own is a Wilson CQB designed for the purpose its name suggests. It has a standard guide rod, no right-side safety, no extended slide release, and no shok-buff. It functions flawlessly, and the company guarantees that it will hold 1½" at 25 yards, far better than I can shoot.

Buck

38-44HD45 · #22 09-01-2009, 03:16 PM

Your gunsmith is full of ****. My rationale: He suggested a useless full-length guide rod, he suggested replacing the ejector (the extractor is in the slide, and is held in by the firing pin stop, not by pins), and he suggested "polishing" a nickle frame ramp, and missed COMPLETELY the major problem with where cases are thrown, your extractor. A tiny bit of polishing, not through the nickle, would be okay, and might help, but nickle is slicker than steel, anyway, and I've made lots of "rough" nickle 1911s feed hollowpoints slick as snot. Real gunsmiths know a full length guide rod does nothing for reliability. Unless your ejector is broken, it shouldn't need replacing, though reshaping it might help.

Where a 1911 throws empties is a function of ejector length and shape, extractor tension and shape of its contact surfaces (the biggest contributor), recoil spring strength and rate, and mainspring strength, along with the recoil impulse of whatever round you choose to shoot, and to some degree, how the shooter holds the gun. It is not too hard to set up properly, usually, for someone who knows what he's doing. A smith who tells you the kind of things you've heard is NOT that person!

BTW: Did you try hollowpoints, before going to the alleged gunsmith, or are you taking him at his word that it needs his tender ministrations to feed them? It might not. Sometimes, a good magazine, like a Wilson, Tripp or McCormick PowerMag will feed hollowpoint ammo when Colt mags won't. Replacing the barrel bushing might actually be a good thing, as most Commanders and Combat Commanders have pretty loose ones from the factory. However, too tight is not good, and a stock Commander barrel needs turning down by .002-.004" behind the front .375" of the barrel for a match bushing to be reliable. If you're not going to shoot Bullseye with it, the stock bushing is likely fine, too.

Also, if I understood your post, it sounds like he's planning on replacing the barrel link pin. (The barrel link is held onto the bottom of the chamber portion of the barrel, between the barrel feet, by the link pin. The link was all I could figure out that you might mean by "little ring.") Unless the pin is damaged, I can think of no reason to do that.

Spotteddog · #23 09-01-2009, 03:26 PM

Also, only to add to what 38/44 wrote.
Many so called "duty" rear sights are getting away from being fully "no snag" designs. In fact many now tout theirs having 90 degree (but dehorned) forward facing surfaces. These allow racking of the slide on an available object, if required to do so with a wounded wing.

phils · #24 09-01-2009, 03:33 PM

Aussie,
The only trouble I've ever had with a shockbuff is one turned to little hard rubber pieces.

phils · #25 09-01-2009, 03:38 PM

I would recommend Cylinder and Slide in Fremont Ne. Call for Bill.
Make a list of what you want and send it,asking for a quote.
Bill Laughridge does great work.

Aussie44 · #26 09-01-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phils

Aussie,
The only trouble I've ever had with a shockbuff is one turned to little hard rubber pieces.

I don't use shock buffs???
If the owner wants to put them in fine.

Ken

PALADIN85020 · #27 09-01-2009, 04:10 PM

About 9 years ago, I wrote a piece on reliability tuning the 1911 pistol. You may want to read it:

1911 Reliability Secrets

John

Aussie44 · #28 09-01-2009, 04:30 PM

John,Great artical and well written.

Ken

NE450No2 · #29 09-01-2009, 04:58 PM

There is no doubt that your factory 1911 needs some work.

I would send it to a Gunsmith that specialized in 1911's.

I do not use a full length guide rod on a carry gun, except for on my Colt Officers model.

It is a complete system. The recoil spring plunger on the Officers Model has a small lump that holds the spring in place.
They are prone to break. The recoil spring system I use eleminates that weakness.

ftufton · #30 09-01-2009, 05:30 PM

I have had two over the years, a 9mm and a 45 ACP. Both excellent.

You can polish the feed ramp with some very fine, 400 grit paper your finger and patience.

Both weapons fed with out fail, carried well and I would not have been afraid to have to rely on the for defense.

At 15-20 yards, I could bounce beer cans with the 9mm.

Joni_Lynn · #31 09-01-2009, 05:34 PM

Nice article. Thanks for the link.

haggis · #32 09-01-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALADIN85020

About 9 years ago, I wrote a piece on reliability tuning the 1911 pistol. You may want to read it:

1911 Reliability Secrets

John

John,

Nice article. I think I made a copy of it back in 2002. Thanks for posting it for those folks who have not seen it.

Buck

shovelwrench · #33 09-01-2009, 09:25 PM

If your gun shoots ball well, leave the whole gun alone.

I have more then one 1911 that the link pin falls out of, one of the beauties of JMBs design is everything is held in place by something else. The frame retains the link pin, if you want, have him stake the one that is there.

It sounds to me like you have a perfectly functioning 1911 on your hands (aside from not being designed to run hollowpoints).

I suggest you work with the gun for a while longer, do some research into the 1911 platform, decide what you want, and or need, and then make some decisions on where you want to go with the gun.

As far as throwin brass at your head....Have him tune the extractor and leave the rest alone for awhile.

Aussie44 · #34 09-02-2009, 09:04 AM

I find it funny that people mention FLGR for self defence issues..You can't rack the slide back by pushing against something in case your shooting arm gets hit.When one of the most used Auto's for police, The Glock and many others -S&W,Sig,Ruger ect ect all have a FLGR.????.The Comments just don't make sense.

Ken

TonyR · #35 09-02-2009, 11:35 AM

ok, educate me. You are a proffessional gun smith, please explain to me the pros and cons of a FLGR in a 1911 pistol. Thanks, TonyR

38-44HD45 · #36 09-02-2009, 12:00 PM

FLGR Pros: 1. Adds a touch of weight, slightly reducing recoil.
2. Adds money to the pockets of those selling them.
3. May be necessary in guns with reverse recoil spring plugs,
or very short spring tunnels, like Detonics or Officer's ACP.

FLGR Cons: 1. Adds unnecessary weight.
2. Prevents proper pinch-check.
3. Prevents one-hand slide rack.
4. Makes disassembly more difficult.

I may have missed a pro or a con, but those are what jump to the front of my tired, old brain.

Aussie44 · #37 09-02-2009, 12:10 PM

A well fitted FLGR will improve the consistency of the gun and the rigidity of the gun, and the frame to slide movement.
FLGR allows you to use a much heavier or much lighter recoil spring without worrying about a spring kinking.
Many other pistols (SIG, Glock, S&W, BHP etc..) have them,they are not unreliable
In any 1911 variant shorter than a Commander, they are a necessity to avoid spring binding with the heavier recoil springs
Competition guns where thousands of rounds will be fired through them with frame battering loads they have them
1911s chambered in 10mm or higher pressured rounds will batter the hell out the frame and can crack the frame of the gun
Bill Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown, STI, Strayer Voight, Para-Ordnance, S&W performance center, Springfield, and Kimber build almost all their guns with guide rods.
There isn't a single major USPSA competitor I know of who doesn't use a full length guide rod
Reliability and accuracy are critical to winning in these competitions

Negatives
John Moses Browning didn't design it that way
Arm chair experts say so.

Ken

Aussie44 · #38 09-02-2009, 12:14 PM

I am not trying to convince anyone to go buy one and have it installed,That's your choice.But don't call them ****,They have their place.

Ken

Aussie44 · #39 09-02-2009, 12:24 PM

1. Adds unnecessary weight. Not noticable
2. Prevents proper pinch-check. You can't use the cocking serrations
3. Prevents one-hand slide rack. See answer for Q2

Ken

38-44HD45 · #40 09-02-2009, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie44

I am not trying to convince anyone to go buy one and have it installed,That's your choice.But don't call them ****,They have their place.

Ken

I didn't call them ****. In fact, at present, the 9x23 converted Aegis on my hip has one. I believe I said the the OP's gunsmith was full of ****.

FWIW, a pinch check does not use cocking serrations, and the one-handed slide rack doesn't, either.

Aussie44 · #41 09-02-2009, 12:32 PM

FWIW, a pinch check does not use cocking serrations, and the one-handed slide rack doesn't, either.[/QUOTE]

I know,It was an option...

Ken

Aussie44 · #42 09-02-2009, 12:38 PM

I have a sheet with all options a customer can view and tell me and tick what they want installed on their guns.If they ask for advice on a part I don't say use brand X and don't use brand Y,I tell them what works for me and others and let them decide.Never screw a customer,You'll only do it once and word gets around.

Ken

38-44HD45 · #43 09-02-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie44

I have a sheet with all options a customer can view and tell me and tick what they want installed on their guns.If they ask for advice on a part I don't say use brand X and don't use brand Y,I tell them what works for me and others and let them decide.Never screw a customer,You'll only do it once and word gets around.

Ken

Amen. Good business practice.

james56 · #44 09-04-2009, 10:06 PM

My Springfeild mil-spec 1911-A1 eats everything up and is very accurate. All the other 1911 shooters here @ our range cant believe they went out and spent all the money they did on Kimbers and Sig's and the other fancy customes 1911 mine blows them away a real baster is what they call it. Some even are selling theirs now and either getting a Springer or have one already!!
LOVE them Springers

bassoneer · #45 09-06-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james56

My Springfeild mil-spec 1911-A1 eats everything up and is very accurate. All the other 1911 shooters here @ our range cant believe they went out and spent all the money they did on Kimbers and Sig's and the other fancy customes 1911 mine blows them away a real baster is what they call it. Some even are selling theirs now and either getting a Springer or have one already!!
LOVE them Springers

It this old Colt had not been offered to me, I was going to get a Springfield. I actually sold a Springfield XDm .40 to fund part of the Colt. In the future, I plan to get another XDm (when it comes out in .45) and also a Springfield Loaded 1911. They are great guns. B