Shipping to gun smith?

[jtcarm]

I need to shop a handgun to an out of state Smith.

I’ve never done this before and the GS wasn’t real clear on what carrier/shipping method I could use.

These UPS weenies seem to delight in telling me I can’t ship a handgun.

Thanks.

[Fishinfool]

Find a local FFL who will ship it for you USPS, insured. A lot cheaper and easier than playing the Fed Ex / UPS game. UPS / FED EX require expensive next day shipping, and will only accept handguns that are brought to shipping hubs. The next day shipping rule is not required by federal law, just a way for these shipping companies to make a few extra bucks, and help cut down on their own employee theft of firearms.

Larry

[murphydog]

As an individual you can ship a handgun by UPS or FedEx, but...it has to go Next Day Air or Priority Overnight and only via a company-owned, full-time staffed location (no shipping centers in a strip mall).

That said, best to use USPS as noted above.

[H Richard]

I shipped a target pistol to a repair shop (Also a Pawn Shop with gunsmith) a few months ago for repair, by FedEx. Insured for $600 cost me around $20 I think. They did verify on-line the receiver and said that is a Pawn Shop, until I explained the gunsmith. No problem.

[Waveski]

I have shipped via FedEx a number of times , no problem , no next day requirement , reasonable rates. You can ship from a FFL if you wish , but you don't have to.

[murphydog]

My understanding is the rule about next day delivery is an internal company policy and many are allowed to ship using less expensive services, hopefully without problems with an insurance claim if the package is lost...

[Igiveup]

How does one receive the revolver in return? Must it go to an FFL or can it be returned to one's address?

[Crew Leader]

I have shipped back to Smith & Wesson, and shipped to Mark Smith (Precision Bluing). Neither required going through an FFL. At the time Precision Bluing was in New York, and has since moved to North Carolina I believe due to shipping law changes. May need to check state laws pertaining to shipping. Any time I shipped, they were overnighted to the factory or to Precision Bluing, and in turn they were shipped directly back to me. Just my experience.....

[2152hq]

A Fed licensed Gunsmith (they need either an 01FFL or an 07 FFL) can ship the same (or a replacement firearm) back to the original owner. No need to go through an FFL at the original owners end.

There is no 'transfer of ownership of the firearm' so there is no need for an FFL to recv the firearm that was repaired, do a 4473 & NICS check on it just to give it back to the orig owner.

Been doing this for 50yrs,,recently retired.

Check State laws,,
Shockingly !.... NYS is one that requires that any Handgun sent to a Gunsmith in NYS be sent FROM another FFL if it is coming from out of state.
My 'book' had to show recv of a handgun for gunsmith work incl Engraving as coming from an FFL if it came from outside NYS.

If coming from with in NYS, it has to come from the person upon whos NYS Pistol Permit the handgun is registered and shows, OR from another FFL licensed address in NYS.

Those NYS FFLs ALSO need additional 'NYS Dealer Licenses' to buy/sell handguns.
They also need additional 'NYS Gunsmith Licenses' to do those type operations.
These latter NYS licenses are 3yr re-ups, 6+mo renewal wait and not cheap.(Same process as getting a carry permit, but done every 3 years,,pics,prints, character refs, background chk, ect.)
I'm done.

[okiegtrider]

Timely information for me. Am contemplating the shipment of one of my own to a gunsmith in another state. Thanks all!

[Hapworth]

Shipping a handgun to an out-of-state gunsmith you have two options:

1) Ship yourself via FedEx or UPS.

Pros:

a) You have total control of the handgun, how it's packed, who has access to it, etc., until handing off to the actual shipper.

b) The handgun can legally be shipped by the gunsmith directly back to you.

Cons:

a) You're beholden to whatever internal policies FedEx and UPS enforce, usually that you have to ship overnight or next-day air and you have to ship from a central hub, not a standard store -- so there's increased costs and possibly geographic inconvenience.

or...

2) Have an FFL/dealer ship.

Pros:

a) Generally costs less as FFLs can ship handguns through USPS (non-FFLs cannot), and whichever carrier they use, don't have to ship overnight.

b) FFL/dealers generally handle all the packing for you.

c) Because the handgun must be shipped back to the address that sent it, you know someone will be at the FFL/dealer to sign for it and you won't have to arrange a day around being available for delivery.

Cons:

a) You don't have much say in how your firearms is packed before sending, and what is done with it before shipping.

b) Along with shipping costs most FFL/dealers charge a transfer fee shipping out (and some charge it again coming back).

c) Because the handgun must be shipped back to the address that sent it (FFL/dealer), you have to go through a background check to legally receive your own firearm from the FFL/dealer when it returns.

[2152hq]

"..c) Because the handgun must be shipped back to the address that sent it (FFL/dealer), you have to go through a background check to legally receive your own firearm from the FFL/dealer when it returns..."

You shouldn't have to go thru a 4473/NICS check to get your firearm back if it was originally left with this FFL as a 'Repair'.
The FFL is not doing a 3rd party transfer of ownership.

The fact that the FFL you left it with then sends it out to another FFL/Gunsmith for the actual work does not alter the fact that there was no 'change in ownership' of the firearm' nor was it originally left with the FFL for such purpose (as in a consignment sale).
The Book in/Book out that both FFL's must do in handling the firearm is still there, and should reflect the travels of the firearm.

Lots of FFL's adv 'Gunsmithing' but never touch a firearm in their own shop. Everything is sent out. Some, just certain jobs and specialty work.
The FFL you drop the gun off with or sometimes send it to, is mearly a middleman and takes a cut of the profit for being so. Even the BigBoys often do this.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by 2152hq

"..c) Because the handgun must be shipped back to the address that sent it (FFL/dealer), you have to go through a background check to legally receive your own firearm from the FFL/dealer when it returns..."

You shouldn't have to go thru a 4473/NICS check to get your firearm back if it was originally left with this FFL as a 'Repair'.
The FFL is not doing a 3rd party transfer of ownership.

The fact that the FFL you left it with then sends it out to another FFL/Gunsmith for the actual work does not alter the fact that there was no 'change in ownership' of the firearm' nor was it originally left with the FFL for such purpose (as in a consignment sale).
The Book in/Book out that both FFL's must do in handling the firearm is still there, and should reflect the travels of the firearm.

Lots of FFL's adv 'Gunsmithing' but never touch a firearm in their own shop. Everything is sent out. Some, just certain jobs and specialty work.
The FFL you drop the gun off with or sometimes send it to, is mearly a middleman and takes a cut of the profit for being so. Even the BigBoys often do this.

That's what I thought too, but I looked into this.

Dealer/FFLs keeps different books than gunsmiths. Gunsmith books -- and this is a complete contradiction in law/regulation -- don't have to account for transfer of the firearm; dealers do, despite the fact that in both instances anything can have changed in the owner's legal status during the time without the firearm.

My understanding is that when ATF was determining the regulations, gunsmithing guilds lobbied heavily for an exception lest they lose business to folks having to go through background checks every time they use a gunsmith. ATF conceded for 'smiths and no one else.

So yes, if you use a dealer to ship, consign, etc., a transfer occurs and when you collect your firearm a background check has to be performed.

[2152hq]

With all do respect,,no you do not have to go thru a 4473 and NICS check to get your gun back from from the FFL when the repair FFL ships it back to them.

I've kept both a Dealer (01FFL Buy/Sell) Bound Book,,,and a separate Gunsmithing/Repair (under the same 01FFL) Bound Book starting in 1971.
I've had many, many ATF compliance checks along the way.

The Dealer book keeps track of 'Transfer of Ownership' (That's the key,,when a Non-FFL, takes possession of the gun),,That requires a 4473/NICS

Gunsmiths Book keeps track of the gun during Repair and it can ONLY go betw other FFL's for work. There is NO transfer of Ownership. Sending the gun betw FFL's is NOT Transfer of Ownership. The 01FFL Gunsmith cannot send or give the gun(frame) to a Non-FFL for gunsmithing work
There is no 4473/NICS done.,,the gun always stays in the possession of an FFL as a "Repair'.
>
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There was no lobbying back in '67/68 or otherwise to get special treatment for Gunsmiths as far as record keeping. This is what the GCA came up with all on their own and has not changed since the '68 law came to be.

The only major things that have changed is that the requirement to keep a 3rd bound book of Ammunition Sales was dropped in 1986 (most people don't even recall or know that one even existed).
The only time I ever got a inspection of that Bound Book was during the Son of Sam spree. They were looking for purchasers of Western brand 44spl ammo.

The other change and the one that the Gunsmiths did speak up about in Congressional Hearings on the subject was the need to pay Fed Excise Tax on the 'mfg of a firearm' when doing some gunsmithing operations that the IRS (NOT BATF) had decided were 'mfg of a firearm'.

That whole thing started with the Fed lawsuit against contemporary muzzle loader rifle maker John Bivins and his Penn Bicentennial group of M/Ldr long rifles.
The IRS wanted FET on those muzzleloaders (non-firearms under Fed law). Bivins saw it otherwise and fought the Feds in court ...and lost. It broke him financially and probably helped him to an early death as well (the latter point only my opinion of course).
The IRS then decided that since they won the FET case against Bivins and M/Ldrs, that cartridge gun gunsmithing was also a target for FET $$. The IRS wanted small gunsmiths (01FFL's) to pay FET on gunsmithing work.
Such things as rebluing, re-bbling, engraving, restocking, ect were all classified as 'mfg of a firearm' and the FET was due on the new value of the 'mfg'd' firearm. The list was long.

The gunsmith community fought back and the result was a new exemption (might be what you are refering to) that exempts the first 50 units mfg'rd by a Gunsmith (01 or 07 FFL) from FET per calendar yr.
If you mfg 51+ units,,you owe FET on those 51+ units not just #51.
SDH who posts frequently on this forum was one who went before Congress on behalf of the Gunsmithing community .

Long story, I know, but that's the special exemption if you can call it that for gunsmiths.
It's not all for gunsmiths,,it's for their customers because that's who the FETax would be paid by,,just like salestax, the gunsmith would only be the collection agent and pass it along to the IRS.
A pain and paperwork for the Gunsmith,,and the FET an extra 10% on Handguns and 11% on your Longgun's 'New Value' after the work is done.

On a repair,,no 4473 or NICS is done upon the return of the firearm to the orig owner by the orig FFL that took it in.
Doesn't matter if the FFL is only a middle man or actually does the work.
He should log the gun in as a Repair,,not an Acquisition.

If one of the FFL/Gunsmiths that the work is farmed out to for some reason is going to return the gun to the orig owner,,then that FFL/Gunsmith has to send it to an FFL in the owners state where a 4473/NICS check is done to transfer is back over to the owner.
That FFL didn't orig recv the firearm from the owner,,can't send it back to the owner.

Guns taken in on Consignment or for a Pawn/Loan can not be returned to their orig owner unless a 4473/NICS check is done.
Those guns are booked in to the Dealers Book as an 'Acquisition'.
They are 'For Sale' or were exchanged for a cash loan.
If they don't sell, the owner wants it back, or what ever business agreement the shop does with the owner is outside anything the BATF regulates. All the BATF sees is that the gun is now 'transfering ownership' so a 4473/NICS check must be done.

[BearBio]

I have shipped firearms to smiths several times. Assuming the smith has an FFL(almost all do!), you ship to him directly. Don't trust UPS==the IDIOT behind the counter convinced me once to go through a local FFL==to get it back, the smith had to return it to the local FFL==then the state wanted tax on the value of the gun! Then I copied UPS regs and took them with me (They even have a poster on the wall on how to do it==I had to read it to her!). Now, I get the receiving FFL and take it with me (keeping a copy for myself).

[BearBio]

Addendum: STATE laws me have different requirements. WA state requires if it is returned to an FFL, they view it as a transfer (i.e. for sales tax)

[Borderboss]

I shipped a handgun to Clark Custom (that's how I addressed it) two weeks ago via FedEx. I went to the local FedEx store (used to be Kinko's) and handed it to the person at the counter. They never asked what was in the box, and I never offered the information. I gave them the insurance amount ($500) and sent it second day air because it was only $38 instead of $100 for next day air. I was out of there in under five minutes, and FedEx had no idea they were shipping a gun.

One thing to make absolutely sure of is that you don't put anything referring to a gun on the package. Notice I addressed my package to "Clark Custom", not "Clark Custom Guns". I didn't like that their address is on "Shootout Lane", but that can't be helped. So if you're shipping to a place named "Joe's Gunsmithing Services", then put "Joe's Services" on the package.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by 2152hq

With all do respect,,no you do not have to go thru a 4473 and NICS check to get your gun back from from the FFL when the repair FFL ships it back to them.

...

Excellent and informative post; I think we're in overall agreement but talking past one another on one important distinction: what of the FFL/dealers who ship but don't offer gunsmithing services or have those books?

Most FFL/dealers, i.e., local gun stores, operate that way, essentially as retailers. These are the FFL/dealers who offer shipping services but have to accept -- whether the firearm is going to a gunsmith or buyer -- the firearm onto their dealer books and this involves a transfer going and coming.

[Basque1]

Originally Posted by murphydog

As an individual you can ship a handgun by UPS or FedEx, but...it has to go Next Day Air or Priority Overnight and only via a company-owned, full-time staffed location (no shipping centers in a strip mall).

That said, best to use USPS as noted above.

Exactly, it is a premium price but it will get there, and don't forget the insurance!!

[Borderboss]

Originally Posted by murphydog

That said, best to use USPS as noted above.

Sorry, but the USPS is the last method I would use. Out of USPS, UPS, and FedEx, USPS by far is the one most likely to lose the package.