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Smith & Wesson Competitive Shooting All aspects of competitive shooting using Smith and Wesson Firearms. Including: IPSC, IDPA, Silhouette, Bullseye.


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Old 12-22-2010, 04:01 PM
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Hello all,

I am looks for tips, tricks, and any and all knowledge I can get for that. I am trying to go to Firearms instructor school here in Okla. that summer. My dept. still requires you to shoot the Match 5 course of fire with a 4 inch revolver. I love shooting revolvers and have no trouble with my scores from 25 yards in, but when I get back to the 50 yard line it goes south bery quickly. I just cant seemed to get my sitting position locked in an throw most of them into the 7 ring. I just started shooting PPC matches recently, but need any advice you can offer from the 50. I am shooting wadcutters and know i have to aim at the top of the 8 bottom of the 7 ring to lob the wadcutters in at the 50 when i'm prone, but I can't even get the sitting to group to find where i need to aim at.
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:45 PM
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what revolver you going to shoot?

heavy trigger pull?

what sights?

I recall my instructor class at TXDPS in 2001, we had to shoot match 5 with both semi and revo.

I lacked 50 yd skills back then and I held high to lob them in.

Since you are not able to aim small (like the neck) with a duty revolver, your best bet is to hold where you know it will drop to the X/10 ring.

Windage will be important and if you can line up your sights parallel with the neck, hold steady and squeeze....and let follow through.

the reason I am asking about your piece, if its a hard pull and fixed sights....you will have a difficult time. if the sun is in your face, it may cause your shots to drift.

sitting.....MKT taught me sitting. I am sure he will chime in soon.

YouTube - PPC 1500 på Ryttarns Mosse (18/4)

I sit like them in this video however my left arm is around my leg but further down. my gun hand is up against the side of my leg just below the knee and my support hand is holding my up at the wrist/arm and my support hand is around the gun hand.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcUDS...eature=related

Ooops...I forgot to add eyesight. Clear front sight. if over 40 and not corrected....it might affect your 50 yds abilities.

Last edited by SW CQB 45; 12-22-2010 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:49 AM
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8-shot, back in my PPC days I found that Elliason sights on Colt Pythons had enough range of adjustment to allow a neck hold at 50 yards. S&W at one time had a sight set for the 686 that allowed this too, but I don't know if those are still available.

Alternatively, I found about six clicks up on the Elliasons allowed for bullet drop (158 grain service loads) at 50 yards on my guns, with a center hold on the X-ring. YMMV.

The targets they use will also be a consideration. The muted black silhouettes printed on buff cardboard, which were in use at at least some Regionals and the one time I shot the Nationals, did not allow my eyes to make out the scoring lines at 50 yards. However, the printed paper B27 targets used at most other matches had the numerals printed in white, and at 50 yards created a thin "white cross" that centered on the X-ring, making center hold aim much easier.

Finally, if you're fighting a heavy DA trigger pull, NRA rules always allowed single action from the 50 yards line. Don't know if that rule will be in effect at your event or not, though.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out!
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:29 AM
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Like CQB asked, 'What revolver will you shoot?"

You need to be shooting a revolver with a blued front sight, preferably a patridge front sight, and blackened to boot. I always did my best with a 4" 586 with a .250 patridge front sight. Of course, the ideal situation would be to shoot it with a 6" and a .300 patridge but you are limited to a 4". If they allow it, find out what sight dope you need to shoot a "neck hold" from fifty yards and memorize it or write it down. If it is allowed, I'd go ahead and make my adjustment at the fifty.

You'll need a good comfortable grip that fits you and that is totally your preference.

It is also very important to be in good shape. A big gut will cause you problems at the fifty. It is hard to maintain a good sitting position if you're overweight because it is applying pressure to your diaphragm and interferring with good breathing technique. It will also interfere with the prone position for the same reason. I always found the things I did away from the range helped as much or more than practice time on the range. These things are running, cycling, weight lifting and, I know it sounds funny, but meditation. You want a nice slow heart rate. This also means no caffeine, tobacco or alcohol.

Lastly, remember the same fundamentals that you must use to shoot X's at the twenty-five are the same at fifty but more important. Concentrate on the front sight! Trust the front sight!

I hope this helps. I'm sure someone will offer better wisdom than this but it worked for me.

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Old 12-23-2010, 02:14 PM
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You're getting some good advice here so pay heed to what you're being told. CQB and Palmetto Sharpshooter have laid the ground work for you.

The 50 is all about focus on the front sight and trigger control, you have to completely ignore the movement of the front sight on your aim point and trust that the sight are there. That movement is the "arc of motion", which due to the optical illusion, appears your front sight is literally swinging off the target. In reality you muzzle is moving no more than it does at 25 yards and the effect on the bullet should normally be about the width of the 10 ring (X ring when you're on your game). Remember to keep applying pressure through your trigger squeeze and do not make the gun go off when you think it needs to, let the hammer break on its own.

The sitting position should just about be your most stable, I use it for all my sight in work. Some prefer using the prone for that but I find that shooting at the upward angle from prone gives me a slightly high impact, so I set my sights in sitting and have a secondary aim point for prone. This was greatly exagerated when I went to prescription lenses. If your wear specticles for shooting make sure they have the large optics (you get a larger sweet spot) and keep the front sight centered in your lense. I know, just another thing to have to remember .

As Palmetto Shooter said, a big belly interfers with the position. You have to be able to breathe in every position and gut size in the sitting affects the diaphragm, which affects your breathing.

For the position, you can shoot with either knee up. I prefer the right knee, which is backwards for most right handers. You are using your knee/leg as a support much like a baracade in this position. Your other leg is straight out for counter balance. You will also place the foot of you "up" leg under the knee/calf of your straight leg to lock you position. It will also help to wear your work boots as the add more counter balance, tennie runners just don't cut it.

Now that your on the ground, your gun hand gets positioned alongside the "up" knee and your support hand comes around the front of the "up" leg and pulls everything in tight. Now, here is where the counter balance comes into play - you relax your gut and let your upper body lay back toward the ground. Your arms will hold the weight of your upper body, further locking the gun into a fixed position alongside your leg. With your arms supporting your upper body instead of your abs you can now beathe fairly normal in the sitting position. Downside to this position, if you have short and/or spindely legs and no boots for counter balance you will roll right over onto your back. Practice at home with an unloaded gun .

As far as shooting this with a 4", I use a 586 with a patridge sight slightly taller than Palmetto Shooter's. I can get a neck hold at the 50 by turning my elevation screw down 3/4 of a turn from my center hold adjustment and I can shoot as good a score as I do with my 6" 586. As Palmetto said, you'll want a blued sight, preferable a patridge (but a ramp will work) and be sure to use sight black to make the sights stand out.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:29 PM
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I just watched the video clip that CQB posted, a lot to learn there.

The guy with the revolver on the left side of the screen seems to know his game, only saw a couple potential errors. Notice how he seemed to be the slowest shooter, well he was using his time, last one to finish the sitting, took his time in the prone and left hand, then stepped up the pace right handed. That could almost have been me, my timing is pretty close to that. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

The biggest thing that jumped out at me, with that revolver shooter, was that he didn't seem to follow through on his last shots, at least in the prone and left hand. Notice how quickly his head pops up after the last shot. You have to stay on those sights until the recoil stops, in fact set up for a seventh shot to ensure follow through.

Also notice that this shooter is taking a breath for every shot, really pronounced in his sitting position. Breathing is important, especially at the 50. As the O2 in your blood drops the first thing to go is your eye sight & focusing ability.

Now, I'm not sure I'd want to be running a video camera from in front of the firing line.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:58 PM
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I will be shooting a 4 inch S&W 686SSR. The reason I picked it was the trigger stop in a factory revolver. I replaced the front sight with a patridge front sight and the rear sight is a bowen rough country sight. I am thinking of trying to sight in the revolver for a neck hold at 50 then adjust my aim at the 25 and 7. We will be using the paper targets that you staple on a carboard back. I am allowed to use comp 3 speedloaders and a competition holster. The revolver is pretty much stock except I dropped in bang inc set of springs from Jerry Miculek.
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:00 PM
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Also the ammo will be what the department provides which will be Black Hills Reloads (blue Box) 148gr. hollow base wadcutters.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:02 PM
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The SSR should be an excellent choice for this.

I would be worried about the spring kit. Will it detonate the primers in the reloads you'll be shooting? Also, will you be able to sight it in before you shoot?

I think sighting it in at the 50 yd line and then compensating for the 25 and 7 is a good idea if they won't let you adjust during the course of fire.

If you haven't already started on PT, I'd throw in some sit-ups too.

There's some really excellent pointers here. MKT's advice on the sight movement couldn't be more correct. One error folks get into is "chasing" the front sight. Like he said, the movement is natural and nothing to be concerned about provided you keep the sights aligned. Obviously, from MKT's avatar and his advice, he knows what he's talking about. Of course, it should go without saying Mr. Ayoob has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know.

Let me know if I can help. I haven't shot PPC seriously in nine years but I can still talk about it.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:39 PM
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Yea I've shot my 686ssr quite a bit and have not had any trouble with the spring kit. They don't mind if you adjust your sights during the course if fire. You have to shot a 90% (540) out of 600 to get into the school. I've been practicing and have until April to get in shape. I PT almost daily and am in pretty good shape. Once again I do thank you for all the tips videos and comments. I've been shooting about 2-3 local PPC matches a year and have an old Royce Weddle PPC revolver that I shoot. I have shot the 686ssr in some of the service revolver matches, but they wouldn't let me at nationals due to the trigger stop.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:53 PM
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Yea I've shot my 686ssr quite a bit and have not had any trouble with the spring kit. They don't mind if you adjust your sights during the course if fire. You have to shot a 90% (540) out of 600 to get into the school. I've been practicing and have until April to get in shape. I PT almost daily and am in pretty good shape. Once again I do thank you for all the tips videos and comments. I've been shooting about 2-3 local PPC matches a year and have an old Royce Weddle PPC revolver that I shoot. I have shot the 686ssr in some of the service revolver matches, but they wouldn't let me at nationals due to the trigger stop.
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:58 PM
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I have shot the 686ssr in some of the service revolver matches, but they wouldn't let me at nationals due to the trigger stop.
That makes about as much sense as the sitting position.



You should easily make 540. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:18 AM
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Palmetto,

The zebras at the NPSC last year were being unusually strict. There were a number of folks who had been using the SSRs for the stock revolver matches since the gun debuted, to include prior NPSC matches, but at the 2010 Nationals the guns were DQ'd due to the factory stop. The chief ref was telling those who were DQ'd that they should take it up with S&W and that just because it is named a Stock Service Revolver doesn't make it legal. I've never checked one out but I've been told the stop is part of the trigger and not removable.

Makes no sense to me either.
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:13 AM
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Yea the year before I tried to shoot my Glock 34 and was told the stock extended mag and slide release were after market and couldn't shoot it either. Oh well.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKT View Post
Palmetto,

The zebras at the NPSC last year were being unusually strict. There were a number of folks who had been using the SSRs for the stock revolver matches since the gun debuted, to include prior NPSC matches, but at the 2010 Nationals the guns were DQ'd due to the factory stop. The chief ref was telling those who were DQ'd that they should take it up with S&W and that just because it is named a Stock Service Revolver doesn't make it legal. I've never checked one out but I've been told the stop is part of the trigger and not removable.

Makes no sense to me either.
I used to shoot my DPA5906 in the Stock Auto match. They didn't see a problem with it and I don't either. The DPA is much more a specialized pistol than the SSR is in the revolver world. The trigger stop is a part of the trigger on the SSR.

I should probably start a new thread at this point. I wish I could find the letters I wrote the NRA Law Enforcement Activities Division concerning the matches and the rules. PPC needed to evolve years ago. The equipment and courses aren't relevant to how officers are equipped and trained today. Plus, the equipment needed to be competitive is cost prohibitive to most officers. I hate to see it die but if it won't change with the times, it needs to.

I'll get off my soapbox now. It's just that I shot PPC for over ten years and was fairly successful but I hated to see how the "professional" shooters ruined it.
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:47 PM
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The NRA Law Enforcement Competition committee has been making small changes in the last year or so. After a fair number of New Mexico LEOs showed up to shoot the Stock Auto match using their duty guns the zebras DQ'd many of the guns because of adjustable sights, extended mags (think small Glocks or similar), extended mag releases and any number of factory, as issued items there was quite an uproar from those shooters. Starting with the 2010 season the rules were changed to permit adjustable sights in the Stock Auto match.

The committe also amended the rules for Distinguished Auto, now 6" autos are permitted provided they don't have a full rib. The thought process there, according to what I was told, was because 6" revolvers were permitted.

A result of these few changes was that for the 2010 NPSC New Mexico had the highest number of shooters at 58 IIRC, while California and Texas (who traditionally had the largest representation) fielded 48 and 43 respectively. Until the last couple of years the only Nem Mexico shooters were Border Patrol Agents. I believe there were close to 100 new shooters at the 2010 NPSC.

In reference your closing line, I also noticed that most of the notable teams are made up of academy staff. Very few of the "better" teams are made up of street or field troops. The reigning winning team is one of those teams not made up of academy personnel, the 2010 team only had one member from the academy everyone else was assigned to the field (the team consists of 10 to field 2 four-man teams and a two-man team).
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Old 12-25-2010, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKT View Post
The NRA Law Enforcement Competition committee has been making small changes in the last year or so. After a fair number of New Mexico LEOs showed up to shoot the Stock Auto match using their duty guns the zebras DQ'd many of the guns because of adjustable sights, extended mags (think small Glocks or similar), extended mag releases and any number of factory, as issued items there was quite an uproar from those shooters. Starting with the 2010 season the rules were changed to permit adjustable sights in the Stock Auto match.

The committe also amended the rules for Distinguished Auto, now 6" autos are permitted provided they don't have a full rib. The thought process there, according to what I was told, was because 6" revolvers were permitted.

A result of these few changes was that for the 2010 NPSC New Mexico had the highest number of shooters at 58 IIRC, while California and Texas (who traditionally had the largest representation) fielded 48 and 43 respectively. Until the last couple of years the only Nem Mexico shooters were Border Patrol Agents. I believe there were close to 100 new shooters at the 2010 NPSC.

In reference your closing line, I also noticed that most of the notable teams are made up of academy staff. Very few of the "better" teams are made up of street or field troops. The reigning winning team is one of those teams not made up of academy personnel, the 2010 team only had one member from the academy everyone else was assigned to the field (the team consists of 10 to field 2 four-man teams and a two-man team).
If you've been shooting a while, I'm certain you will recall the federal teams. Shooting was their job. Nowadays it's the academy guys like you said. PPC's equipment and courses are almost completely irrelevant to the equipment and training LEOs are doing today.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:43 AM
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PPC SHOOTERS SEEM TO BE LET OUT OF THE LOOP WITH THE RULES. THEY ASKED US TO VOTE ON ALLOWING THE MILITARY TO SHOOT. WE VOTED OVERWHELMINGLY NO AND THEY ALLOWED THEM ANYWAY. SO THAN WHY ASK? IT WAS PURPOSED THAT YOU ONLY HAVE TO SHOOT REVOLVER OR AUTO FOR THE NATIONALS. YOU JUST CLAIM WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SHOOT AND SHOOT IN YOUR CLASS WITH THAT GUN. THAT WOULD MEAN ONLY ONE SET OF COMPETITION GUNS NOT TWO. FOR THE NEW SHOOTERS THAT IS A GREAT COST SAVINGS. SHOT THAT DOWN ALSO. JP

P.S. SORRY ABOUT GETTING OFF TOPIC.
SO BACK ON TOPIC, MATCH 5 TRY OLDER READING GLASSES. WHY OLDER PROPER READING GLASSES? PROPER READING GLASSES WOULD WEAR FOR READING PLACE THE FOCUS ON THE REAR SIGHT. IF THE READING GLASSES ARE A YEAR OR TWO OLD THE FOCUS SEEMS TO BE MORE ON THE FRONT SIGHT. JP

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Old 01-06-2011, 10:51 PM
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I would go with a neck hold myself.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-Shot View Post
Hello all,

I am looks for tips, tricks, and any and all knowledge I can get for that. I am trying to go to Firearms instructor school here in Okla. that summer. My dept. still requires you to shoot the Match 5 course of fire with a 4 inch revolver. I love shooting revolvers and have no trouble with my scores from 25 yards in, but when I get back to the 50 yard line it goes south bery quickly. I just cant seemed to get my sitting position locked in an throw most of them into the 7 ring. I just started shooting PPC matches recently, but need any advice you can offer from the 50. I am shooting wadcutters and know i have to aim at the top of the 8 bottom of the 7 ring to lob the wadcutters in at the 50 when i'm prone, but I can't even get the sitting to group to find where i need to aim at.
The current American Rifleman (Feb 2011), page 57 has a excellant image of a BP shooter in the sitting position. if you dont get the AR....I can try and scan the image and post.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:06 AM
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I don't take American Rifleman. I get one of the other magazines. Ill do some checking and see if I can locate a copy of it somewhere. Thanks for the heads up though.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:27 AM
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I think my printer scans. I will try today


Last edited by SW CQB 45; 01-22-2011 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:03 PM
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I've been shooting the sitting position with my left leg up. I see he has his right leg up and is also a right handed shooter. I may have to try this style and see how it feels
Thanks for scanning the photo for me.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:44 PM
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Enoch shoots the sitting position the same way I do...both off the right knee. Most right-handers work off the left knee it seems but either knee works and you have to try both to see which one is better for you.

The picture pretty well shows what I tried to describe early on - hmmm...a picture or a thousand words . You can see that his arms are bearing the load of his upper body allowing his gut (or lack thereof in Enoch's case) to be relaxed, which permits natural breathing. His left leg lays across his right foot anchoring that foot to the ground and providing counter balance.

On Page 56, I thought I had made print. I had to look at the picture closely, then realized I was a couple more lanes to the right - off picture. The picture on page 56 was during the Off-duty match (Off-duty, Service Revolver and Stock-auto require the kneeling barracade position).
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:49 PM
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MKT...I see that most of the shooters on the image are butts sitting down on their feet for kneeling.

After knee surgeries on both L and R knee. Am I at a disadvantage by loosing the stability of basically sitting down in the kneeling position?

Is there a preferred stable kneeling other than the sitting position?

Thanks in advance
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:57 PM
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CQB,

If your surgeries prevent you from sitting back on your heels there are other options.

If you can kneel on both knees, try shooting in the up right position - just like standing without support only on your knees. Your other option is the one knee down and bracing your support side elbow against the up knee. If the knees are really bad, even with surgery, you can shoot a "handicap" position but you'll need a doctor's note and chief referee's approval. Generally, the handicap position will be the next most difficult position, which in this case would be standing no support.

Now if you're losing stability trying to sit back on your heels with your knees together try spreading them apart. I spread my knees, about the width of my shoulders and sit back on my heels, basically making a tripod.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:08 AM
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MKT....thanks for the info.

My surgeries prevent butt to the feet kneeling position and I always drop to either to a single or dbl knee.

I have tried the elbow supported and I always move away from that position because the gun is tooo close to my face losing the aim small miss small...so I always feel unsteady on kneeling.
..
I will try wide knees to see if it improves the stability.

Getting back to sitting.....according to the pic....Enoch is using his wrist as the hook around his knee to hold himself up. This is where I might be messing up as my support hand opens up and I don't get a full support grip on the gun. I need to muscle up onto the wrist and get a better support grip.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:24 AM
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Yep, the inner side of the support wrist wraps around the front of the knee. Your support hand might need to wrap a little deeper, meaning your fingers come further around your gun hand than you would normally have. This keeps most of your support hand in contact with your gun hand. The wrist/knee interlock is only the anchor point, your arms and shoulders are carrying the weight not your abs.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:56 PM
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Just wanted to give you all an update. I am going Weds. for tryouts. My setting position has improved greatly thanks to your information. I think i'm going to make the 540. I wish my left hand was better at the 25 and 50, but I will let you all know how it goes. Keep the tips and tricks coming!
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:25 PM
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my left hand shots are actually better than my right hand shots. proally concentrate more or not any bad habits.

I actually shoot left hand prone and of course left hand barricade.

let us know how you do!!!!
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:45 AM
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Well just when everything was getting situated I was at the range today and they are about out of 38 wadcutter ammo so I practiced with some precision delta ammo I have and I'm getting alot of misfires. I removed my spring kit, but it's still happening. I never had any problems with the Black Hills stuff. Anyone else have problems with percision delta. The ammo is there new stuff not reloads.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:47 AM
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never had any problems with Precision Delta,their stuff is always top notch
and I've shot it with some very light striking PPC setups
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-Shot View Post
Well just when everything was getting situated I was at the range today and they are about out of 38 wadcutter ammo so I practiced with some precision delta ammo I have and I'm getting alot of misfires. I removed my spring kit, but it's still happening. I never had any problems with the Black Hills stuff. Anyone else have problems with percision delta. The ammo is there new stuff not reloads.
A buddy shoots P/D and was having misfires with blue box P/D which he referred to as reloads. on matches, he uses nothing but Orange Box P/D.

he thinks the blue box primers were not set deep enough and supposidely the issues were corrected.

hope this helps.
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:32 PM
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Thanks for all the help everyone. Had tryouts today in the Oklahoma wind and rain. I shot a 531, then 549, and finally a 563. I got my 540 or better. Thanks for all the tips and tricks you offered.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-Shot View Post
Thanks for all the help everyone. Had tryouts today in the Oklahoma wind and rain. I shot a 531, then 549, and finally a 563. I got my 540 or better. Thanks for all the tips and tricks you offered.
Great news! Thanks for the update and congratulations!
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