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Old 04-07-2011, 10:54 AM
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Default What about a Para 16-40?

Not sure if this is the correct forum but here goes. I have a M&P 9 and 40 cal I have been shooting for a couple of years. Thousands of round in each. Apex stuff installed. However I am not crazy about the accuracy. I don't want to go into all the "did you try this or that" That is not the point of this thread. I want a 1911 in a 40 cal. I am looking at the Para 16-40 because its 40 cal and its not a single stack. However what bothers me is a lot of people who have them seem to have to have the exact load for the gun to make it reliable. That bothers me. Also there is some issue with extractor? I would buy a S&W 1911 if they made one but they don't. So my options are limited. Why not a 45? Well I am all setup reloading wise for the other calibers. I don't shoot ipsic but I am involved in a practical defense league where accuracy and time are rewarded. Anyhow I would like to hear from some owners of the Para and any other suggestions. An STI is out of my reach, unless you have one and feel sorry for me and are willing to sell it to me dirt cheap. Will look for your response. Thanks.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:37 PM
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Well, when you move into the 2011 widebody Limited guns you pretty much give up using whatever ammunition that is cheapest that week, anyway. The STIs are typically loaded long to match their throats, which changes the powder required to make power. The Paraords are not so deep throated, but the ammunition still needs to match the gun.

I haven't seen many mechanical problems with the Paraord two-piece extractor (it is a pain to clean) but if you do have breakage, standard parts don't fit and you may have to wait on parts. Any gun can break when shot enough. The 16-40 users often upgrade some of the action parts for competition. If you expect a 2011 type gun to be as simple and trouble-free as an M&P, well.......they aren't.

The M&P typically gives stock reliability and simplicity not matched by the specialty 1911/2011 competition guns. It is very forgiving on ammo.

As a CRO who sees a lot of USPSA shooters, I am frankly suspicious that you expect buying a 2011 will help your accuracy, as the M&P is typically plenty accurate. The 2011 with custom single-stage trigger and higher capacity can improve speed, but not usually accuracy all that much--as far as the gun is concerned.

Suggest you find a way to borrow or rent gun(s) and see how you do.
I'm classifed in all 6 USPSA divisons, but when you look at my scores, I'm clearly a better Production shooter (with my M&P Pro) than I do in the other divisons (with the appropriate guns).
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
Well, when you move into the 2011 widebody Limited guns you pretty much give up using whatever ammunition that is cheapest that week, anyway. The STIs are typically loaded long to match their throats, which changes the powder required to make power. The Paraords are not so deep throated, but the ammunition still needs to match the gun.

I haven't seen many mechanical problems with the Paraord two-piece extractor (it is a pain to clean) but if you do have breakage, standard parts don't fit and you may have to wait on parts. Any gun can break when shot enough. The 16-40 users often upgrade some of the action parts for competition. If you expect a 2011 type gun to be as simple and trouble-free as an M&P, well.......they aren't.

The M&P typically gives stock reliability and simplicity not matched by the specialty 1911/2011 competition guns. It is very forgiving on ammo.

As a CRO who sees a lot of USPSA shooters, I am frankly suspicious that you expect buying a 2011 will help your accuracy, as the M&P is typically plenty accurate. The 2011 with custom single-stage trigger and higher capacity can improve speed, but not usually accuracy all that much--as far as the gun is concerned.

Suggest you find a way to borrow or rent gun(s) and see how you do.
I'm classifed in all 6 USPSA divisons, but when you look at my scores, I'm clearly a better Production shooter (with my M&P Pro) than I do in the other divisons (with the appropriate guns).
OKFC05; what does the Pro give you over the standard m&p?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:55 PM
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I have this P16-40 .
I used to use it for IDPA, I have not used it for a while but it has always been reliable. I skate board taped the stuff out of it after a particularly rainy match at West Point. It isn’t pretty but it is sticky!





I’m supposed to be trading it for a bunch of cement because I would rather shoot the M&Ps.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:58 PM
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Para's quality is pretty much hit and miss, and their warranty/customer service is horrible.

Over the years, I made the mistake of owning 3 Para, double stacks, and stuck as much money in to them to get them to run decent as what the guns cost.

Smith & Wesson does sell a 1911, but, I've never shot one, so I can't give you a comparison to others.

To answer your last question. The Pro series has a little better trigger, and if you get a Pro, in a 5", it will get you a little longer sight radius. Either should be capable of shooting 2" groups at 25 yards, with ammo they like, but, I have heard of a few that won't shoot that well.
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabrace View Post
OKFC05; what does the Pro give you over the standard m&p?
The 5' M&P Pro 9 comes set up for USPSA Production and IDPA/SSP, with FO sights, factory trigger job, steel captive recoil spring guide rod.


Pro Series

• 4-5-1/2 lb. Smooth Trigger Pull
• Novak® Fiber Optic Green Front Sight
• Novak® Designed Reduced Glare Rear Sight
• Increased Sight Radius


Product: Model M&P9

The 5" M&P Pro 40 is the same gun in .40 S&W.
Product: Model M&P40

The 4.25" Pros come with night sights.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:41 AM
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Well, I have all but ruled out a Para. I just can't see paying $1100 for a gun that may work. I hear the S&W 1911 is good, don't understand why they don't make a 40 cal. After all it is a S&W 40 right? Would a s&w 1911 single stack be in a production class in things like ipsc? I have looked at the m&p pro, which is much cheaper than the others but I don't think it has the same trigger reset speed as like a 1911. My own estimation based on what I have researched. I know I am all over the place but that is why I am here expressing thoughts on the subject. Thanks.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Would a s&w 1911 single stack be in a production class in things like ipsc?
Nope. USPSA/Single Stack. There are no single-action guns in USPSA/Production. They made the single-stack division because the double-stack 2011s had pushed them out of Limited.
Production, Single-stack, and revolver somewhat restrict the guns and gear to more "normal".
Open, Limited, and Limited 10 are all-out equipment races.

As far as IDPA, .40 S&W is the red-haired stepchild unless you download to minor power. For whatever reason, IDPA/CDP is .45 only, so .40 goes to ESP against the 9mm.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:08 PM
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But, if you do reload, you can make a 130pf, .40 caliber load that is a LOT softer than 9mm!

As far as I know, STI is the only one that still makes a .40 caliber, single stack. The "cheaper" one is the Trojan, and they are selling for about 1K. I own 2 of them.
I think they make the Sentry, and the USPSA, single stack in .40.

S&W does make a 5", .40 in their "Pro" series, but, as of right now, they aren't legal in USPSA for any division, except open. Once they sell enough of them, I'm sure they will be o.k.ed for limited, limited 10, and production. I THINK they are already O.K. for SSP and ESP, in IDPA>
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:43 PM
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The thing is the 1911/2011 platform is really designed for the the longer 38super/45acp. They don't offen work well with the shorter 9/40 cartridge. Most of the guys using 40 load them long in 1.175-1.200" range. We have a lot of people using the 16-40 but I doubt any of them are stock out-of-the-box guns, they always need something it's seems. I've shot my both M&P 40 & 9 Pro in Limited without feeling that handicaped, I don't shoot to make my living, I shoot to have fun and yes I have a 6" SVI 40 with over $2K invested but it doesn't make me shoot that much better.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:42 AM
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I can vouch from personnal experience that running 40 S&W in a 1911 frame is an iffy proposition. I have an older Dan Wesson Pointman in 40 S&W and a PO16-40 Limited which have been reliable. In contrast my STI Trojan in 40 S&W has been problematic in terms of reliability. In 9mm 1911's I shoot a Dan Wesson PM-9, and PO18-9 which function relioably. I had a SA 9mm Target which was reliable but would not group better than 4 to 5 inches at 50 ft.
My S&W M&P9 Pro 5 inch provides nice 2+inch groups at 50 ft. while my full size M&P45 provides nice tight 2 inch or less 10 shot groups at 50 ft. My son shoots a M&P40 and has not expereinced any reliability issues. In terms of reliability and price it would be difficult to beat the S&W M&P line.
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1911, 45acp, cartridge, dan wesson, extractor, idpa, ipsc

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