is the jokes.

Today we had a stage that was two paper at two each, then a metal popper which activated a bobber you got to see for maybe 2 seconds.

Shot as intended that means I'd put number 5 on the steel and only have one left for that bobber.

So I decided to shoot those first two 3 and 3 and as I'm reloading the safety officer (who shoots revolver fairly often too) says "you know, only two each were required there". Hardy-har-har.

Then later on we were discussing shooting a target at arm's length from retention (elbow locked in your side) and the SO was describing how he cants his gun outward. He said "that's so your slide doesn't get caught in your concealment garment and cause a jam". I piped up "my what?!"

One of the funniest today though was getting told "you're making up zeroes". For non-IDPA shooters that's taking a makeup shot to try and improve my score on a target that can't be improved any more. But I literally can't see my holes. Guess I really need to shoot a bigger caliber so I can.

Two comments as an IDPA match director and long-time revolver shooter.
1. The stage you described is not designed correctly per IDPA rules. See ppg 12-13, Appendix Five, and the Glossary.

2. I have run into a few SOs and ROs who felt the need to do an unsolicited, unprofessional commentary on my equipment and/or tactics. I have asked a very few if it would not be too inconvenient, would they please **** on the personal comments and do their job. One SO in a TX match was relieved for the day when he insisted I should be charged with both a "Failure to Neutralize" and a "Faiure to Engage" (which is an IPSC penalty) on one IDPA target.

Most SOs and ROs work very hard for little reward, and the sport would die without them. Some people just need a bit more training and attitude help.

__________________
Science plus Art

I'll dig out my book later and check that rule. I'll pass the info along to our match director. This is club level stuff so they are a bit more relaxed on the COF rules.

I consider the SO who made the comment a friend and he also shoots SSR often so I was cool with it.

IMHO, using club rules and calling it IDPA is a bad thing to do to the shooters. Many times I have seen shooters from certain clubs run afoul of the rules in their first major sanctioned match, simply because they had never been in a match run by actual IDPA rules. We had five shooters from one club in a State Match that had no idea how to do a legal IDPA reload, since they had been essentially using USPSA reloading rules in their so-called IDPA matches.

It really isn't that hard to follow the IDPA rules so the shooters know what to expect if they try the "big time." Your stage could have been fixed by putting one paper target on the other side of the activator.

__________________
Science plus Art

I could not agree more...Call it "Jimmy's shoot em up game" or whatever else you want but don't call it IDPA.
In the past I would feel sorry for shooters when they earned a procedural or I had to explain they had illegal equipment at a sanctioned match and had earned themselves a DQ.
I can't tell you haw many times I've heard "well at our club________".
I have since stopped feeling bad about this as it states clearly in the rule book how matches are to be run, what all the rules are, and that it is every IDPA members responsibility to know and follow the rules.
Club level matches are great things but when the rules are bent at the club level it does a dis-service to everyone at that club.

we always had a safety meeting before the match and the rules, not all of them, were gone over, and any questions would be answered before the match, especialy for new members. I've only seen a few DQs, and they were brain farts.

Out of curiosity, at a more rule stringent range could that be considered an FTDR (Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time)? Particularly if you state that you are going to fire extra non needed shots to reload before the steel rather than making up "down" shots. Maybe that's why the SO made the comment about only 2 being required there.

No IDPA club in my area but there is USPSA, and they sure get puzzled with a revolver shooter, especially when it comes to reloads and clearing the gun. I have had several RO's think I am breaking the 180 plane when I am no where even close and demonstrated to the Match Director. He then told the RO's that there is NO PROBLEM.

As I am usually the only revolver shooter there, they don't seem to know how to handle it.
Anyway, have fun and be safe!

Randy
PS...I used to shoot in a club that sort of used IDPA rules....big learning curve when I went to a REAL IDPA match and had to re-learn several things in a hurry. So I agree with the others that you ar doing yourself no favors by not adhering to the rules of either IDPA or USPSA at a local level. When you follow the regular rules, yo can then go to a match anywhere and not have to make any adjustments or in a worst case situation, not be allow to compete, which I have seen with not legal equipment/holsters etc.

Yeah, sometimes it is difficult to shoot a revolver in IDPA, especially an SSR revolver using speedloaders. Sometimes things as mentioned above come up in a match and you have to just throw an extra round or two at a target so you won't get caught in a trap reloading while the moving target disappears. I've never had an RO complain about shooting a target 3 times.

But ain't it fun to beat a bunch of Glock, Sig, 1911, and M&P auto shooters with your "old fashioned" wheel gun!

I'm usually the only revolver shooter at local IDPA matches, and they really don't know what to do with me. And then there are the crazy stages like: "Start with 3 rounds in the gun and shoot to slidelock, then blah blah blah..." They don't get how this isn't possible with a revolver.

But it sure is fun to beat some of them.

__________________
Romans 5:8

IPDA IS A GAME
MOST PEOPLE CAN NOT WRITE A GOOD COARSE OF FIRE RECOMEND 6 SHOOT NETURAL
IF THE STAGE IS LIMITED YOU BROKE THE RULE
REV. SHOOTER HAVE TO DO A LITTLE PLANING & COUNTING.
MOON CLIPS ARE GREAT BUT THE POWER FACTOR ON 38 SUPER IS A LITTLE SNAPPY.
IT IS A LOT OF FUN AND MORE SO WENT THE PLACE SHEET GOES UP.

Chuck, no need to shout with the all caps. The stage described in the OP is not good. One more paper target that required at least two rounds could have helped. At my local club poppers are usually behind paper targets that require 2 scored shots each. We don't have issues with "invalid" stages but we do get a good SSR turn out relatively speaking.

I have just been to a orientation to IDPA, when I read the first post, I had the same thought. Seems like a 'failure to do right' as I was told.

I ran into a stage exactly like that at a State match. I shot the 2 paper 2 each, hit the popper, shot one shot at the disappearing target then did my reload and went on to the rest of the stage after the bobber wasn't there when I finished the reload. I lost 2.5 seconds with the one miss on the disappearing target. I figured skipping the extra reload left me ahead on the stage.

I never fire extra rounds when shooting revolver. Takes too much time for the extra reloads.

Bill N.

If the "bobber" required a minimum of two rounds then the design of the stage is ****. Every shooter should at least get the opportunity to put 2 on it before it goes away. If it didn't completely disappear then maybe that's another story but as described that stage is junk in my opinion.

Why are some of the revolver shooters so scared to reload?
Why not just do a RWR and finish the stage the way you are supposed to instead of breaking the rules?

How did he break the rules? Except for the shooting behind cover rule. Which puts the RO into a referee or judge position, instead of watching the shooters muzzle. What "rules" about how many rounds one shoots to neutralize the target to the shooters in the "I Don't Practice Anymore" rule book are you referring to?
What the heck is a RWR?

I was in the room the night that the first IPSC/Canada rulebook was written down on paper (to later be printed) around August 05 or 06 1980 in a basement in Calgary, Canada. A lot of stuff was covered that night because up until that time there were only the 47 rules in "Cooper on Handguns" to go with. One of the things covered was revolver reloading. There were a lot more revolvers used in IPSC in the early days than there are now, and they still competed equally against semi-autos and it was taken as a given that good course design would make everything more or less competitive. I realize that the incident in question happened in an IDPA match and not an IPSC match, but practical shooting is practical shooting (just as common sense is common sense).

I do NOT have a copy of that first rulebook here with me (although back in Canada in my sister's garage I have a copy signed by myself, Todd Birch, Murray Gardner and Ken Kulach, three of us being Provincial Coordinators with Gardner being the Grand Poobah at the time). However, I think I recall correctly that the ONLY exception allowed to breaking the 180 degree rule was while reloading a revolver whose cylinder was open. Obviously, gravity works best in one's favor during a revolver reload if the gun is pointed pretty much straight skywards during the ejection stroke and straight downwards during the "let them puppies fall in without stickin' up a bit" stroke.

Over the years, I have ended up in several "range debates" about what breaking the 180 means, but how on God's Green Earth a revolver with it's cylinder opened during a well-executed reload stroke becomes a sudden danger to Public Safety is beyond me. I was actually THERE when the rule was first written in Canadian IPSC and I KNOW what the spirit of the rule was meant to be. I have been told a few times (almost always by little Demi-God R.O.'s) that there is no "leeway for opinion" in the rules. Perhaps so. But one can only hope that common sense might prevail sometimes, you know?

A few years back, Murray Gardner, his wife and I spent a fun week in Puerto Vallharta talking about IPSC and drinking little pink drinks with small beach umbrellas or paper-mache palm trees in them, and I asked Gardner what the current IPSC rules were. He stated that one CANNOT break 180. No exceptions. I pointed out that, to the best of my memory, there WAS an exception in the original rulebook.

"Maybe," he said, "but I don't remember it. Maybe it's an exception that YOU YOURSELF instigated in Manitoba and have just carried on with."

I must concede that point as possible as I do not have a Rulebook #1 here to check. However, one thing we did agree on: almost all IPSC revolver competition these days is with moonclipped guns. It is NOT so critical unloading and loading moonclips that the gun be straight up/straight down as it is with speedloaders (especially non-spring-activated loaders). But it still helps.

Here in Mexico as we work towards getting a decent NRA Action Pistol program up and running, when hosting training clinics to the interested (most of whom armed with some form of .38 Special revolver that is NOT going to be moonclipped) I tell them what the rule IS now, and that IN MY OWN HUMBLE OPINION that it would be permissible for any R.O. to allow an exception to the 180 while a revolver is being reloaded provided it points either straight up or straight down WHILE THE CYLINDER IS OPEN. Obviously, turning around and painting the audience like Huckleberry in Police Academy would be a BAD thing.

There will be people who will disagree with this, of course, which is their right. However, as I stated, I don't think that executing a proper reload stroke with a revolver whose cylinder is open is a big threat to Public Safety. And it isn't rocket science to educate the R.O.'s to allow it. AND it's something that actually works in a true "practical" sense. Failure to understand that point might indicate (for want of a good counter-argument) a failure to understand what practical shooting is all about in the first place.

This is one rule:
Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time

An RWR is reload with retention.

The rules are still the rules even if a match director does not setup a stage to be revolver friendly. Since you are only shooting against other revolver shooters, if they all follow the same rules it should be a wash.

The rule broken is round dumping.
IDPA does not have ROs but SOs...
I never said "he" it may well be a woman as I simply referred to some of the revolver shooters.
The question posed by the OP deals with IDPA shooting does it not?
Yes I guess if you're talking about the SO that does in fact put them into a "referee or judge" position but I prefer to think of it more as an umpire with safety responsibilities added on as well. Yes the SO watches the muzzle but also everything else in the bay and has the duty to judge the shooters performance insuring it coincides with the rules.
As a SO it is my responsibility to make sure your performance is recorded accurately and impartially to insure the integrity of the match.
Anything less would be a disservice to every other competitor who follows the rules and expects to shoot a match where everyone is held to the same set of rules.
Does this clear things up for you?


A RWR is a reload with retention.

The only way an FTDR should be assessed for round dumping is if the shooter shoots his mouth off about it. The SO is not there to judge the shooter's intent, but if said shooter wants to brag about breaking the rules, the penalty is earned.

__________________
Redeemed!

RWR is good to know when you run into stages like that. Its not as fast but its better than a FTDR and remember all your shooting against is other revolver shooters. If its over 10 yds a extra round for O down is worth it and some times I'll miss a shot that i should of made.

That would be round dumping, which is punishable by an FTDR.

As an SO, I have never called round dumping, though I have suspected it at times. However, that would be blatant enough that I might call it.

I recently shot a stage which put me in a similar situation. At P1 were two threat targets, two shots each, and at P2 were three targets with two shots each. That meant I left P2 with two rounds in the gun. At P3 you fired two shots at threat target, and behind that target was a popper that activated a disappearing target. So if I fired at the first target at P3, I would be empty for the disappearing target. So I simply did a reload with retention between P2 and P3 (I was behind a wall, so I had cover).

This was not a big disadvantage for revolvers because semi-auto shooters had fired 10 shots by the time they reached P3. One of the bottom-feeder shooters that I ran forgot to do a reload with retention, fired his first shot at the target at P3, went to slide locked, and watched helplessly as the disappearing target appeared and then disappeared...

"Round dumping" defined in the rule book as
Failure To Do Right (FTDR) Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of
inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.
Example 1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more
convenient time.

is completely contradictory to the definition of Vickers Count scoring:

In Vickers Count scoring, as many shots as desired may be fired, but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored.


So if you want to penalize "round dumping" you are telling me that the definition is really "as many shots as desired may be fired as long as your intention is acceptable."

Phooey.

Jim, like it or not, round dumping is against the rules. Yes, it is about intention. Yes, it is a judgment call that is very rarely made for precisely that reason. When it is called, it is usually because the competitor was dumb enough to talk about it in earshot of the SO prior to shooting the stage. I've never called an FTDR for round dumping. I've never seen it called. I know one SO who has called it.

There are lots of rules in IDPA that require judgment calls by the SO. There are a number of rules in IDPA that I disagree with (for example, if you run dry while out in the open, you have to run to cover before initiating a reload). But I do my best to make my calls in accordance with the rules, whether I agree with them or not.

The round dumping rule sorta contradicts it self with vickers scoring. I've also shot at clubs that didn't seem to like revolvers. I've had other shooters ask me how you gonna shoot this stage while having a sh*^ eating grin on there face. My answer always is "The best way I can"

I shot at a club this weekend with 89 shooters 6 bays and only 1 was revolver friendly. I tried to use it to my advantage with RWR ( 95 degs )concealment wasn't required I come in 22nd overall. When you shot a revolver bad stages are the norm.