It seems like 357 sig would be popular w/ IPSC or IDPA shooters but from what little I've seen it isn't. It's supposed to be an extremely accurate round and it's about as powerful as 38 super so why don't more people use it? It's also said to be extremely reliable.

I like it. It is an excellent round for many things.

For shooters who handload it provides complexities that a straight walled casing does not. For a shooter who does not handload, it is more expensive than 9mm, 40, and 45. These are the disadvantages that keep the round a less-than-popular option.

It is an ideal round for carry though. Accurate, powerful, reliable, and all in a high-capacity yet handy sized weapon. I have one on me now.

Because it doesn't perform any better than a good 9 MM unless you are shooting at targets in cars and like gkitch stated it is even more expensive than .45.

Actually the .357 Sig does perform better than the 9mm, .40S&W and the 45acp. That is why my local police dept uses them as standard issue. I don't own any pistols in that caliber but I may soon.

For competition it offers no benefits....

Against 9mm, the larger case means less ammo in the same magazine. Approximately 3-5 rounds difference in a 140mm magazine.

Against 40 S&W it means a hotter load to make the same power factor.

Plus since 357 SIG is a 9mm bullet, it does not make major by rule in any Division except OPEN and REVO. IPSC (not USPSA) now allows it to make major in Standard but that is due to "Not larger than .358" civilian handgun laws.

Actually not really better, here is a link to gel tests done my Doc Roberts, unlike in the past all good quality bullets perform extremely well. Again unless you are shooting through barriers a 9 MM is just as good. Speed is not everything, notice the heavier .40 outperforms the .357.

Self Defense and Duty Load Information - 1911Forum

For carry, it offers 357 Magnum ballistics in a high-cap semi auto with lower felt recoil and lower muzzle flash than the tried and true wheelguns. Not a bad resume' indeed.

I have a full size M&P in 357 Sig with a spare 40 S&W bbl. I am quite pleased with this arrangement.

I don't see any big advantage to the .357, compare it to the 9 MM 147 grain on this chart.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

Yes the .357 has a big energy advantage, 528 ft lbs to 301 but that does not buy you any more stopping power. What matters is penetration and expansion. With the ammo costs and reloading draw backs .357 is not for me. YMMV.

I recently saw some information about the Virginia State Police that have been using 357 Sig for many years, if I remember correctly every officer involved shooting using 357 Sig has resulted in a one shot stop except for one incident. I would call that pretty impressive.

The .357 Sig does not match the .357 magnum ballistics, that is an urban legend. It does not perform better from a defensive stand point than +P 9mm rounds and is more expensive to shoot. It's only advantages are it shoots flatter at distance, but minimally, it's louder and harder to find ammo for.

What you essentially have is a 9mm bullet sitting on top of a .40 body. If you feel compelled to buy a .357 Sig, buy a 10mm, then at least handloads provide some of the advantages claimed for the .357 Sig.

Everybody is different, but there is no distinct advantage to the .357 Sig.

I'd like to see your source for this.......

In any of the competitive games it offers no advantage with significantly higher expense.
Randy

I am not sure that there is a single correct statement in this post.

The goal of the 357SIG was to develop a semi automatic duty cartridge that would offer ballistics similar to the number one stopping cartridge of all time. The 125 JHP 357 Magnum when carried in 2 1/2" - 3" revolvers.

According to most published factory figures the 125 JHP 357 Magnum leaves a 4" ported barrel at 1450 FPS. As we know most factory statistics are slightly exaggerated. Winchester 125 JHPs averaged 1315 FPS when fires from three different 3 1/2" model 27s that I had access to on that day.

In contrast the Federal 125 JHP 357 SIG load was chronograpned out of a P229, P239 and USPc. The firearms produced 1350, 1341 and 1331 respectively.

To me that sounds like SIG achieved their goal for the 357SIG

Based on your thinking the 357 Magnum would fall into EXACTLY the same category as not being a better stopper than the 9MM +p.

After all a 357 Magnum is only a faster 9MM. The difference between .355 diameter and .357 diameter is meaningless for stooping power.

You have got to be kidding me. The 10MM requires a full size platform to be fired from. Also for firearm longevity it requires a steel frame whereas a 40/357/9 can all be place on alloy framed firearms. One of the goals of the 40/357SIG cartridges was to put more than 9MM power in a platform that is 9MM sized.

Simply not true. For a 9MM to begin approaching 357 SIG performance it is necessary to exceed SAAMI pressure limits for the cartridge by a significant degree. This is why +p and +p+ designations exist, as a warning to users that this is intended only for firearms of modern design that are in good mechanical condition. The 357SIG achieves it's performance without exceeding the pressures it was designed to work at.

My appologies to the OP since my previous post is off topic

---so in other words--yes as I said there are 9mm loads which come very close to Sig .357 loads and no one, no police dept etc is worried about using +p rounds in their polymer guns....except maybe you and a few exceptions.

My over arching point was whether you look at Doc Roberts data or street results the .357 Sig's results are no better than a +p 9mm round. You can do your dance and talk about fps etc, it's irrelevant, what is relevant is end results, which are no better than top 9mm loads.

The .357 Sig isnt as popular as it should have been because it didn't deliver on it's ballistics. Sig Sauer created the .357 Sig to be an equal to the .357 Magnum so the shooter would have the power of the Magnum in a pistol. It didn't happen. Don't get me wrong, the .357 sig is a great round, but the .40 is better and if you can the same size gun with more power, well which would you choose?
The 125 grain Hornady XTP in a .357 Magnum is 1,500 fps and the 124 grain XTP is 1,350 fps. It is still a good round though, better than the 9mm.

I did this one a while back. Don't get me wrong, I like the .357 Sig and will probably buy one someday, but it just didn't live up to the hype.

Noble Experiment meets Tried and True: The .357 Sig versus the .357 Magnum - Gun News at Guns.com

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Vaya con Dios

9mm vs .357 Sig results according to Doc Robers.....it clearly says NO, there is no appreciable difference between 9mm and .357 Sig.

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

Someone want to claim to be better versed on the subject than him?

Nice write up on .357 Sig's...

not mainstream because it's not easy or fast to reload. ok for police who don't reload but i will have no interest in it because of the necked case.

Because of its relatively high velocity for a handgun round, the .357 SIG has a very flat trajectory, extending the effective range. However, it does not quite reach the performance of the .357 Magnum with bullets heavier than 125 grains (8.1 g), with the same usable barrel lengths, the typical commercial loadings using 125-grain (8.1 g) bullets, fired from a four-inch (102 mm) barrel; a typical commercial .357 Magnum load propels a 125-grain (8.1 g) bullet to 1,450 ft/s (440 m/s), while a typical .357 SIG load propels the same bullet to 1,350 ft/s (410 m/s), with only a usable 2.85-inch (72 mm) barrel. Specialty loads, such as Double Tap Ammunition, are able to propel a 125-grain (8.1 g) bullet to 1,450 ft/s (440 m/s) from a four-inch (102 mm) barrel. Offsetting this general slight disadvantage in performance is the fact that semi-automatic pistols tend to carry considerably more ammunition than revolvers.
Also like the Tokarev, the .357 SIG works well when shooting through barriers. There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies. However, other documented police shootings have confirmed the round's ability to not over penetrate the body, even though ballistic gelatin shows 16 inches (410 mm) of penetration through heavy clothing (125 grain Speer Gold Dot). The Virginia State Police have had several documented officer-related shootings involving the .357 Sig, and in every case, not only were the felons stopped instantly with one shot (except one who was shot several times while attempting to murder an officer), the bullet either didn't exit the felon, or was stopped in the clothing upon exiting, proving that even at such high velocities, the round when used with adequate expanding hollowpoints will not over penetrate soft tissue. The same department has also reported that attacking dogs have been stopped dead in their tracks by a single shot, whereas the former subsonic 147 grain 9 mm duty rounds would require multiple shots to incapacitate the animals.[11]

OK, I never said the .357 Sig was a bad round, just as I never said 9mm was a bad round. So if you like the round, you should carry it, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a good round, as is the 9mm.

One thing though, the quote does not support the fact that the .357 Sig in every case except one, by the VA State police is a one stop round over the long term. You have an early report on the round. You can't draw that conclusion based on an early report based on several cases. I've seen a subsequent report that states they are having good results out of the round, but not miraculous results, which is what all but one long term would be. Make sense?

I agree with that, I am not an advocate of 357 Sig at all. I had just remembered that article when I came across this post. Just passing along some information and I have came accross this info on several different sites, although I do not know exactly how old the information is, it mentions Double Tap Ammo and it has only been around since 2002 so the info is less than 10 years old.

I liked it enough that I bought a second barrel for my SIG 239 in .357 SIG. It's my EDC now.

As a former LEO I liked it well enought to change my main carry platform
to a H-K USPc. Lightweight,13 rd cap and the best of German Eng, but to each his own. For me it's the 357 Sig in Speer Gold Dot.

I own a .40 full size and bought the .357 barrel

Well, I had the opportunity to ask several veteran North Carolina Highway Patrol officers what they thought about 357 Sig. The official sidearm cartridge for them is currently the 40 S&W which they both said was a good cartridge. At one time, however, they were issued 357 Sig and, to this day, they much prefer it since the 40 S&W sometimes bounces off of windshields whereas the 357 Sig penetrates right through.

For competition USPSA shooters, however, the 357 Sig offers no advantages as was detailed in some earlier posts.

For competition purposes, USPSA specifically, the .357 does not meet the minimum caliber diameter for major power factor. Limited, limited 10, Single Stack and Revolver divisions require a minimum caliber of .40 to score major. Any caliber under .40 cal. in these divisions scores minor which translates into lost points for any hits on targets other than an "A" hit. Production division minimum caliber is 9mm. Minimum power factor for production division is 125. The .357 sig probably hits the 165+ power factor so now shot recovery is the issue when a power factor of 125 is the minimum requirement. Competitors reload 9mm to about 130 PF, reducing recoil, allowing faster shot recovery, not to mention the expense of factory .357 sig ammo is considerably more. When you go thru 10K - 15K rounds a yr. & more cost is a huge driver. The .357 sig is also at a disadvantage in open division due to magazine capacity. The 9mm & .38 super open division shooters can load up to 30 rounds in a 170 mm magazine. The .357 would max a 170 mm magazine out at about 25 or 26. On a 28+ round course of fire the 9mm/.38 super guys don't have to perform a magazine change, .357 sig shooters do, so the .357 sig guys are already at a competitive disadvantage. For competitive purposes the .357 sig is a dinosaur. For carry/personal protection/law enforcement, it is a very effective cartridge.

Stated as well as can be!! Well done.......

I agree with most of this also. As a competition shooter I do not shoot the 357 Sig in matches. However I do carry an H-K USP-C in 357 Sig. When I use the gun in IDPA I switch to an EFK 9mm barrel (ammo is cheaper). All my other USPSA guns are in 9x23mm. The state I grew up in currently issues 357 Sig to their sworn officers and most prefer the caliber to others they have used.

The .357sig is a popular caliber....That is what the original question is correct?
It's really regional though. People like to carry what the police in there area carry. since most Police Depts. carry .40 that is what is most popular with the public. Texas for instance DPS carries .357sig in 226's. Most everybody else carries Glock 22. Guess what the two most popular calibers are in Tx. .357sig, and .40S&W (.22lr, and 30-30 win. actually) For carry though its .40, and .357sig.
There is a trend in L.E. SWAT starting where heavy sub-sonic 9mm is getting more, and more popular again I think its a combination of suppressers sweeping the nation, better ammo, training costs, Etc. The truth of the matter is that at any "team event" your handgun is secondary and when ALL handgun calibers suck it really is "splitting hairs". It would be interesting to see how many patrol officers follow suit, since the same influence is there that I spoke about with the public. Officers tend to want to carry what SWAT carries.

It is a cool caliber to own. It may not EXACTLY duplicate the .357 magnum round, but it is good enough for me. The Glock 33 replaced my SP101 in .357 in an ankle holster. More rounds and with a few extra magazines, it is a great set up. Although I still have the SP101, I favor the .357 Sig more.

Personal preference, I guess.

TAKJR

The 2 things I disliked about shooting .357 Sig are:

1. Cost
2. Recoil.

One thing that is nice about .357 Sig, when the ammo shortage was at it's peak .357 Sig was still more likely to be available at the local Wally-World as it is less popular.

I bought my P229 Sig in .40S&W to replace my S&W Highway Patrolman bored out to .44 Special, which I carried when backpacking in Black Bear country. Unless I was willing to have a round under the hammer I had only five shots available and damn slow reloading times at that. So..................,

1. I swapped out my Sig .40 bbl and put in a ported Barstow .357 bbl @/6 inches length. This length sticks out from the slide enough to where the porting works fairly well. I find that the ported .357 'jumps' less than the .40 and seems to be quite accurate. The 'felt' recoil in this combination seems less as well. Also, it allowed me to carry a a total of three quick-to-load magazines, rather than a handful of .44 Special rounds rolling around in my pocket. In my final analysis if I can't stop a Black Bear w/36 rounds of .357 I guess I deserve to be eaten.

2. 'No', I don't shoot in matches, but if I did I would seek out .22 matches so that I didn't go broke.

3. 'Yes', .357 ammo is unbelievable high in price. If I weren't so damn lazy I'd take up reloading again because I really do like that Sig 229 in .357.

Well............... to each his own, right?

Rod

I watched a guy using 357SIG at an IDPA match where the range was about half the normal lighting. The muzzle flash damn near blinded him.

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Certified AR-15 / SIG Armorer.

I can't understand how all these "Arm Chair" ballistics experts seem to disagree on this. There must not be a clear cut answer to the question. I looked at ballistics data, then formed my own opinion.

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Have Gun Will Carry

There are so many wrong assumptions and sheer BAD thinking in this discussion that it's simply staggering.

The .357 Sig is a devastatingly effective round, and this has been proven in a street record extending well over a decade of LE use.

It penetrates better than .40 or .45, and has tremendously improved stop power vs. the 9mm loads. Ever wonder why they came out with 9mm +P in the first place? 9mm simply WAS NOT getting the job done on the streets. You even see +P+ loads now that are all trying to do one thing, gain the massive stop power of the old .357 magnum wheelgun. Well guess what? It hasn't happened yet. 9mm is still 9mm, no matter how much frame-wrecking extra pressure you try and cram into it.

The .357 Sig was designed to duplicate the performance of the legendary 125 grain .357 magnum loads from 4" revolver barrels, and it suceeeds with gusto in this realm. Don't think theirs much of a difference in 9mm wounds vs. .357 Sig wounds? Well how about 4-5 inches of extra penetration in IWB standard 4 layer denim ballistics gelatin calibrated, and a wound channel 50-75% wider, for about 10 extra cubic inches of wound damage per round, or roughly 2-300% more tissue damage PER ROUND.

The simply fact is the .357 Sig is getting the job done, wheres the 9mm IS NOT. It should be no surprise that departments were getting rid of 9mm platforms as soon as .40 S&W was available, simply because the 9 was not doing it and departments desperatly needed ANYTHING with more power.

The .357 Sig is a newer round, and I think it is only a matter of time before we see more deps issuing guns/calibers in the cartridge. It is my personal opinion that .357 Sig is simply the most effective service cartridge ever devised. JMHO.

YMMV.

I tried the 357 Sig (Sig 226) in a PPC Duty gun match. Dept. furnished the ammo (it is expensive). At the close range one handed stage, muzzle flip was outrageous and near impossible to keep on the x ring when shooting fast. I worked several officer involved shootings and noticed the same pattern, muzzle flip caused the shots to string upward and in many cases over the suspect. The department is going to go back to the 45's (Sig 227's) in the future, we only wish the 357 Sig performed as well as all these posters claim. It has been a dismal failure in real life performance for us.

I am not VSP but worked with many of those guys over the years. They absolutely love the 357 Sig after going from model 64's to 10mm S&W's (FBI model), then to Sig 228 in 9mm and finally to the Sig in 357. Their shooting incidents noted above are correct.

You can safely carry a round under the hammer in any modern S&W revolver. It's with older single action revolvers where one keeps a chamber empty.

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SWHF #448

I really like shooting the 357Sig rounds I used a KKM stainless barrel to convert from 40 cal , uses the same mag Only negative is the cost and availability of ammo, I solved that by reloading using a 115gr FN copper clad bullet. Best of both guns in one. I also have a Sig 226 MK25 9MM with a .22lr conversion.
Probably like posted it isn't a very popular round much as the 10mm, never seen anyone at the range shooting either one of them

Reloding the 357sig became easy because of the tips I received on this forum they are supposed to be loaded like necked rifle cartridges with the lube etc. Found out running it through a 40 cal die and then through a 357 die solved that. Have done about 500 of them so far

Sig P229 Equinox 40S&W.jpg

WOW! What a rollicking discussion!

As someone else noted, the OP was asking only why the round is not more popular for competition! I think that was answered quite well by several contributors.

One thing that many can’t seem to agree on is the power of the .357Sig. The best response I saw was that it was intended to give performance near the 125-gr .357 Magnum load in a shorter barrel, 4”, I think. It clearly does that.

I see “Colt SAA” has contributed to this discussion. In another one, he related what longer barrels do for the round, and it is astounding, to me. So, while a 4” barrel may have been the goal, a 5” or 6” barrel really steps up the power, far more than for any 9mm. I am currently waiting for a 5” barrel for my Sig P226 X-5 All Around.

A former employer had been issuing 9mm Berettas and Sigs, issuing +P and what I think was +P+ ammo, and we were all quite happy with them. Many liked the .40S&W when it became available.

Some of us, and I was one, did not like the .40 and never shot it particularly well. Still don’t. I’m told that’s because it has a significantly different “pulse.” OKtherethen. Whoopdeedoo.

The armorer and training officers did comparisons of the 357Sig to 9mm+P and +P+ (I think). They conclusively demonstrated that the 357Sig shot appreciably flatter and delivered better penetration at distance that 9mm+P. I was one of many who found we could shoot the .357Sig better than the .40S&W. I qualified with it in a P229, equaling my performance with the 9mm P228 and +P ammo.

I still have a P229/357Sig, and one with the .40S&W barrel, so I can shoot them side by side. I always do better with the 357Sig. Get out to 25 meters or so (sorry, I had a metric employer) and I do WAAAY better with the 357Sig. I watched one guy lean his Beretta 96/357Sig against the windshield post of a Land Rover and hit beer bottles at more than 35 meters.

The fact is, ammo of all calibers has been improving and I’m not convinced that the 357Sig in a short barrel gives any real advantage over modern 9mm+P. Put it in a Beretta 96 with a 357Sig barrel, however, and the increased performance eclipses pretty much everything except the true .357 Magnum. Same for a 5” M&P and, from what “Colt SAA” says, the Sig P226 X5. I’d love to try it in a 1911 frame.

I used the round in competition because it was what I carried. I can’t reload it worth a cluck so since retiring and losing access to free ammo I buy it in 500-round packs from Georgia Arms.

To a lot of us its just another ho-hum 9mm.

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S&W Accumulator

In IDPA, you would be competing with 9mm minor. So unless you reload, you are giving up a lot in recoil for the same 9mm hole. I have shot mine in IDPA with full power ammo, just as practice, but if competing, 9mm, 357sig, 40, all go into the same div PF wise. I can reload 40 minor to the same recoil level as 9mm minor & a slightly bigger hole.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Most of the commercial .357 Sig ammo on the market is "watered down". If the .357 Sig is loaded to its potential, then it can produce as much energy as a .357 magnum.

.357 Magnum Speer Gold Dot LE Loads (at muzzle)...
125 Grain, 1450 FPS, 584 ft/lbs
158 Grain, 1235 FPS, 535 ft/lbs

.357 Sig Underwood Ammo (at muzzle)...
115 Grain, 1550 FPS, 614 ft/lbs
125 Grain, 1475 FPS, 604 ft/lbs
147 Grain, 1250 FPS, 510 ft/lbs