I am looking to get in to a revolver for uspsa but i like moon clips. will a 627 38 super handle major power factor or should i look at the 625 in 45 acp?

USPSA Revolver rules Appendix D6 specify only 6 shots can be fired before reload.
Are you sure you want to deal with the hassle of an 8-shot revolver, having to remember to only shoot 6?

The dominant USPSA revolver is the 625.
And you can also shoot it in IDPA/ESR if you get a 4" barrel.

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Science plus Art

do any one build a 6 shot in 38 super

It can do it, but 8 shot is kind of lame with the 6 shot cap. I shoot mine in open for giggles. Sure not competitive but lots of fun, running 7.0gr of longshot under 125gr RN bayou and fed 200 primers for a 171 PF. It is just starting to show cratering on the primers. I've run close to 800 through the gun with no problems. Get a 45 if you want to shoot revolver division.

S&W 625 is the king of revolver division. I've looked for the 4 inch S&W M610 or a M646 but have not seen one revolver shooter with either revolver. .40 cal would be ideal for major power factor and a economical reloading candidate but the revolver choices are very limited. I would be very interested to hear from a competitor shooting a M646. Just curious about the titanium cylinder and the durability and reliability. 6 inch M610 is to muzzle heavy and 4 inch M610's are a rare bear. While the 8 round S&W's are great for ICORE, the 6 round limit for USPSA is the competitor friendly choice. What a pain to load 40 or 50 8 round moonclips for a match, then post match pulling 6 spent & 2 live cartridges from your moon clips.

Buy a 6 shot 686 and have the cylinder cut for moon clips and 38 super. There is no minimum caliber for major pf according to the rules I just read.

One restriction, applies to major or minor:

Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length
.38 cal. / 9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”)

FWIW, S&W did make a run of 38 super 686's but they're pretty rare.

Case length for .38 Super is 0.894-0.898". SAAMI standard for .38 Super bullets is 0.356".

Might want to double check the major power factor rule. I believe .38 Super/9x19 can only be loaded major in Open Class. Revolver had to use .357mag for major.

Rule book is right in front of me. You can shoot 9 major if you want in revolver. There is no minimum cartridge for major pf only a minimum cartridge for the division. Does that mean you should shoot 9major.... no 38 super at major PF kinda hurts my wrists after about 200 rnds not to mention its a little blasty.

Why didn't you check the rules before posting? Would have saved us more mis-information.

If you're shooting USPSA all you need to be able to do is count to six and leave two loaded rounds behind on the ground in the moonclip. It's not like IDPA where they scream bloody murder if you do this. I use full power .357 Magnum in moonclips and I find that the longer cartridge is not particulary slow to speedload when all eight are loaded at a time. Only when you are forced to load only six into an eight shot moonclip does it become ridiculous.

Dave Sinko

I have a 686x6 in 38 Super. I have shot major with a 158 grain Berry plated bullet and Unique powder. Alliant used to list this load on their web site. I shot this combination at the USPSA Nationals a few years ago and had no problems at chrono. They thought my loaded moon clips were "cute".

You can build your own.
I had a (9mm) Speed Six converted to 9x23 but it seems to like .38 Super better.

Pinnacle lists the 686 (6 Shot) conversion to shoot 9mm, 38 Super, and 9x23 for $250. Rechambering to larger diameter case, and Moon Clip Cut.

TK sells the HearthCo Designed 38 Super Moon Clips for $74.95/10. The TK Clips are a robust .035 thick. They are THE Moon Clip to use.

Reloading I am not sure how a .358 bullet will work in a Super case. One may need to go with Super Bullets. The .356 and .358 are pretty close. Accuracy may be ok with .356. The .358 Bullets may reload ok also. I think one will just need to work with it after conversion. As the conversion will use 9X23 one might see how Starlines cases will work with .358 bullets. I read that Starline is a weaker case than the 9x23 Winchester cases. If the case wall is thinner, this might be a good thing for upsizing the bullets.

I have an older shooting buddy donating me his 38 Super brass left over from his competition pistol days. I have been torn between doing a 686 conversion, and donating the Super brass to another buddy who has a 38 Super 1911 Springfield.

Being a Moon Clip kinda guy this is tough. I already have a 625, 610, 310NG, 686x6 converted to use Moon Clips in 38/357, and a 442 Pro Moon Clip. Did I mention I like moon clip revolvers?

Bob

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ICORE MO2908

It works just fine. I load 124gr bayous sized to .358 in 38 super Starline Nickle brass.



These are the ones loaded to 170 pf

When I shot USPSA there were quite a few competitors that had "Super Face", that's the speckled hot gases and residue pock marks from burning pieces hitting them when the rounds "failed" form over stress. This eventually led to the lowered max lower power factor. I don't like working with or shooting next to one of these never knowing when it might explode. Lots of nice guns in the scrap pile from loading Major Super.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Same here. No way I'm shooting major 9 or major 38 Super in a revolver. Not even a Ti cylindered 627.

I do trim 38 special brass to .900" for minor (or more) loads when reloads are critical. Great when moonclipped in my 627s and also in modded Jetloaders for my K frames.

I'd have to recheck the rule book but I think the minimum caliber to make major is .40 caliber. I concur with tomcatt51, 9mm & .38 super major loads in revolver is not a load I would consider for my revolver. I personally know of 3 - 9mm major USPSA open gun failures in the past year, all resulting in cracked slides. I RO many many open shooters and the concussion from these major loads is very uncomfortable standing 3 - 4 ft. behind the competitor.

From the rule book, Appendix D6 Revolver Division:

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length_____.38 cal. / 9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major_____No

I've seen it too, the thing is the trend in open guns is extreme slide lightening(a lot look like swiss cheese) and the fact that they run 7-9lb recoil springs. Also the cracks generally start at the corner of the spring tunnel where there is a stress riser unless radiused. So it's not a simple statement that 9 major causes failures. I've see more KB's in production and that's minor.

The OMG concussion is from the slow powder we use to get the high gas volume needed to work the comp.

And high chamber pressures. It's gas (still) under "considerable" pressure that makes the comps/ports work.

I remember mine well, one of the 300 Model 646 Performance Center revolvers. Beautiful and well balanced, they for competing as 5" revolvers in pistol matches popular at the time in the various type action matches.

I was already shooting a pre-MIM Model 625, Model of 1989, in 5" along with my chopped Model 25-2 with a 3 1/2" tube . . .but the looks and the hype hooked me!

The shiny PC briefcase held all three thickness sizes of 40 S&W moon clips, the titanium cylinder and competition slab barrel and really breathtaking grips!

My initial sight in time and impression of the trigger and all showed it was a great revolver! A FEW DAYS LATER I SHOT IT IN A MATCH. I thought it would probably smoke my .45ACP moon-clipped N-frames.

Impressions? I shot one stage with it in an area steel match and I was totally done with the space gun!

Problems?

STRIKE 1: No .40S&W cartridge thickness standards and such necessitated the three different moonclip thickness types . . . and all three caused the cartridges to flop around, making fast reloads impossible like I was used to in my N-frame .45ACP revolvers.

STRIKE 2: The danged titanium cylinder caused the empties to all stick when TRYING to eject them.

STRIKE 3: In growing frustration for failing to eject the moonclips, I finally properly popped it with my open-hand in my well conditioned way . . . and that sucker bit me and drew blood instead!

I took a DNF and registered again, shooting one of my well-loved Smiths in .45ACP that had none of those problems at all, EVER! I can't remember which one! In action matches I could reload them just as fast as my 1911 custom limited autos.

I cleaned it, still in perfect, undamaged condition and put it in the safe!

THE DEATH NELL FOR THE 646 REVOLVERS IN COMPETITION . . .

It has been a while since I regularly have competed, but one of the big organizations banned the 5" wheelguns in their matches soon after I got mine, including my 5" 625. That made the new pseudo-"race gun" obsolete too! It probably could have eventually overcome the challenges of the 40 S&W cartridge when used in revolvers, but . . .

Even if that hadn't happened, maybe cartridge makers would have finally standardized specs for the 40 Smith and Wimpy cartridges too, but why. It remains an auto cartridge thanks to a gun game organization. Who knows, and I don't care? The 40S&W is a dying cartridge today anyway of course.

After the first run of 300 PC models, the remaining parts went into standard looking L frames called Model 646 for the final 700 or so, with the titanium cylinders too of course, and IIRC, they are all 4" barrel revolvers.

Today they are ultra-rare in both types . . . and every collector should have one.

I couldn't find photos of mine in my files (yet), but it looked identical to this one of course, and a collector on this forum got a fantastic specimen of one of the coolest looking S&W revolvers of all time . . . and I sold it right here, way back then, years ago.

Here is one I "stole" off the internet of the PC version. Wow, they were a perfect solution for a non-problem, IMHO . . . but I'm glad I got to shoot mine for a few days before letting it go to a serious collector on the forum. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. Great people here, and friends too!



I eventually sold my 625 5" too, and enjoyed smoking folks with my custom 3 1/2" 25-2. I'll never get rid of that magic wheelgun!

Others "back in the day" may of course have different opinions of the .40 caliber S&W cartridge in wheelguns. Maybe some still are around to post their impressions.

All the best, Tom

FWIW, I’ve shot .38s out of my 627-5 snubbie using moon clips without modification to the cylinder.

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213th FBINA

While I'm not sure of the worth of continuing this necro-thread, I want to address some of the things tom turner states in his post.

You are a little confused on your numbers - there were a total of appx 700 Model 646's made (400 PC and 300 regular production). As I understand it, there were some problems with the PC 646's, perhaps that's what tom was experiencing.

I shot my regular production 646 in IDPA for a number of years and experienced no such problems. Since the .40 S&W round is relatively new, there were SAAMI specs from the beginning, and in semi-auto cartridges the extractor groove is one of the specified dimensions, so I fail to see the need for multiple thickness moon clips. I shot mine using inexpensive Ranch Products moons (as I do my .45 ACP revos) with no problems. Like the .45, a little cartridge wobble in the clip actually facilitates loading, when you are talking about a caliber that starts with a "4" and there are only 6 chambers. The .40 would have been quicker had there been true RN bullet profiles.



The barrel was actually about 3 7/8" - what Smith would call "nominally four inches."

I have retired my 646, but continue to use .40 S&W for IDPA. The 646 moon clips conveniently fit the Ruger 10 mm Match Champion, and while the trigger takes a little getting used to (vs. the 646), there is a bit more heft due to the all stainless construction, ergo, less recoil.

The picture he shows is not a 646 PC, but is of similar configuration with the slab-sided barrel and Altamont grips. The cylinder of the 646 PC was titanium (just like the regular production ones) and the barrel length was 4". The PC versions were introduced in 2000 while the factory cleaned up the leftover parts and released the cobbled-up production version in 2003. The problems the PC version had were apparently remedied in the production guns. Even though the regular production guns were not considered PC guns, they were shipped in PC aluminum cases.

As to the original topic of this necro-thread, that has long since been resolved. When the USPSA rules were changed to allow the 8-round guns, it was mandated that they be designated minor caliber, regardless of chambering. I shot one of the 627-4 PC .38 Super guns in USPSA for several years. The 8-shot sub-40 moon clip guns are very picky about what moon clips to use in order to hold the cartridges rigidly so as to be able to hit those 8 small holes in the least amount of time. I had the best luck with the S&W split-arm design moon clips (probably made by Hearthco) and later found that by using Super Comp brass the best results were with the RIMZ poly clips meant for the 929.



This gun, too, has been retired and I should be picking up my upgraded 929, to replace it, from my gunsmith very soon.

Maybe now we can let this thread die the natural death it deserves.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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NRA Benefactor Member

Wow, those are some really cool revos, Pizza Bob! It's sad that they have been retired.

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protocalldesign.com

Old threads never die. They only fade away....

I have a 686-5 that will shoot 9mm, 38 Short Colt and 38 Super six shoot. Use 38 bullets in all rounds and meet all requirement. I mite sale it for the right price. Plus it has a 3.5 pound trigger double action, must use Federal Primers.