Just got the email. Possible combining of SSR & ESR divisions in IDPA.....& still no fully loaded 7 or 8 shots allowed.

I am a paid up IDPA member but certainly not super active but what the heck IDPA....I love my 625's & 627's, just never could feel "sporty" without the moons.

Here is a copy/paste of the email.

Another announcement almost as big is the addition of a new division in IDPA. We actually have two ideas and again, we want your input. The final specifics of each option are yet to be determined, as we want the members opinion first on which option to peruse.



Option 1: Compact Carry Pistol (CCP) – this would be for double action or single action guns. This division would be largely like SSP otherwise but the gun size would be limited to guns of M&P compact or Glock 19 size.



Option 2: Laser and Optic Pistol (LOP) – this division would allow for the mounting of a laser or slide mounted optic on the handgun. The optic would have to be mounted between the rear of the ejection port and the rear of the slide. Both single action and double action would be allowed. We might also add revolver to this division.



Remember, the complete requirements are not yet set for these divisions but we want you to tell us the direction to work on. To let us know, please got to www.surveymonkey.com/s/JT6HJDF to make your choice.



With the addition of this new division, we have also decided to eliminate the ESR Division. While we know that this will make a few people unhappy, the results for sanctioned matches in the past year show that ESR comprises less than 3 percent of all competitors. This number also holds true for classifications held by our entire membership. We are looking at the possibility of adding these guns back to SSR so that we do not completely lose our members ability to shoot them.

Comments or thoughts on their decisions?

I think they're responding to the numbers. 3% is a very small number to have a complete class of shooting. I think what will happen is that they will allow either moon or speed loaders in a combined revolver class (at least that's the impression I got from the email).

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Minimize the variables

I have gotten 2nd and third ESR master at the Winter Nationals and not had enough people in the class to even get recognized. I get it.

I will be going to the laser division.

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Shoot fast & live long
Warren

Compact Carry Division would make a lot more sense than optic at our club. Several already shoot with their carry gun, and several have asked about it. Going to be an interesting vote. Not sure how a slide mounted optic fits into the IDPA original goal of "a gun you could carry concealed;" really popular in 3 gun circles though.

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Science plus Art

A little hasty in their decision on ESR. They should be promoting it, not eliminating it. Now that the 8-shot revolvers are the hot set-up for USPSA there are lots of 625's that will go unused in competition. It would be a natural move to come into the IDPA fold. They need to get some gun writer in a popular magazine to do an article along those lines.

Combine ESR & SSR? While the difference in Power Factors somewhat helps mitigate the speed difference in reloading (moons vs. speed loaders), the SSR guns will still be at a disadvantage.

Looking back over these changes and the previous set of changes, I just wish the hierarchy at IDPA would have adhered to, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" We don't need constant rule changes, we need some stability.

JMHO

Adios,

Pizza Bob<----3%er

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NRA Benefactor Member

Wouldn't a 4" 625 with 45AR and speedloaders be an SSR? 250gr bullets @ 425 fps would be interesting...

I guess im just a "run what ya brung as long as its a production gun" kinda guy. I can certainly see the compettitive aspects of divisions, and the need to keep the sport realistic in nature. Which makes it tough to put a model 19 k frame with speed loaders in the same class as a moonclipped 627 & expect a good turnout.

I like the intent behind the IDPA, but i am biased due to the no 8 shot rule. I would love to run my 627 in CDP against those guys, or even ESP, i know there is USPSA, i dunno.

I guess the bottom line is there are just not enough revolver shooters involved.

If IDPA wants to be relevant, they should cater to the CCW folks. There's already USPSA for running a Glock 34 with 10 rounds in the mag.

Eliminating ESR is a step in the right direction; so few people shoot any kind of revolver, let alone enough to justify two divisions.

Would love to be able to use my 627- 8 shot. It doesn't make sense to me as a newbie why it's not and semi with 10-17 round magazines are? I would gladly compete with it over my M&P or P226. I know I'll never be a master or possibly even a sharpshooter, but I'm learning how to react under pressure (timed), and having a good time.

Pretty sure a guy or gal would have to be 6'8" and 300 lbs to be able to pull off carrying a 686 with a 6" barrel and scope as a concealed gun.

"Eliminating ESR is a step in the right direction; so few people shoot any kind of revolver, let alone enough to justify two divisions."

I see your point. Mabye a lessening of guidelines & divisions for revolver is a better approach to garner more participants. Might work out better.

Interested to see what comes of this.

As a ESR and SSR competitor, I am not real happy with IDPA's decision in this. Granted, the 3% stats may be the telling tale.

Many of us during the comment section hoped that IDPA would look at reducing the power factor in ESR to a more reasonable level. 135-140 would have been ideal, allowing for more .357 shooters to compete in the division.

My first reaction to the optics class is that IDPA is trying to emulate USPSA. Getting away from carry type guns of basic design is not in keeping with the skill set that they hoped to develop from the onset.

It is apparent that the current trend goes to the semi auto pistol category. And of course the masses gravitate to them, they are much easier to shoot. And the advantage of coming to the line with 31 rounds cannot be understated.

Sadly, shooters who have never learned to shoot a revolver in competition will never get to acquire that skill set.

Just my .02 worth.

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Take your time..quickly.

I think the reasoning behind the optics division being considered is that a lot of companies are now marketing "tactical" optics. They would not really be USPSA race guns, the guns are still going to be SSP or ESP guns with small optics on top. These are definitely not the same as a full bore open gun setup for USPSA, IPSC, or Bianchi Cup. I also strongly doubt IDPA is going to have any 31 round capacity magazines as legal. Even if they did, the best shooters would still be the best, and the worst would still be the worst. I shoot multiple action pistol disciplines and I can say without hesitation that no matter what you shoot, you have to do so quickly and accurately. USPSA Open is a remarkably difficult division to shoot. If it wasn't, and if it was just guys "spraying and praying" randomly, there wouldn't be the same top 10 - 15 guys winning events around the country every year. It would mean that any one could just strap on a gun and win an event by sheer luck.

That having been said, the compact division would make more sense to me if its a one or the other affair. I've heard people complain about wanting to use lasers/optics, but far more people are not content about 'carry gun' size versus full gun size for carry guns.

While I support a CCW division, think it needs to be smaller guns than Glock 19 class.

Am also very disappointed with elimination of ESR. Think it should be expanded to include 7 & 8 shot revolvers. Would likely strengthen the division

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Guns + Dogs= Bliss

I wish they would simplify. There should be a stock single stack division, stock double stack division, stock revolver division and a shoot anything division.

And by stock, if you can buy the part from the gun manufacturer, legal. Revolver = 6 shot, 7 shot, 8 shot. Shoot anything, do anything to the gun as long it can be concealed, optics, aftermarket barels whatever.

MattNH,

How would your proposed divisions differ from CDP, SSP, and SSR, respectively?

Or are you advocating dropping ESP and ESR and adding an "Open" class?

Why would they not just do a all stock revolver division together with different handicap levels for moons, speed load, 6 shot v 8 shot. Am not compeeting now but would like to in the near future. Cheers, Ted

I shoot at two IDPA clubs and no one shoots revolver unless I do. Since I only shoot at club matches, it doesn't matter to me if it's recognized or not.

Most of the IDPA shooters we have are young guys with entry level plastic guns. That seems to be the IDPA niche here.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Kinda. In CDP now i can't use 9mm, so my Beretta Type M or my Shield is SSP or ESP, depending on what I do to it, but at a "perceived" disadvantage with reload points.

So go to a stock single stack division, this would include all the single stack 9's that people actually carry up through 1911s. Change stuff like grips and sights and internal parts if they come from the OEM.

Do the same thing with the double stacks. As long as it can be concealed.

Same with revolvers, 6 shot, 7 shot, 8 shot, doesn't matter. Comes recessed for moon clips, use them, otherwise speed loaders.

They lump everything else into open. Go for optics, aftermarket barels, triggers, what ever you want to throw into the gun.

Have no more overall winner, but top in 4 divisions.

They current proposal keeps SSP (Glock 34/17 and M&P division) ESP (put a aluminum trigger in division) CDP (45's only), SSR (speed loaders vs moon clips) and adds the Glock 19 division and/or an optics division with no ESR.

The rules are way to complicated and don't have to be.

But, I'm not quitting my day job to be sponsored. I want to go shoot, with simple rules and be ranked against those with similar equipment. By the way, I shoot a Beretta 92FS in the competition, although I have never carried a day it my life. I used my Shield 40 in the BUG match even though it my carry gun until I gave it to my brother. Now I carry a S&W Model 60, not gonna use that in the regular game, but will in a BUG match.

While I agree the majority of IDPA shooters are in the SSP or ESP divisions, we have a small but growing group of wheel gun shooters. My wife, daughter & a friend's wife all prefer the K frame revolvers to the M&P, CZ, Sig, & Glocks.

I'll shoot SSR if I can't shoot ESR, but had hoped to continue competing w/ my 625.

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Guns + Dogs= Bliss

MattNH,

The net result of your proposed changes would be
To win CDP, run a 9mm 1911. 45s won't be competitive anymore.
To win SSP, run a big 9mm. Small guns will still be non competitive.
To win Revolver, run an 8 shot .38 special with moon clips. 6 shooters won't be competitive anymore.
To win Open, run as big and heavy a gun as allowed, with as many modifications as allowed. Basically IPSC open.

I don't really like any of those ideas.

I think splitting people out of SSP to create a new CSP (compact service pistol) class will be the best idea and most in line with IDPA stands for. It will also reduce the size of the biggest division.

You're a little confused on your history. There is a place in USPSA for the Glock 34 because of IDPA. Before IDPA was founded, there was no Production Division in USPSA. The reason the division was created was because IDPA demonstrated the popularity of self-defense style pistols in competition.

The exact same is true for Single Stack division.

Do they really consider a G19 a "compact" carry gun? Someone should tell all the PD's that they are packing CCW pistols and not service pistols! A optics division? Really? People CCW these? This only serves to show how far from the shoot what you carry concept they have come. Why does this new team feel like they have to change everything? They remind me of automobile engineers...unless they change this that work, they won't have a job...always looking to build a better mousetrap or redesign the wheel. Heck, just a little while ago, some "gun expert" writing for the IDPA mag advocated doing away with ALL revo divisions!

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17-2, 65-5, 442-2, 10-5

A couple years ago, over the winter, one of the local indoor ranges thought it would be fun to have a Conceal Carry shoot. I showed up with my S&W m-60 2 1/8" revolver. Several others showed up with their Glock 17's, 34's & 35's ,, full size 1911's,, etc..

One of the very few times I went to a IDPA match I had my 3" Kimber 1911. Again Glock 34's , 35's , full size this and that everywhere..

Really conceal carry guns ?? Really ?? I know lots of shooters,, cops ,, etc.. Only one maybe two guys I know, actually carry a full size 1911. A couple sometimes carry a G 17 /22. But, No one I know actually carries a G34 / 35.

" But, Really this IS my actual Carry gun ! " ,,, Ahhhhh Right ? ,, I don't really care, but it is funny ..

Not trying to sound as though I know it all or anything like that. This is only my opinion.

In my area there are two types of guys shooting revolvers, older gentleman who really enjoy shooting them and some other shooters who want to win in a division. Personally the guys who are really not good shooters at all that are chasing a win in the revolver divisions are sad to me. I shoot ssp and some CDP but do not care about the occasional class win I pick up. I just want to be top ten overall, none of the class/division stuff matters to me. If I shot a gun that did not fit into a division locally they would still allow me to shoot just not for the wins and I would be fine with that.

I hope they do not go the optic route because there would be a fair number of poor shooters doing way better than they would deserved verses the rest of the non optic shooters but hey who really cares. I predict that half of the guys currently shooting revolvers would move to the optics in my local clubs just to beat a few of the seasoned shooter for hollow victories. That and I really do not want to buy a new gun for competition only uses, because I hate losing to guys who do not have any real skills.

End of rant.

I personally would shoot at least half of the local matches with my carry gun no matter what the rule change, I already have been for years. A new division that would give me an advantage would be fine with me but really I do not care, I just want to beat some of my friends overall on currently only one of them is in my class/division who would no longer be if the rules change. Now if he went from his 34 to his carry gun the race would be on.

My biggest concern is how IDPA intends to meld ESR and SSR.

Let's face it, full moon clips are at least a full second faster on reloads than speed loaders. So now the rimmed cartridge shooters move further down the food chain.

Since the rules on stage design changed, every sanctioned match I have attended this year designed it's stages for semi auto pistol shooters. Rarely do you find a stage that gives wheel gunners a fighting chance anymore.

I know, I know...shoot a competitive pistol instead of that old antiquated wheelgun. How about the equipment inspector that I ran into at my last sanctioned match. Questioned me on my revolver being legal for SSR. "Unauthorized modification" removal of the rear sight he said...WHAT ?!?!?!?! Are you kidding me?

He had never seen what I was shooting that day. A Model 681. He had to check with the match director, who thankfully was knowledgeable about revolvers. Another shooter was using a Model 64 that day. Wow, TWO fixed sight wheelies in a single match !!!

If your not running a black pistol, your not flowing in the mainstream I guess.

Glad I didn't invest over 1K in a 625 like I was going to for next year. Just waiting to see what happens next.

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Take your time..quickly.

Now , That is Funny !!

We are all collectively holding our breath. Personally, I have to question the 3% number they purport. What is that based on? My bet would be sanctioned matches. The story may be different at the club level where more people, that wouldn't think of shooting a sanctioned match with a revolver, would give it a try, just for fun. Some of those go on and pursue competitive wheelguns to the extreme - that's your 3%. But the majority of revolver shooters are at the club level.

Just waiting to see what they screw-up next. Obviously they've never heard the old saw, "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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NRA Benefactor Member

I was an IDPA match director and safety officer instructor when they only had 4 divisions. 5" 625s were legal then. When they decided that they would change to 4" max. they basically said "tough luck' to the people who had purchased 5" revolvers. Then they added ESR to "make it fair". They started out saying they wanted to be vested in the club level matches but that quickly changed to the emphasis being on sponsored shooters at sanctioned matches. Now they are run by a committee and the rule changes make even less sense. Our club left when they basically told us that we exist to support the big national events and little more. A few people carry full sized service weapons concealed but they are the minority. The claim that they represent the real world of carry guns has been lost to them for a long time. Of course there is room now for a new sport to fill that niche.

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JOSHUA 1:9

I shoot IDPA-style matches at two local clubs, but I will NEVER join the IDPA national org. That's based on a number of direct personal experiences with Bill Wilson including having Wilson Combat do a build for me. I also remember when he demanded USPSA ban any mag over 10 rounds or he would withdraw his sponsor support for USPSA matches. We refused and he left...good riddance.

I don't care how they change the rules. I shoot whatever I feel like and the club is happy to get my entry fees.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

7 years ago my #2 son and I started shooting IDPA with semis. We had so much trouble with them we switched to wheelguns. I shoot a 625 in ESR and the #2 & #3 son shoot 686 SSR's. Because we began shooting wheelguns we learned to make shots count and trigger control. Something the National should consider.

All shooters should start with revolvers to learn trigger control and how to shoot without the big magazine crutch otherwise let's just open it up to 30 round mags.

Back when IDPA was being founded the CDP division was closely tailored to keep 1911's alive and well -- otherwise ESP/SSP would eliminate them. (Apparently all classes are created equal but some are more equal than others) So 3% is bad but 6% is good??? I shoot both classes

The real reason ESR is being eliminated is the power factor is set so high that most people don't want to take the pounding.

If they add a CCP class the barrel length should be limited to 3 1/2" or even 3" with a corresponding limit to 6 rounds. They could be wheelguns or semi's. Only then would they be truly compact

I am not sure where the 3% comes in BUT only 74 shooters classified in 2014 to shoot ESR. 74! I know for a fact two of those shooters used either the Ruger GP-100 or the 686 in .357Mag to classify. I was one of them and one other fellow from our club classified using his 686.

We are going to see the two divisions combined with the moon clip guns shooting at a slightly lower PF, down from 165 to remove some of the hurt. It will be interesting to see if this helps or just ends revolver division. I would have preferred IDPA to just let the 625 die out. The ESR Division was really a one gun division and at that limited to the US in the main. S&W never did make a 4.2" 625. Had they, I think SSR would have survived as is and grown now that Ruger and S&W are both making competition guns for the Division. I have both a Ruger GP-100 and a 686 Smith. I use the 686 as back up. You really cannot tell the difference when shooting both guns. The Ruger is one once lighter and has better sights than my 686. The latter are just stock notch & post.

Take Care

Bob
ps I agree with the fellow who suggested they should have left the 5" guns in ESR. With USPSA making the six shot revolver obsolete there would have been a lot of the guns up for sale. IPSC may follow USPSA by going to 8 shot revolvers as well.

I like the way you think!!!!!!