Does anyone use 38 Super for Bullseye competition? How does it compare to 45ACP as far as recoil and accuracy are concerned. I know that the smaller bullet affects scoring. I am thinking of maybe using a 125 grain SWC in 38 Super. I have a model 52 but it is old and worn with no parts available to speak of to return it to competition condition. Having arthritis in both hands and elbows the 45 is getting harder to handle even loaded down to the bare minimum. Any opinions?

The super 38 seems quite a bit more than needed for bullseye but if it works for you I'd use it. I'm sure there are S&W gunsmiths who could return you model 52 to shootable condition.

Why not 9mm?

I am not competent to talk about rules and regulations since my target shooting has been pretty informal, but I think generally the Super is capable of fine accuracy - IF the barrel and pistol (in general) are of good quality and are fitted for target work. Accuracy is not likely to be an issue, but whether you can load it down enough to make it comfortable/manageable for bullseye shooting and be within the rules may be.

If you are not troubled by rules and regulations and are just shooting for your own amusement, the answer is a very definite "yes!" - at least in my opinion. I've always enjoyed shooting the Super at paper targets and in general I probably shoot it better than a .45, when full-power ammunition is used in both guns. It is enough quicker that follow-through problems are "minimized."

Even with my "target loads" I probably still shoot the Super a tiny bit better - or at least equally well.

If you have good barrel that will shoot lead, you can load lead bullets in the Super, just as you would in the .45, and at 25-yards I don't have any accuracy concerns. My .38 Super also has a spare 9mm barrel (both Karts, ordered for shooting lead). Being "cheap," I shoot both calibers with lead bullets and 231 powder and I think they always "outshoot" me.

To me, it's something fun to tinker with, but probably nothing a real expert would care to indulge. Unless something has changed, I believe all the really serious shooters still rely on the best .45 they can afford.

I remember the .38 super leading the way on competition guns in the late 70's - early 90's

I'm confused about what you are trying to do.
The standard course of fire is a "3-gun aggregate." This is fired with .22 caliber rimfire, center fire, and .45 caliber pistols. However, it is not necessary that you have 3 different guns. In most tournaments you may enter and fire only one or more stages of the aggregate.
If you can't fire a 3-gun aggregate anymore because the .45 is too much for you, then why not just fire the .22 rimfire stage and let the center fire and .45 caliber stages go.
On the other hand, if you want to fire the centerfire also, why not use a smaller caliber centerfire pistol?
I just don't see the .38 Super as a good choice for centerfire pistol, unless that's all you have and can't afford buying another gun.

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Science plus Art

Sounds like you need a Clark 38 special. I own 3 -38 special autos & know how to keep them running. They will lay the brass at your feet.

I certainly would love to own a Clark Custom but sadly they are out of my budget. Kimber makes a 1911 chambered for the 38 Super, they are 1/3 the price of a Clark, certainly not as accurate but well enough for my old eyes and hands.

I don't have a 38 Super as yet, but might consider one if it will serve the purpose. My 52 is in need of a barrel which if I were lucky enough to find one it would probably cost around $400 to $500 bucks. Even with a new barrel the frame and slide needs work to be done plus the fact that pistolsmiths with knowledge of that model are few and far between.

Yes smaller calibers are easier to shoot but harder to setup for optics. The 1911 is a good platform for red dots. I do have a 1911 chambered in 9MM. Accuracy falls off when loaded down. It seems the high pressure 9MMs work better at mid to upper load levels.

Thanks for your input.

If you could spend a bit more maybe you could find a used Les Baer Premier II, which would probably seriously outshoot the Kimber. Something to consider...

Hello,
What you want is a 1911 converted to 38 special, such as a Clark, Giles, etc. There is a nice Nygord on GB right now.
38 super is not generally preferred for Bullseye.
But, if you want a centerfire pistol for bullseye that is low recoil and 1" to 1.5" accurate at 50 yds., you may want to consider the Pardini in 32 ACP. Yes, you read it right. Visit targettalk.org and read the Bullseye forum on there. I use the Pardini 22 and it is fantastic! Next CF pistol will be another Pardini!

Best regards,
Jim

I shot bullseye against a fellow who had a custom 38 super. He had an aftermarket barrel that the cases headspaced on the case mouth, rather than the old headspace method on the semi rim.

This was back in the 1980's, when it was discovered that the 38 super's accuracy problem was caused by inconsistent headspacing on the semi rim, which was the design at the time.

His gun shot pretty well. That being said, unless you are devoted to that cartridge, a 9mm, or even a 38 special would be a better choice, as brass is cheaper and more plentiful.

Another "brass hog" surfaces. Unfortunately for the Super, that's very true. I have to pay dearly for my .38 Super brass, whereas 9x19 brass is everywhere for next to nothing, so I do shoot the 9mm barrel in my gun quite a bit more than the Super barrel.

In spite of that, I remain unapologetic about my fondness of the .38 Super. Accuracy level of my .38 Super target loads equals my .38 Special target loads - very capable of "bullseye accuracy," at least in the hands of all but the most exceptional shooters. And .38 Special brass gets harder to come by (inexpensively) every day.

I have no illusions the .38 Super will ever get any more popular than it is now. For target shooting, I can do the same thing with 9mm cases and I don't see any difference in accuracy between the two. Both loads shoot better than I can see and hold, by quite a margin. So "the brass issue" is the only real drawback for me. JMHO.

Target loads for the .45 are pretty wimpy. I'm not sure you can down load the Super and gain anything.
Have you considered a .38 Special revolver? With good loads a 6" Model 14 can shoot with the best semi-autos.

If one must have a smaller caliber for Centerfire portion of 2700 match , a 38 Super is vastly superior to 38 special @ 50 yds & can be downloaded softer than 9mm without losing accuracy . Long time womens champ Ruby Fox shot one that Bob Marvel built with great effect . Personally if one does not consistently shoot Master scores I believe you should stick with the 45 for centerfire match . The 45 is the most difficult to master & IMHO should be shot both in CF & 45 matches . One does not have to shoot a smaller caliber in CF , but one does have to shoot a 45 in the 45 matches . I'm a firm believer in one gun , one trigger . Even my 22 is a Marvel conversion on a 1911 lower , setup exactly the same as my 45 wadgun with the same 3.5 lb roll trigger . Too many go off on tangents ie smaller CF calibers , best loads etc etc . Focus on flawless execution of the basic fundamentals , of which I consider trigger control to be paramount . If your fundamentals aren't solid , losing focus & going off on different paths will only hurt your scores . Stick with the 22 & the 45 both of which the rules state one MUST shoot .

boatbum101 has effectively and accurately answered your question. A 152 or 185 grain .45 with 3 grains of Bullseye will solve your centerfire requirements and is soft as a mother's love. I own one of the centerfire pistols fired by CPO Don Hamilton in 1969 at Camp Perry when he fired the highest aggregate score ever fired there. By the way, with all the dots and scopes and grand modern advantages, his record STILL stands today!

Sorry for the late reply. Been away from the forum for a long time.
I have a Les Baer .38Super. Paid for the guaranteed group size and gun has extras with grip etching, flared magwell and custom sight. Center to center, 10 shot, 50 yard test target is a shade under .70".
Smith 627 in Super never tested but shoots WAY better than I can hold.

@ gibekim,

I read your initial post very carefully, and noted that you are looking to shy away from the 45 because of arthritis in your hands and elbows. I was going to suggest a K38, but I believe that you would have more problems shooting a revolver than you are experiencing with your 45.

I have always liked the 38 Super, but don't own one. I have read that in the 1930s, the 38 Super was comparable to a 357 Magnum. I would think that a lot of work ($) would have to go into building a docile 38 Super. Wouldn't fitting a barrel and bushing on a 38 Super be a bit expensive, in addition to developing a load that times well with the 1911 action?

I am not trying to discourage you from shooting ... after I became disabled I spent months trying to figure a way to get back into high power. I applaud your tenacity. My biggest concern is that after you invest in accurizing a 38 Super for the centerfire stage of a 2700, you may find that the 38 Super recoil impulse is similar, if not greater than the recoil impulse of a 45! Looking back in time, you might find that a Walther GSP in 32 S&W Long might be your salvation! That pistol fires a 32 caliber full wadcutter, has the powder puff recoil of a 38 Special 148gr wadcutter, plus the advantage of cutting a nice clean hole, just like a 38!

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Judge control not gun control!

If you COMPETE in bullseye, you know that every point counts.
Simply put, a .45" hole will cut rings that a .355" hole won't.
I have won and lost matches by 1 point. Winning beats losing.
If you're serious about bullseye, .45 is the answer.
Unless it's EIC, maybe 9mm then if you're AMU. Even then, I will choose .45.
My wrists are shot. Knees, too. I still choose .45.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Completely agree. BE shooting you want the best accuracy with the biggest hole that produces the least recoil. You will see more than one BE shooter loading the .45 ACP with either 175 or 185 grain bullets Vs. 200 or 230's to reduce the felt recoil.

A 10 ring shot with a .38 or 9mm could easily be an "X" ring shot with a .45.

Ruby Fox shot a .38 Super with a compensator to help tame recoil. IIRC she did not stay with that set-up very long. I shot beside her a Camp Perry near the end of her shooting career and she was shooting a .45 for center fire.
I think you would have a truckload of money in a .38 Super by the time it was BE competitive, plus constant brass expense.
Why not pick up a used model 52? I would look at the .32's, Pardini or Benelli.
From what I understand, if you use a slide mounted optic, the recoil of the 9mm or .38 Super has to be equal to the .45 ACP to operate the slide. It makes sense since they would be equal weight.

Gibekim: There is a world of experience and opinions voice above about what is 'best' and why it is best for obtainable accuracy in bullseye equipment. IMHO, most of the above posts are very valid and on point from their point of view and experience. The problem is it is your problem and not theirs. YOU have to try various solutions until you hit on one that your mind accepts as 'the one'. Then you fine tune your loads and practice, practice, practice. During the hey-days of USPSA-IPSA competition, I built .38 super and .45 acps on Colt frame until I could listen to a customer's stated wishes and turn out just about what he exactly was describing. 38 Supers and 45 acps can be equally accurate depending on the shooter's physiology. The ignition/barrel time is different with the 38 S. being the 'snappier'. If the shooter has strong arms, hands, upper body that is not a problem. But, if the shooter has a little less strength, an infirmary or reaction problem the snappiness of the 38 S. can become an issue. In short either will work for you if your mind accepts it and your personal physiology allows it, and then you put in the practice time with lots of rounds down range.

I wish you and I lived closer. I have a slightly unique handgun that could be an almost instant problem solver for you. I would love to see you shoot it. It is a Springfield Arms built M 1911 that came with a ugly looking but very efficient optics mount that mounts to the frame by lots of drilled and tapped holes. The slide operates independently of the frame mounted optic sight and therefore can be 'recoil springed' for very light loads. With the usual customization most shooters do on their M 1911s you could shoot 45 acp that would be lighter in recoil than any ***** cat 38 Spec. or 38 S. and retrain the advantage of the bigger bore for scoring purposes. The options for internal modification and external for that matter on M 1911 pattern guns is endless. Equip your M 1911 with a barrel rifled for lighter lead bullets, a grip designed for your hand, choice of sights, a Brilley barrel bushing, custom trigger job and you are going to shoot well. Add, good reloading, dry fire and range practice, IMHO, you will shoot to satisfaction much longer in life that you seem to think you can right now. ........ Good luck! .........

You might spend some time researching hand loads to the 38 super that duplicate 38 spl performance (and firing behavior.) IMHO, factory 38 super loads can be pretty hot.

BTW, there are other options. for instance, I own and shoot Sig traditional Match Elite 1911's in 9mm and 40 S&W. When fed handloaded target fodder, they are recoil friendly and capable of accuracy better than most can hold them.

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Dave

Won't any of the custom barrel makers build a barrel for a model 52 for you. Most all of them should be familiar with the 52; I would think somebody reputable would make one for you. If you're at Camp Perry this year, you might ask around including the armorers at the military vans, including the National Guard.

I have three .38 super 1911s, one is a very compact once-off Kimber that is my carry gun. The others are a 4" and 5". I don't shoot Bullseye with them but the 4" is plenty accurate enough for me to shoot in IDPA competition and the 5" shoots better than I can hold.