Hello everyone. First let me say I am not a competition shooter and never have been. However, I am very serious about my recreational shooting. So I figured you guys and gals could help me out. Here's my problem...I'm a pretty fair shot with an autoloader and can tear one jagged hole in a silhouette target with 13 rounds from my Springfield XD 4" service model in .45 ACP. I've also done well with other pistols. The problem I have (and always have) is I can't shoot with any real accuracy with a revolver...whether it be my Colt Commando .38 Special, my S&W 13-1 or my newly acquired S&W 66-1 .357. I've tried different sight pictures/hold, etc. But nothing seems to help improve my accuracy. Any advice on what I may be doing wrong? Thanks for the help!

I doubt I could ever help, but want to ask is your trouble only with double action or also with single action.

I was going to ask the same question as "gunnails". You can look on line or read about the differant stances and holds and find one thats comfortable for you. The first and foremost answer IMO is Sight Alignment and Sight Picture- Start by dry firing until your arms are sore- keep those sights aligned and put that alignment on the target. Next comes trigger control.
Try and let that weapon surprise you when the hammer falls.
I'm old school and I think you might expect too much too fast. It takes practice, work, confidence in yourself and a lot of ammo to become a really good shooter.
Thats part of the fun.
Good Shooting
Jim

There are many tips available on youtube.

I do better with rubber grips.

Shoot what with the revolver -
Defense or bullseye?
One hand or two hand?
Single or double action?
Then do the grips fit your hand(s) for the grip/shooting you want to do?
Does the gun point naturally once you decide on the above and have the fitting grips installed?
For me, I always shot better if I got the thumb/index web of my strong hand as high on the grip as possible.
Then what they said in the above posts.
Dry fire, concentrating on the front sight never coming off the target as you squeeze, break, and the hammer falls. Do this every day until you achieve this, then move to live fire. You will be amazed.
BTW, if you can use a laser when you live fire and you'll see any movement in the firing process quite clearly.

I'm guessing that you having difficulty when shooting in double action. If so I have to tell you that the only solution is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and more PRACTICE. When I first started working with my model 67 I shot the rims off of 3 SETS of snap caps working on refining my trigger stroke. While it's a bit of a guess I would say that was about 5000 pulls of the trigger. While doing this practice I made sure to make each trigger stroke a complete motion from start to release, because pausing to Stage the trigger just before it breaks won't ever allow you to develop a good smooth stroke of the trigger. I also watched my sight picture during the complete stroke and worked to minimize any movement of the sight picture at the end of the trigger stroke. Then I started doing the same in Live Fire and today I will devote 1/2 of my range time shooting with a double action revolver or semi auto.

So, what's the result. First, I concentrate on Effective Combat Shooting. This means I am NOT looking for pretty little groups, I am looking for Effective hits on my target. I also work with a shot timer on occasion just to test my rate of fire. So, at 30 feet with a 0.3 second split time I can put 6 out of 6 into the head of a B-27 R, which means I'm grouping around 5 to 6 inches. When I was younger and could actually see my sights clearly I would have regarded that as a rather poor result. However back then I was all about shooting tiny little groups and generally took a full second or more for each shot. Got cured of that right quick the first time I took training for a Concealed Pistol License. As my Instructor stated real clearly, "if you shoot like that in a real gunfight you won't last to fire the first shot". Today I concentrate on effective and while it's not pretty 6 rounds into a head sized target in just a bit under 2 seconds is most certainly effective. And it doesn't matter what I am shooting, be it my 2 1/2 inch model 19, my Ruger LC9S Pro, or my SR1911 CMD the results are nearly the same. Because once you have developed a good double action trigger stroke you can shoot well with any type of trigger.

In addition to what others have said you might try having someone video you at the range. Try different views that capture double action trigger pull (flinching) and stance. As to grips try and find something close to those of the semi autos you have.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Hi...it happens in both SA & DA.

Thanks for all the excellent tips. I really appreciate it. In response to one of the above questions, I'd just mainly like to get better at target shooting. I shot Sunday and could barely hit a bowling pin from about 10 yards....

@Papa,

Taking note of your revolvers, I noticed that they are all fixed sight, so it is not a matter of sight adjustment. I would suggest that you focus on one revolver at the moment, and learn the basics with it. I would suggest that you might focus on shooting wadcutters at a large paper plate at about 7-10 yards single action, and work on keeping all of the shots on the plate. As the groups get smaller, gradually move the target back.

You want to use standard velocity loads for this exercise, in order order to develop your skills.

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

Excellent advice all around, particularly from scooter123.

I'm on the same quest as you so I'm by no means an expert. For what it's worth, though, I can offer some thoughts on the things I've run up against after I started shooting revolver in USPSA and ICORE about six months ago.

scooter is right about staging shots. I've used it successfully in bowling pin shooting but it's ultimately a stop-gap solution that you'll have to overcome when you move to anything faster. I've found dry-fire drills to be a big help. Start slow and work on getting a clean, consistent pull. Grant Cunningham (I think?) advises that the trigger shouldn't stop once it's in motion. Follow your sights all the way through the pull - it doesn't matter if they move, you just want them on-target when the trigger breaks.

The old standby of balancing a quarter or dummy round on top of the gun while you work the action one-handed works great for developing trigger feel. I actually need to do a little more of that.

The other big thing to look for is jerking the trigger at the end of the pull. It's far easier to do with revolvers since the action is long and tends to be heavy; you may be sweeping upward just before the break. It's entirely possible that the trigger stroke you develop involves a little "sliding" on the way back (I actually ride the bottom edge of my Chiappa Rhino's trigger because it has a very dramatic up-sweep just before it breaks). I've also recently noticed that I'm anticipating the break WAY more than I should be. I had a few ignition failures when I was messing with my Model 10's springs. On the duds, I was making the barrel nose-dive in preparation for the "boom". I know there are drills to fix this but I've gotta go do some reading on them.

Grip is one that varies based on the person, gun, and grips. I use thumbs-forward on my Model 10 and some bizarro one on the Rhino where my off-hand thumb rests on the cylinder guard. If anyone has advice on how to determine if a grip is good or not I'd be all ears.

So yeah, there's some ramblings for you. Hopefully you find something useful in there!

- Matt
Revolver Enthusiast and Awful Competitive Shooter

Hi, actually the 66-1 has an adjustable rear sight. However, I haven't had a chance to fool with it yet having just bought it last Saturday. I plan to shoot with my sons tomorrow and will try some of these tips. Unfortunately, I don't have a basement and my wife isn't too hip on me dry firing in the living room even though she's a "gun gal".

Take the 66-1 to the range and use a rest and sight it in for the ammo you are wanting to shoot. I found that I was shooting 4" low when I used a 130 grain bullet vs. a 158 grain bullet. Once I sighted in to my Model 19 2-1/2" snub, my scores improved wildly while shooting IDPA which is all double action. Use a single action to sight it in and then practice, practice practice using the same ammo.
Good Luck,
Stonecove

Move your hand 'till it feels right and you shoot 10s!

Really, I wish it was easier. Once you get good at it, it becomes second nature. Here's what I do:

Start off with the handgun unloaded, on the table in front of you.

(1) Pick up the handgun with your off/support/weak hand, by the muzzle end.

(2) With your gun hand, make as if you were about to shake hands, thumb up.

(3) Place the gun in your gun hand. Your gun hand should not move. The backstrap should go from the web of your thumb to the wrist-heel joint. When you press the gun in, you should feel your four fingers involuntarily close.

(4) Pointing the gun in a safe direction, let your trigger finger fall on the trigger. If it's sub-optimally placed (too far in, too far out, too high, too low, whatever), go back to step 1 and make adjustments.

(5) Close your bottom three fingers.

(6) Let your thumb relax however it wants to relax. It should apply no pressure to the gun. If it does, you will push your shots to the left or right, depending on how much you unconsciously balance this and how your subconscious mind decides to do it.

(7) Adopt your stance and point the gun at the target. If all goes well and your stance isn't off, the sights should align naturally. Don't worry if it doesn't naturally point at the target (unless you have religious devotion to N P of A), or if it's slightly off. You'll get better with practice. Beginners should consider it successful if they don't have to hunt for the front sight.

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I respectfully semi-disagree. I think that the sentiment is correct, but it's a long way around doing it correctly. Even my newest, least-used pistol has hundreds of rounds through it. The most, several thousand. I know when that bang's a-comin'.

The problem is that it serves you well until you reach that point of familiarity, after which you just get really frustrated into you graduate to...

Your subconscious--he's a terrible shooter--is always going to tell you "gun's gonna go off, gun's gonna go off, almost there". And then he's gonna tell you that fateful thing, the Root of All Poor Precision Shooting, the One True Evil:

"The sight/dot/crosshair isn't on the X, why are you still pulling the trigger? You should stop and wait for it to get on the 10-ring!"

To succeed, you have to dominate that scrub voice. Maintain conscious control of what you're doing. You have to think in four dimensions--the sight's not on the 10-ring now, but that's okay, because the hammer hasn't fallen. And you don't know where it will be when it does.

That's why people shoot great with new guns, then gradually work down to their average. They're taking that "shot surprise" trick and it's actually working because they don't know the trigger well enough.

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I would suggest careful dry fire. It's really easy to work terrible habits into your shooting unless you have a plan for dry fire training. In this instance, focus on maintaining sight alignment through the pull. Use a target, but focus on maintaining alignment, and screw where the sights are aligned to.

For shooting, back the target up to 3 or 5 yards, and use a target about the size of your groups with a semiauto at your target range (so if you shoot a 3" group at 10 yards--be honest--use a 3" target at 3 or 5 yards).

I call the game 10-0. Shots within the target score 10. Outside scores 0. At five consecutive perfect strings, replace the target and move it out to 7. Repeat until you're at your target range. Focus on alignment and smoothly increasing trigger pressure until the shot.

Don't be cheap with your targets, replace them as soon as you can't immediately tell where the shot went. The whole point of starting at stupidly close ranges is feedback. You have no excuses for missing, and you can see immediately where your shot went.

Wow! So much great information and advice. I am almost overwhelmed. Unfortunately, I did NOT get to make it to the range the other day. However, I DID try something else that kind of puzzled me. I stuck my laser boresighter in the 66-1 and aimed at the wall and tried to get the red dot where I thought it should be in relation to the sights when I was aiming...meaning top of front sight aligned with top of rear sight as I would do while shooting a semi-auto. No matter how much I adjusted the rear sight, I never could get it where I thought it should be. What am I missing here? I understand a revolver is a revolver and semi-auto is a semi-auto...but should the sight alignment not at least be similar?

Outstanding post, Wise_A! The "A" must be for "Always". Or maybe "Awesome"?

Interesting you brought up bullet weight. I recently read somewhere else that these guns shot more accurately with a 158 grain bullet. Something about the cylinder to forcing cone gap and pressure I believe. If this is the case I definitely need to get me some 158 grain SWC's to practice with. Thanks again for the excellent advice everyone!

Okay....stupid question....but I'm guessing you guys are talking about practicing with .38's instead of .357's correct? At least I believe that's what @lrrifleman was referring to?

.38s are perfect for practice at your stage of the game.
In addition to the excellent suggestions I suggest starting in close, 7yds.
You will see your hits and gain confidence.
I transitioned back and forth between autos and revolvers a few times
depending on what kind of competition I was into and found in close helped in getting things right again.
With my first DA revolver I was terrible trying to shoot SA. One day I got upset about it and rapped off 6rds double action at 50yds on a deer target.
5of6 went in the heart. I hope you find your niche.
Jim

TY! And...well...close, but not quite, heh!

Laser boresighters are excellent tools. They're good for getting you on the paper before you head to the range, although I've found most 'dots and such are pretty close right off the bat with some care in mounting.

What a boresight is really good for is practicing hold, although you may need a spotter. Grab a piece of paper and make a decent-sized cross intersection, with lines a couple of inches thick. Start off by just trying to keep the vertical. Top-to-bottom is fine, so long as it doesn't go outside to the left or right. Then move on to just trying to hold the horizontal. When you can do both, focus on doing the intersection of the two.

The goal here isn't to get a steadier hold, although you may be successful in that. What you're trying to do is recognize when your hold is steadiest. Many competitors, presented with a slow-fire/single-action situation, take way too long to take a shot. You can watch them raise the gun, settle it on the target, and then sit there and wait until their hold gets increasingly shaky. Then, instead of aborting the shot and starting over, they take a forced shot. So they go from an 8-10, lower that to a 7-10 (with increasingly less of a chance of a 10) by waiting until their hold is terrible, and then they throw the shot out to the 5 or 6 ring by forcing the shot.

By shooting slower, they lower their scores. It's another subconscious thing--this time, it's telling you that a slow shot is a careful shot, and a careful shot is a good shot. Careful doesn't mean shooting slow, it means not taking bad shots. Good shooters don't make good shots--they just refuse to take bad ones.

For sighting in, I prefer to do it off-hand. Resting a handgun bears little relation to actually shooting it. The other thing is--it doesn't actually matter if the sights correspond to the point of impact.

The only thing that does matter is where the groups go.

I'm lucky in that I can call my shots. I don't always hit what I aim at, but I do know when I hit it. So I can take a handful of shots, throw out the bad ones, and just move the good ones by adjusting the sights. Unfortunately, calling your shots is a really difficult skill to learn.

If you can't call shots, just work off the groups. Start close and work progressively farther out. Almost always, you'll get at least 2-3 shots bunched up, and another 2-3 are scattered. If you don't, work in groups of 10 instead of 5--however many it takes to get a recognizable group.

Try to maintain a consistent grip between groups, and pay attention to light conditions, as they'll shift your POA-POI relationship with iron sights.

It sounds bizarre, I know. But this is how most bullseye guys zero a red-dot on a pistol. The 10-ring of an indoor slow fire target is .9" across, shot at a range of 50 ft (17 yards), so this method is actually far more precise than it would first appear.

I would use a .38 Spl. Don't need any recoil complications.

There has been some great advice in this thread... The only thing I could add is that shooting a revolver well boils down to trigger control and sight picture... The Wall Drill can be a huge help with this.

Hold the gun so it is maybe 1" away from a blank wall and dry fire the gun.. focus 100% on the sights and keep at it until the sights do not move when you pull the trigger....

Here is a link to a great video from the king of the revolver, Jerry Miculek.

This is the one I always struggle with. Brian Enos recommends the same thing, but I have no control if I don't apply at least some pressure with my thumbs (mostly the strong hand one). Maybe because I have small hands?

Other ICORE shooters have recommended the two-handed, white-knuckled death grip. I guess it works for them (they were both very good shooters) but I lost so much mobility in my trigger finger that it was a disaster for me.

I think it's fair to say that not every technique works for every person.

As in, you get leftward push from the trigger (presuming you're a righty)? Or just all the time, like the gun wants to roll on your hand when you squeeze it?

#1 is trigger finger placement. #2 is the placement of the backstrap on the palm, or placement of the lower three finger across the frontstrap.

On combat-type S&W grips, my strong thumb sort of curls over the top of the grip, and my support thumb points a little forward. I've got small palms but fairly long fingers. Some J-frames are a little tough to get a grip on, my fingers bunch up too much.

I tried tight grips, but never had much success with either autos or sixguns (even my 629). Most of it's in the wrist and forearm anyway, I think. How tight you can go is a matter of hand strength. The more you develop, the more pressure you can apply without losing fine control. But so long as you can grab the muzzle and and yank it all around without feeling the gun shift in your hand, you're fine.

I did not read all of this, but are you shooting right handed with a left dominant eye? That is a problem in and of itself. just a thought

Hi, no I'm right eye dominant and shoot with both eyes open focusing on the front sight. I've had excellent results doing this with pistols, shotguns, etc. Revolvers.....not so much.

WOW! Absolutely awesome video! Thanks!

@Pappy,

Yes, you want to develop your skills with 38 Special ammo, preferably wadcutters.

You need to be careful with your laser drill. The laser and sight line may not intersect until they are 15 to 20 yards or more from the handgun. At about 5-7 yards, laser pin point will be about an inch or so below the sight line.

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

Lots of good tricks given here.If I may add my 2cents:

A)Shooting an auto is very different than a revolver and most of that difference lies in the different grip angle and contour.So,what you experience is perfectly normal.

B)I'd say at this point and since you can do well with an auto which means that you know the basics of the drill,I'd say that one very important thing you might be missing is a grip that fits your hand.Just like I wouldn't or couldn't walk a mile wearing boots that don't fit me,the same applies for shooting with grips that won't fit.Go out and don't be afraid to ask fellow shooters to try some grips before investing in a good pair.

C)Considering point B),you probably will not find a good set of grips that will let you shoot top scores in both single and double action(position and pressure of the hands are different).At best you'll find a compromise.But still,a good compromise is better than most standard grips supplied by manufacturers.

Good shooting!
Qc

Get a good action job. Jerry makes a great video if you want to do it yourself.

Next, practice double action without staging the trigger. You want to come through in one steady motion without disturbing the sights. Advantage of the revolver is that you can dry fire it to no end without any harm. Make sure you are still aiming at the target when the gun goes off. That's probably the biggest problem most shooters have.

Start at 5 yards and practice until you are satisfied with your groups then move back to 10, 15 and 25 yards.

My favorite activity is the Steel Challenge Shooting Association Matches. My goal is to shoot each 5 shot string with only 5 shots. It's very difficult to do but can be done. ICORE is my next favorite. You've got to put them all in the 8 inch center and a majority in the 4 inch X ring.

Dry fire will help. I put about 400 rounds a week through my revolver in practice and about another 200 in matches. Keep up the good work and you will get there.