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Smith & Wesson Competitive Shooting All aspects of competitive shooting using Smith and Wesson Firearms. Including: IPSC, IDPA, Silhouette, Bullseye.


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Old 11-13-2016, 02:27 AM
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Default One Year Later with Reloder7 and IMR4198

After years of fighting lead buildup in the forcing cones and bores of my various .44 mag IHMSA revolvers, a transition was made to fast rifle powders. Scores haven't suffered, actually up some, and now no worries about "reseasoning" barrels after cleaning. Which can take longer than one would think!

All three .44s fielded this year threw 240gr Speer swaged lead semi-wadcutters with the 29-3s getting an additional wax/LLA coating to bump up the effective diameter for the big throats. The 629-6 only needs for the bullets to be tumble lubed with LLA or Ben's Liquid Lube (a modified LLA). (Same bullet prep that was done with the old pistol powder loads used previously.)
Something near on 3000 rounds launched this year in total.

So, at least ten matches with 29-3 #1 in Field Pistol, plus lots more practice sessions and we have the following with no cleaning since February. Almost all with a case full of Reloder7:






Some waxy buildup on the crown.


Lots of carbon and wax on the recoil shield, but no functional impact!


And a bit nasty on the underside of the topstrap.

Don't believe I will be cleaning the bore on this revolver. It's quite "happy" as is! The rest will get scrubbed, mostly to keep my hands cleaner whilst loading, etc.

In comparision, here's last year's state at the end of the season 2015 using mostly WW231:










The 629-6 isn't much different, even though it had near on three times as many rounds through it. More on that revolver later.
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Old 11-13-2016, 09:00 AM
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That's a HUGE difference between powders. Whodda thought? I'm pretty anal about cleaning my guns after each outing so have never observed that kind of build up. Even so, I'll be giving the 4198 a try. Great pics BTW.
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Old 11-13-2016, 11:20 AM
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The waxed and also the LLA lubed Speer bulleted rounds are much like .22 rimfire ammo. Remove the deposits and POI is a bit different. Left alone, the deposits work quite well at preserving the metal from corrosion. Alox was originally intended as a corrosion barrier! Just happens to be an outstanding bore lube as well.

I have a friend who got a Ruger .22 auto pistol recovered by the police from a swamp. The thing was rusted all over and the non-steel metal bits like the trigger were completely corroded away. But that "dirty" bulletwax coated bore was pristine! So he put it back in working order and it shoots just fine.

But I'm more about consistency. Not only does it take time to re-season the bore, it takes five times as long to do the chambers and throats. (Since only five get used: That's why one chamber has the silver arrow drawn on the outside.)
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Old 11-13-2016, 12:03 PM
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WOW, impressive difference!
Just curious, where do you get reloading data for those powders for the 44 magnum? I'm not seeing any in the IMR or Alliant online reloading manuals...
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Old 11-13-2016, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
WOW, impressive difference!
Just curious, where do you get reloading data for those powders for the 44 magnum? I'm not seeing any in the IMR or Alliant online reloading manuals...
Went off the reservation with these loads. But felt confident enough after finding a 44-40 load in the Lee manual that used 4198, IIRC.

If unburned powder bothers you, stay away! Or if using mass quantities (relative to most handgun loads) of powder hurts your wallet's feelings, this type of load probably won't make you happy.

But the upsides outweigh the negatives for me. Excellent accuracy with cheap swaged lead bullets out to 150m. 200m if the wind isn't too bad. No worries about fouling out and losing accuracy in the middle of a match. Easy on the revolver, I think, too. Especially in the forcing cone and rifling origin area due to the low temp flame front. (Remember: lots of unburnt powder?)

AND, no worries about powder position sensitivity! Because the case is full, it doesn't shift. A HUGE gremlin when shooting 75 yards and further. Had lots of "mystery misses" high or low until that factor was discovered. Probably the real reason this experiment was finally started. (Slow brain today!)

Last edited by jaymoore; 11-13-2016 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 11-13-2016, 02:27 PM
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Hello Jaymoore. Lots of questions, as I have never shot IHMSA.

What kind of velocities are you getting with you fast rifle powder loads?

Why a soft swaged bullet as opposed to hard cast, or jacketed?

I thought the intent of this competition was to knock over steel silhouettes at longer ranges? Would not low velocities, and soft, lighter weight bullets work against you?

Thanks, Larry
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Old 11-14-2016, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
Hello Jaymoore. Lots of questions, as I have never shot IHMSA.

What kind of velocities are you getting with you fast rifle powder loads?
900-1000fps, depending on revolver, bbl length, etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
Why a soft swaged bullet as opposed to hard cast, or jacketed?
Uniformity over cast projectiles. I have yet to find a long range .44 load using cast bullets that was much good past fifty yards. That includes store bought and home cast. I even weigh each and every bullet, sorting them by 1/10 gr increments. And visually inspect each one for fill out and signs of voids. Lots of work! (For some reason .45 Colt does rather better than the smaller calibers in regards to cast bullet accuracy in revolvers.) Kdiver58 fought with cast bullets in .357s until he bailed and went to plated bullets. Scores went up pretty quickly thereafter. But plated bullets can't be driven much harder than swaged, just ask 75Vette!


A cast bullet weighing session


Cost and rifling preservation over jacketed. Things really haven't changed much since Elmer Keith's days as regards rifling wear in revolvers. Barrel steel is still relatively soft for production reasons. And flame cutting/gas erosion doesn't much care what hardness the steel is! I have shot out more than one revolver barrel as regards maximum accuracy, both stainless, BTW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
I thought the intent of this competition was to knock over steel silhouettes at longer ranges? Would not low velocities, and soft, lighter weight bullets work against you?

Thanks, Larry
Velocity loss through the transonic range is pretty brutal. And wind drift is worse until you get well over 1400fps. Below sonic, wind effects diminish.

Funnily enough, soft projectiles may actually do better than super hard lead bullets as the latter tend to "shatter" on impact. Well known bother for steel shooters.

240gr pills aren't "lightweight" for .44s. Any more, 158-180gr .357 mag bullets should do the job out to 200m. Kdiver58's .25 BR Unlimited pistol is pushing 117gr bullets at about 1700fps and seems to be OK. Possibly a bit marginal, but he's only shot a few BB matches with it so far. And as far as 100yd Field Pistol goes, anything more than .22 Hornet is way more than is needed! .32 H&R mag is certainly enough.

Basically, my main concerns are uniformity, accuracy and having enough sight travel to shoot anywhere from 25 yards to 200 meters. The 10 5/8" AFS's front sight has roughly (depends on the individual revolver) 37 MOA of useful travel. Comfortably more than is needed.

Have only lost one 200m 55 lb Ram to date with a hit exactly in the wrong spot. It's center of balance, so to speak. Beautiful hit that just pushed it straight back a wee amount. Kdiver58 watched the event through the spotting scope. A hit probably an inch or two away in any direction would have taken it down.

So, given the .44's limitations, going just subsonic isn't a bad thing. And it's easier on the shooter. A lot to be said for lack of recoil and blast when shooting multiple entries standing on your hind legs.

Good questions!

Last edited by jaymoore; 11-14-2016 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:44 AM
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Default Slow Powders in .45 Colt for Field Pistol Competition

Regarding Reloder7 and IMR 4198 in .45 Colt: Weirdly, whilst there's not a nickle's worth of difference in the .44 mag., the two powders don't act the same in the roomier .45 case. Re7 seems too slow. IMR4198 works much better when either powder is loaded to the base of the bullet. Most particularly with 200gr H&G SWCs.

Aside from the powder position sensitivity, which is even more pronounced in .45 Colt, I'm not sure the gains are as worthwhile using 4198. Leading isn't as bad, even using 8.0 gr WW231, as with the .44s.
Accuracy tests ongoing.
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:51 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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I used to shoot IMR SR 4759 (another fast rifle powder )in my 44 mags some . It was a great load using the Keith 245 gr swc . Unfortunately Hodgdons dropped it , right along with PB , 4756 and 7625 . Today I use a lot of IMR 4227 when I want more power in my 44's . I also use it a in 41's and 45LC . With this particular powder I always use a " Full " magnum primer , not the Winchester ( one fits all ) .
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Old 11-17-2016, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
I used to shoot IMR SR 4759 (another fast rifle powder )in my 44 mags some . It was a great load using the Keith 245 gr swc . Unfortunately Hodgdons dropped it , right along with PB , 4756 and 7625 . Today I use a lot of IMR 4227 when I want more power in my 44's . I also use it a in 41's and 45LC . With this particular powder I always use a " Full " magnum primer , not the Winchester ( one fits all ) .
I managed to accumulate quite a bit of SR4759 in the past year, but it's dedicated to rifle cartridge cast bullet loads. (Which includes a 14" Contender barrel 7-30 Waters that shows promise as an Unlimited BB IHMSA entry.) Recent manufacture, hoping that it reappears sporadically!

Lots of folk like IMR4227, but I just can't get it to the accuracy level of other loads. It may just be a matter of finding the "sweet spot". You'd think it wouldn't be all that hard, given it's wide range of acceptable pressures.
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