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Old 06-30-2017, 10:45 PM
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I am new in IDPA, actually only ever competed once so far. I know that a revolver reload is almost always done muzzle up and I know that the IDPA rules allow it. Even at the range our group uses where "no muzzle above the berm" is the constant warning to all competitors at all points of the process I am allowed a muzzle high reload in revolver class, at least a muzzle high ejection as per the most popular and used method.

I plan to start out a new habit in this new to me sport and am practicing a muzzle down ejection style.

When I have fired the whole cylinder I start the reload by turning the gun (686 SSR) horizontal with the release side down. Right thumb does the release forward motion, trigger finger does the cylinder swing out and rolls the gun down below horizontal. Left hand is flattened and I slap the ejector back and up while I push the gun forward and down with the right hand wrapped around the hammer end of the frame window, first and second finger on the big flat at the back of the window and thumb under the hammer (DON'T DROP IT DON'T DROP IT). Eyes now on weapon,bring it back to sights up but muzzle down orientation in my right hand (and repeat the slap if necessary), grab the frame by the cylinder and outside of the trigger guard left hand, speedloader right hand and I LOOK the rounds down into the cylinder and then eyes back on target as the cylinder swings shut and the right hand gets loose of the speedloader and back into the game.

My biggest problem is ejecting a full cylinder of full house .357 mag and I may go to .38 specials if it stays a problem. Good clean brass and a brushed out cylinder helps. I really insist on competing and practicing with a load and frame I will be carrying daily, I even considered competing with a 19 snubby but the SSR was so pretty.....

My reason for establishing this muzzle down reload as a habit is the thought that I intend to join this club and shoot alot, and probably compete with some semi autos eventually. The muzzle down reload is strictly enforced on the clip feeders at our range. Better to start learning the muscle memory with tools I can use later, right?

What the heck, anyone tried it? Anyone got any pointers? Video referrals?

I have recorded 1 sub 5 second reload time this way but most are in the 6 to 7 category with extra seconds coming on when I don't get a full 6 ejection with one slap or if I juggle the speedloader. I know I am getting faster, but I am pretty sure if I practiced the normal muzzle high ejection this much I would be shaving seconds pretty easy. It isn't really about speed for me yet, I am trying to master trigger control and aiming for consistency on the targets and in my reloads at this early stage.

thanks all
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:03 PM
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I have always been taught, and have taught, muzzle up when unloading a revolver for a speed or self defense situation. Makes for more positive ejection.

Also, you should really be using your left thumb to empty the gun while cradling it through the cylinder opening, and using your right hand to already be reaching for your speedloader. It's quicker. Never been on a range where you couldn't point a revolver muzzle up while ejecting brass. The cylinder should already be open (and the gun safe) before the guns muzzle points up to eject.

Larry

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Old 06-30-2017, 11:08 PM
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Another reason for muzzle up un-loading is so that unburned powder particles don't get behind the ejector. That can cause the cylinder to jam in the frame and ruin your whole day if it's a defense situation.
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:45 PM
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Go with the muzzle-up ejection.

With practice you'll be done reloading faster than some auto
guys change out magazines...
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:10 AM
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Muzzle up - prevents un-burned powder from getting behind the extractor and is less likely to get a casing under the star.

You may have to explain these things to the people who are trying to drag you into muzzle down practice. Muzzle up came from years of LE training and practice and it is safe.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:59 AM
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thanks everyone. Lots of long accepted facts that I (and probably most here) am well aware of.

After YEARS of muzzle up ejection I can already perform them pretty well. Like I said, these are my first competitions and I have never timed either style before, but I am sure a muzzle up ejection is faster and better practice for lots of reasons, many stated here already.

I am trying to get in with good standing among the SO's and directors of the IDPA club I am joining. I am already a pain in their A's because I am the only regular revolver shooter. I know the muzzle high reloads bring a bit of a furrow to their brows even though they are behind me and I can't see it. Our range is being surrounded by new houses and new roads and "below the berm" is THE rule of the day, although the PIA revolver guys are allowed to go high.

I am not sure but I think I am already reloading as fast as some of the pistol guys, even using my muzzle down style last month I ranked about low middle of the pack of sixty shooters.

Please don't try to stop me, I will stop myself if this isn't going to work, beleive me.

Anyone tried this or have a referance to another person that has or does?
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:21 AM
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A good revo reload with moon clips is around 2 seconds. With speed loaders around 3 - 4 seconds. This is with muzzle up. A 6 or more second time is considered pretty slow in competition.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:51 AM
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Is it just me or does anyone else agree that a moon clip with ACP brass would probably still be faster underwater in the dark?

As consumers, can we all tell S&W that a revolver needs to have an ejector that pushes farther than any case that can fit the cylinder? Trying for fast reloads with a snubby and .357 length case is an exercise I hope I dont ever have to use under the stress of fear for my life.

top break shotguns have the ejection process well in hand. Webly?
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:03 AM
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So that I am clear on this...you are talking about muzzle up when clearing empties aren't you? If so, this is most common practice I know of.
So few of us shoot revolvers in IDPA/USPSA that they percieve anything slightly different from what is used on a bottom feeder that it short circuits their brain.

Yes, I shoot revolvers in both of those games and have had to deal with this more than once.
I used to be an RO in both and there is NOTHING unsafe in doing this.
Randy
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:09 PM
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Revolvers are gravity operated. Muzzle up to empty, muzzle down to load. A semi-auto has a recoil spring to ram a shell in the chamber, one at a time. We are loading several at a time without a strong spring to push them in.

I once had a USPSA RO screaming at me, every reload "WATCH YOUR MUZZLE!!! WATCH YOUR MUZZLE!!! Some of them have no concept of how a revo works, and so they get messed up when they see one used. You will not be effective unloading down or horizontal with a revolver.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:03 PM
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This is one of the primary reasons why I kept clear of IDPA, USCSA, IPSC, etc. It seemed that around here, their legions were loaded with guys that just couldn't accept that their knowledge had any gaps in it. Their way or the hiway.

I would gather some documentation as to why muzzle-up revolver shooting is both allowed and perfectly safe, and then schedule a meeting with whoever the event organizer is.

If that doesn't get you anywhere--why do you want to spend your leisure time shooting with these guys?

If all it causes truly is furrowed brows, and no interference on the line for you--well, you're an adult. Why do you care what idiots think of you?
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:12 PM
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You can unload muzzle up if you want, but sooner or later you will end up with the ejector slamming shut with a case UNDER the ejector star.

The revolver reload was worked out decades ago, and it is NOT improved by trying to do what people used to do before it all got sorted out.

Muzzle UP to unload; muzzle DOWN to load.

If the "range officer" cannot understand this, then you are at the wrong range. Or, perhaps he has the wrong job.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:55 PM
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original poster here, back after a day of competition.

I had a good day all in all, no stuck cases, but one reload only got 5 in the cylinder somehow. it happens.

These SO's and RO's are aware of what I am doing and are in no way making me do it. I am new here, it is all new to me, and I want to learn as I go. This marks me as a team player early on, and I could care less about the times at this point. When I do start to care about my times and getting higher classifications, it will be with the SO's and RO's knowledge that I was thinking about the club and range safety from the very first. I can go to a muzzle high ejection when I want to, or need to to get a better time, no problem. In fact, the only criticism I heard from any of them was when I asked for an opinion and they showed concern that I could possibly be sweeping my flattened left hand as I slap the ejector back if the cylinder hasn't opened. If it doesn't open, I could be DQ'd for the day, but I am not moving that mechanically or so quickly that I would sweep my left hand if my right hand doesn't feel the cylinder drop.

I think it is a much more forceful eject than I could get with just a thumb or finger in a high muzzle eject, but it has to be because I don't have gravity there to help if a case tries to stick on a grip or slip under the star.

For now, I will stick with it.

In a real life and death situation, if I have to reload, it will probably be muzzle high just because the ratio of reloads of that style that I have done to the muzzle down style is like about 10000 to 1. With dozens of different guns.

Every move I make in these competitions is still a very careful and controlled move and probably will be for a long time. Why not teach myself something new? I am probably going to be the winner in a class of one for awhile anyway!

Real life? as always- go for what you know. Thats why I have a revolver in the first place guys.
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Old 07-02-2017, 05:34 PM
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2lmaker- is your range TriCounty in Sherwood? I've shot there before & understand their sensitivity.

I too shoot wheelguns in IDPA in Wa- having a hoot doing so, especially when I score better then some bottom feeders
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:50 PM
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thats right. It used to be out in the void but the city is getting closer and a new road is coming pretty close, I really have to wonder how long it can stay there. I guess as long as there aren't any problems. The effort they have made there to keep the possibility of a stray to a minimum is impressive.

I drive in from a very rural area south of there and shoot with people that probably don't have any place else to shoot besides the BLM land outside of portland.

They need all the help and cooperation they can get.
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:27 PM
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"In a real life and death situation, if I have to reload, it will probably be muzzle high just because the ratio of reloads of that style that I have done to the muzzle down style is like about 10000 to 1. With dozens of different guns."


'How you train is how you'll fight (function under pressure)'.

Google the Newhall incident and read about how CHP required officers to pocket their expended brass, "we don't want to waste time policing up your brass", and how it panned out, under pressure.
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:18 AM
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that is a good point. I am starting to falter just a bit in my steadfast desire to learn something new here.

If I get to a point where the muzzle down eject doesn't feel forced I will have to decide what muscle memory I want to have with me after that.

In a stressful situation most people can't even process and repeat information, learned that as a firefighter. Changing the trucks compliment from winter house fire and MVA set up to summer general equipment plus field and wildland fire gear caused ALL of us to do the "chinese fire drill" where we ran from compartment to compartment looking for the pieces we had stowed ourselves just days before.

I am pretty sure my "reload eject" mental compartment is currently stocked with high muzzle instructions, but it is something I have added a bit of confusion to, isn't it?

Good point, Steve912.
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:50 AM
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Default my off the cuf commets --Long sorry

First off I was a long time (decades) RO at my large club. We held both state wide pistol and shotgun competitions there. I was also a NRA firearms instructor and one of the many courses we had was teaching PPC and we also taught a form of personal defense. This was in the revolver era and only a few oddballs (me include) sometimes carried a Semi.

Now of course the Semi is king. To be blunt here most of the ROs I have met lately know next to nothing about a revolver (nor are they interested in learning). A couple have told me no revolvers allowed on range would be a good thing. They would rather be boiled in oil than tell someone the revolver is a viable defense gun.

I learned to do a muzzle up to eject rounds , and a muzzle down to recharge. I used speed loaders for the most part! It is PERFECTLY safe, but most of the new breed ROs fail to understand how these guns work. I have been told on a few occasions not to do it that way. I tend to stand my ground, and ask them very nicely to please explain to me what I'm doing that is so wrong or where in the clubs safety rules I'm committing a sin. Talk about a deer in the headlight look!

I try to be as friendly as I can and I do respect the ROs authority (to a point) but if pushed will stand my ground. I do tend to get their attention when i tell some of them I was teaching defensive shooting, gun safety, carrying a concealed weapon before they ever were a twinkle in their fathers eyes.

I realize that a lot has changed over the years, some good some bad. I do tend to get a chuckle most times when I tell them even if you see me doing something you consider stupid, my stupidity will still be stupidly safe.
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Old 07-03-2017, 01:00 PM
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hey all, OP here.

These are not stupid people, I have nothing but respect for these RO's and SO's and the way they work with me and the other newbs.

The bottom line is that a high muzzle eject is OK and I can't imagine any of them getting even close to heated if I decide to do it that way.

Fact is, my first competition was done that way and the only thing said was that I can't get used to being muzzle high, that it is an exception made for revolver ejections and not a normal position for any gun, loaded or not, at this range, PERIOD.

I work with lathes and mills everyday, have for years. There are certain things that we all do everyday and get used to doing on the machines that we just plain have to do correctly or people get hurt.
The big chuck keys on the large lathes weigh about 4 to 5 pounds and if left in the chuck on a machine that gets turned on, well, there just isn't a safe place to be when that happens and standing in front of the lathe is a death sentence. The rule is, no one takes their hand off the chuck key while using it, ever. Leaving it in the chuck and walking away...well I guess you had better just keep walking because about ten of us would really like to put it someplace safe that you might find uncomfortable.

I have gotten to the point where I will even chew on someone for leaving the wrench in a chuck that isn't even mounted on a lathe, just because anything that leads to people being at all used to seeing it sitting that way is a step closer to a dangerous situation for us all.

To my way of thinking, my high muzzle reloads are going to happen in front of a bunch of shooters that absolutely cannot be lead one step closer to being used to seeing it and getting used to it. I will take one for the team if all it costs me is an extra second or two. Or more.

No way will I program myself to think it is the best reload style.

Not sure if I would let myself take a lower classification someday down the line because I am taking a few seconds longer to reload.
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Old 07-04-2017, 01:32 AM
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You gave an excellent description of how you want to do your reload. Keeping the muzzle horizontal, or slightly up is the fastest way to do it. I've had under 2 second reloads using moon clips and using Safariland Comp IIIs. You just need to practice.

I'm a Master Class shooter in ICORE and USPSA with my revolver. It takes lots of dedication and practice to be consistent.

Jerry Miculeck does the straight up ejection of cases and there is nobody in the world as fast as Jerry.
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Old 07-05-2017, 07:35 PM
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OP, you didn't say whether a revolver is your EDC. If it currently is, you may want to switch to an auto so the reload is completely different. I shoot revolvers for target every time I go to the range, and prefer them to autos, but a Shield 9, my EDC, is easier to conceal than a Model 14. I was a cop when we carried revolvers.
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Old 07-05-2017, 08:46 PM
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Not going to answer that, lets not derail the thread entirely.

Dsoes anyone know of any videos or referances to a muzzle down ejection technique? I would appreciate anything that will help me to make the environment at the range safer for everyone. Thanks
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:30 AM
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Okay, now I have to disagree.

Reloading a revolver is entirely different from reloading a semiautomatic. Reloading a revolver muzzle-up is not a slippery slope to foolishness with a semiautomatic. There are mechanical reasons why you wouldn't want a semiautomatic's barrel muzzle-up during a reload, just the same as there are mechanical reasons why doing so with a revolver is perfectly safe.

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Originally Posted by AzShooter
Jerry Miculeck does the straight up ejection of cases and there is nobody in the world as fast as Jerry.
Az, no offense, but I tend to reject any argument based on what a professional or national-level shooter does. By the time a person reaches that level in their shooting career, they really have very little in common with an amateur. The amount of practice, and refinement in equipment, that they've achieved gives them access to techniques that the amateur can't benefit from.

Case in point, watch how Miculek feeds a moonclip into his 9mm revolver. He doesn't seat it in--he throws it. And he moves to close the cylinder before the moonclip has fallen all the way in.

Someone who doesn't practice as much as Miculek can't reliably execute that technique. They'd be much better off seating the moonclip fully. Not as fast, but the time they lose is more than made up for in reliability.

The "pros" do things differently than the rest of us, for a reason. Slavishly copying exactly what they do is not a recipe for success.
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Old 07-06-2017, 07:15 AM
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Aloha

I ran a M57, 41 mag with heavy target loads in IPSC

Emptied muzzle up and reloaded muzzle down.

Never had a problem as there were several revolver shooters in the club.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:52 PM
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I think this is a very strange thread. Of course if the revolver shooter wants to do his reload a certain way then I'm not going to stop them but I wouldn't do it muzzle down. The whole argument is silly because the cylinder is open and the finger out of the trigger guard before the muzzle is pointed "over the top of the berm".

IDPA rules do not allow a shooter using a 686 to use anything shorter than regular 38 Special brass. This is what I use, 38 spl brass and speed loaders with handloads that are quite light. For stock revolver the power factor is 105. I will tell you that if it were allowable I would trim my 38 special brass to make it easier to unload the empties. So why the OP is using 357 brass is a big mystery to me but not my problem. Is the EDC a 686 with a 4" barrel and speedloaders on the belt?

The match has to accommodate you in two ways, the first is to allow muzzle up reloads and second is they have to calibrate falling steel to activate at 105 pf. Just make sure your not breaking the 180 rule which applies to both vertical and horizontal with respect to the backstop. The muzzle still has to be pointed in the general direction of down range no more than 179 degrees from an imaginary line straight up into the sky.

Now, true confession time. I'm fairly new to revolvers, this is my 3rd year. Prior to that I had about 2 years of semi experience. While I personally suck, I'm surrounded by some very accomplished revolver shooters. When I was trying to decide on how to actually hold the gun during reloads I abandoned what the books say and listened to people that were right next to me while I was shooting. What that means I put 2 of my speed loaders on the left side in the same position my mag holders were. I do put an extra on the right side but hardly ever have to use it. This means that I'm holding the gun in my right hand, grabbing the speed loader with my left. But this is just me. I have tried both ways and of all things my reloads are hands down my best attribute. I disagree that trying to emulate the pros is a bad thing.

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Old 07-23-2017, 10:35 PM
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Default Come shoot in Dundee

I was wondering how revolver shooters were going to manage reloads at Tri-county with the berm rule. My suggestion would be to come to CVSC in Dundee for the monthly USPSA. Not a ton of wheelgun shooters but enough that the ROs are revolver friendly. Better yet, make the monthly drive down to Albany for the ICORE match!

As to technique, I prefer the FBI method of holding the opened gun in my left hand and ejecting with my thumb while my right hand reaches my belt for the speed loader. I then turn the gun downward so gravity can help get the rounds in. Lots of practice so I don't sweep myself on the up or down and your left thumb has to mean business to get all the spent cases clear.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:53 PM
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I was wondering how revolver shooters were going to manage reloads at Tri-county with the berm rule. My suggestion would be to come to CVSC in Dundee for the monthly USPSA. Not a ton of wheelgun shooters but enough that the ROs are revolver friendly. Better yet, make the monthly drive down to Albany for the ICORE match!

.............
So I guess that this club has a rule that states that the muzzle of an unloaded gun can not be positioned at in an angle that if the gun were loaded would allow a bullet to go over the berm?

To the OP, if ICORE is even a remote option then I believe you will find it worthwhile. My club has ICORE, IDPA, USPSA and Steel Challenge so it's easy for me at least to compare. We host both monthly matches in each and with the exception of IDPA hold state, regional, sectional championships. Not to disparage any other organization but for revolver shooters there is no place like home and home is ICORE.

The big problem with USPSA revolver is you really need an 8 shot revolver and moon clips and iron sights or you will get trampled. An 8 shot revo with a dot sight puts you in open class where you will also get trampled. ICORE has an open class for those with comps and dot sights, however you will be competing with other revolvers not open semi-autos. ICORE has a limited, a limited 6 and classic division. So for example I shoot my 929 with optics in open, my 686 (which I had cut for moons) in both limited 6 and classic (using speed loaders). ICORE if available is really the best place for revolver shooters especially at the start because revolver shooters are somewhat of a family.

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Old 07-25-2017, 11:15 AM
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So I guess that this club has a rule that states that the muzzle of an unloaded gun can not be positioned at in an angle that if the gun were loaded would allow a bullet to go over the berm?

To the OP, if ICORE is even a remote option then I believe you will find it worthwhile. My club has ICORE, IDPA, USPSA and Steel Challenge so it's easy for me at least to compare. We host both monthly matches in each and with the exception of IDPA hold state, regional, sectional championships. Not to disparage any other organization but for revolver shooters there is no place like home and home is ICORE.

The big problem with USPSA revolver is you really need an 8 shot revolver and moon clips and iron sights or you will get trampled. An 8 shot revo with a dot sight puts you in open class where you will also get trampled. ICORE has an open class for those with comps and dot sights, however you will be competing with other revolvers not open semi-autos. ICORE has a limited, a limited 6 and classic division. So for example I shoot my 929 with optics in open, my 686 (which I had cut for moons) in both limited 6 and classic (using speed loaders). ICORE if available is really the best place for revolver shooters especially at the start because revolver shooters are somewhat of a family.
Let me jump in since I'm local. Yes, they have a rule at his home range that no muzzles are to be pointed above the berm AT ANY TIME, loaded or no. When the range was built, it was out in the country, but development has created a situation where there are now residences outside the property. Due to an "incident" with a neighbor, their insurance company now requires the above rule. It is a DQ offence at any competition. My understanding is that this has created havoc with their competition certifications. (not a member, this is just the local scuttlebutt)

His other choices in competition locally are USPSA at a range about half an hour from Tri-county or ICORE which is an hour and a half away. I agree with your assessment that USPSA would be frustrating with a six-shooter. That's why I'm still shooting my XDm in that sport. If I decide to shoot revolver there, I agree that an 8-shot 9mm with moon clips would be the only way to go.

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Old 07-26-2017, 02:15 PM
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Now, true confession time. I'm fairly new to revolvers, this is my 3rd year. Prior to that I had about 2 years of semi experience. While I personally suck, I'm surrounded by some very accomplished revolver shooters. When I was trying to decide on how to actually hold the gun during reloads I abandoned what the books say and listened to people that were right next to me while I was shooting. What that means I put 2 of my speed loaders on the left side in the same position my mag holders were. I do put an extra on the right side but hardly ever have to use it. This means that I'm holding the gun in my right hand, grabbing the speed loader with my left. But this is just me. I have tried both ways and of all things my reloads are hands down my best attribute. I disagree that trying to emulate the pros is a bad thing.
Just wondering why, unless you are left handed, you reload with the gun in your right hand. I was taught to reload the following way:

Right thumb (I'm right handed) pushes cylinder release. Left hand moves from the grip so that the barrel rests between thumb and forefinger. Other three left hand fingers push open the cylinder and grip it. While right hand reaches for speed loader left thumb hits the ejector rod. Right hand reloads and drops speedloader, as it goes back on the butt left thumb closes cylinder and left hand goes back to butt.

I know the theory that if the strong hand holds the gun it is steadier and reloading quicker because the shooting hand is not removed from the butt, but I find that the fine motor skills needed to feed the ammo in the speedloader into the cylinder are bestter performed with the master hand, the gun is held steadier for the reload at the guns balance point around the cylinder instead of on the butt and it takes longer for the same hand to eject the spent cases before going for the speedloader. (And for these same reasons when shooting weak handed only I reverse the procedure, using my trigger finger to hit the cylinder release. These reloads are slower due to using non-master hand to manipulate the speedloader).
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:45 PM
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OP here,
@Kiwi cop

I am holding the gun in my left and the reloader in the right. The only difference I see is that I am slapping the ejector with my left palm as I make the exchange and that my ejects have to be more forceful. Oh, and the cylinder swing is done with the fingers of the right hand making the hold on the frame a bit precarious for a forceful eject but I am doing fine with it.

My times are getting better, one split time was 4.2 last week. I am getting all 6 out on the first slap probably 90-95% of the time. I tell the SO that if I get any cases that don't fall clear I will be going vertical to clear them. I haven't had to in the last 2 competitions.

Just as an aside- I qualified as IDPA sharpshooter last week, first time I had fired that course. If I had put bullets in the 0 or down 1 consistently I would have made marksman, I was pretty close. the limited number of reloads on that course wouldn't have made that much difference even if Jerry M. hisself was doing them for me. The difference between the fastest reloader on earth and my times wouldn't have made up for my left hand shooting or the number of down 3's I dropped.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:12 PM
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OP here,
@Kiwi cop

I am holding the gun in my left and the reloader in the right. The only difference I see is that I am slapping the ejector with my left palm as I make the exchange and that my ejects have to be more forceful. Oh, and the cylinder swing is done with the fingers of the right hand making the hold on the frame a bit precarious for a forceful eject but I am doing fine with it.

My times are getting better, one split time was 4.2 last week. I am getting all 6 out on the first slap probably 90-95% of the time. I tell the SO that if I get any cases that don't fall clear I will be going vertical to clear them. I haven't had to in the last 2 competitions.

Just as an aside- I qualified as IDPA sharpshooter last week, first time I had fired that course. If I had put bullets in the 0 or down 1 consistently I would have made marksman, I was pretty close. the limited number of reloads on that course wouldn't have made that much difference even if Jerry M. hisself was doing them for me. The difference between the fastest reloader on earth and my times wouldn't have made up for my left hand shooting or the number of down 3's I dropped.
What you are doing is obviously working for you and those whose technique you have copied. If it ain't broke then don't fix it.

The only query I would have is that you said earlier you wear your speedloaders on the left and draw them with your left hand.

Unlike with a semi-auto you really need to change a revolver from the dominant to the weak hand to reload, so, like those ISPC shooters I see on a weak hand stage who change the gun across to the strong hand to reload, my query is about drawing the speedloader with the left hand. If I am reading you correctly this would result in a juggling act, revolver moves from right hand to left and speedloader from left hand to right?

To me it makes more sense to carry and draw the speedloaders with my strong hand.

Below is the Stressfire video which probably explins why better than I can.


BTW: The issues about heat burns and cases fire forming in the chambers, while relevant to firing Magnum loads, are not of concern to me as we do not have defensive carry only targe shooting use. I only load target .38 Special's loaded to a 128 pf (148 gn HBWC@865fps) so I use the old FBI thumb method on the ejector rod while reaching for my speedloaders.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:21 PM
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A few thoughts about some the topics mentioned above:

1) I agree with the OP about habits, but to be honest there isn't anything in common between a semi-auto reload and a revolver reload. However, you do fight like you train and if you carry a revolver for self defense your concern for commonality with a semi-auto and/or keeping the muzzle below the berm may well get you serious trouble if you ever have to do a tactical reload in the real world with an actual self defense round.

2) The "full length" ejector rod used by S&W is found on 3" and longer revolvers - but it is only "full length" relative to the .38 Special, and then it is just long enough to move the mouth of the case to the rear edge of the chamber with no extra margin. If you are shooting .357 Magnum, that full length ejector will leave an 1/8th of an inch of the case still in the chamber. If you are shooting .357 Magnum in a 2.5" revolver, you'll be leaving at least 1/4" of the cases in the chambers.

In addition, higher pressure loads tend to stick in the chamber and with 6 empties expanded to the point they won't drop free, you need a pretty fair whack on the ejector rod to get them knocked out of the cylinder, and a really good whack on a shorter ejector rod to get them all out cleanly.

3) If you plan on using an upward or horizontal ejection you'll find it works a lot better with really short case like the 9mm or .45 ACP and you'll find it works a lot better with a 9mm Luger than it does the .45 ACP.

That's because the 9mm case is shorter, has far less surface area, and is a tapered case, so as soon as it starts to move to the rear, it is out of contact with the cylinder. Nothing against Jerry Miculek, but he's using a stacked deck when he trick shoots - and that isn't the same deck you'll have with a .38 or .357 revolver for self defense purposes.

4) I still like practical pistol competition, as there is value in thinking, moving, shooting and reloading under time pressure. However, I don't focus on winning as the things you need to have or do to win are often contrary to what you need to have and do to survive in a real world shoot.

For example IDPA's tactical priority rule leaves a lot to be desired and their refusal to allow a shooter to initiate a reload that will leave unfired rounds on the ground forces a shooter to by pass naturally occurring points where a reload would be prudent. For example, if you've just cleared a room and know you only have a couple rounds in the magazine, you normally would not enter another room knowing you might not have sufficient rounds to deal with a threat in the next room - you're going to do a reload before you enter. I'd hate to train myself to wait until I'm at slide lock to initiate a reload. I will however give IDPA credit for not allowing "memory stages".

5) If you are shooting in the stock revolver division with a .38 Special, the FBI reload method works fine - and it's very fast.

The stock revolver power factor is only 105, and that can be met with a .38 Special with a 158 gr bullet at just 670 fps - a light target load by most standards and those cases will fall right out on their own, so the FBI reload works great.

In the enhanced revolver division the power factor is 155 and you need a 158 gr bullet at 985 fps to meet it - but that's still just a .38 + P load and a light .357 Magnum load, even in a 2.5" revolver. Consequently, the cases are also likely to drop free on their own and the FBI reload still works fine.

In the real world however with a true .357 Mag self defense load, and particularly in a 2.5" revolver, you'll find the FBI reload won't result in positive ejection.

-----

There are three more to less standards of reloading a revolver and I'll present them in the order they were developed:

The FBI reload.

In this method you use the thumb of the right hand to press the cylinder latch. At the same time you're wrapping your left hand around the bottom of the revolver, and then pressing the cylinder and crane open with your middle and ring fingers.

When you turn the revolver muzzle up, the revolver's forcing cone is resting on the side of your middle finger near the joint closest to your hand. Your index finger is around the barrel and the ring finger is near the back of the top strap over the hammer. Your thumb is in front of the cylinder and you then use the thumb to fully depress the ejector rod to push/knock the rounds free.

You then shift your thumb to the front face of the cylinder outside the crane and rotate the revolver muzzle down for the reload. Unless you are using a moon clip, that's essential as speed loaders are usually gravity operated once the rims of the rounds are released.

As soon as your right hand has released the cylinder latch, and the revolver is in the left hand, your right hand is going for the speed loaders on the right front of your belt, and by the time the rounds are ejected, you should be ready to press the new rounds into the the cylinder of the now muzzle down revolver. Once the rounds are in you close the cylinder with the left hand (like a book - you don't "slap" it shut - that's how cranes get bent), while your right hand re-grips the revolver.

The major advantage of this method is speed.

The major disadvantages are:
- this method was developed in the 1930's when the .38 Special was king, and your thumb may not provide enough force to eject a sticky high pressure cartridge;
- for IDPA revolver shooting where you may be carrying 3 reloads for a 6 or 7 shot revolver, that can mean 18-21 rounds have been fired before that last reload - and that forcing cone resting against the side of your finger can be quite hot if you're shooting .357 Magnum loads (hot enough that officers have been known to drop the revolver when they burned their finger). It's not as big a deal with the .38 Special; and
- having your middle and index fingers through the cylinder cut means your wrist is already very close to a wrist lock position and it requires you to bend forward to get the muzzle down to allow gravity to drop the new rounds in the cylinder. This takes your eyes off the fight and you lose contact with the target and lose situational awareness at a really bad time.

The Universal reload:

This was developed to address one of the major short comings of the FBI method related to the use of .357 Magnum ammunition. It starts the same, except you place your thumb on the front face of the cylinder or on the outside of the cylinder and then use your right hand to come across and slap the ejector rod down. If you're shooting a short ejector rod revolver you want your thumb to the outside to allow full movement of the shorter ejector rod.

The major benefit of this method is that it provides a lot more force and velocity to eject the cartridge cases, enough to cleanly eject even full power .357s in a revolver with a short ejector rod. Once loaded, you grip it with the right hand and again use your left hand to close the cylinder like a book.

The major downsides are:
- the right hand doesn't start going for the speed loader until the rounds have been ejected, so it is slower than the FBI reload,
- you still have the issue with a hot forcing cone against the side of your finger;
- you are still in wrist lock position and have to bend a bit to get the muzzle down; and
- coming across with the right hand to slap the ejector rod can result in an off axis hit that can bend the ejector rod - it's a major cause of bent ejector rods, especially in revolvers with full length ejector rods.

The Stress Fire reload.

This is a different approach that addresses the downsides of the FBI and Universal reloads.

In this method you use the thumb of the right hand to release the cylinder, and you push the cylinder out with the fingers of your left hand, but then you pivot the revolver up in your right hand so the hammer sits back in the web of your hand. You then use your right thumb to hold the cylinder open, and with the pistol now muzzle up you use your left hand to slap the ejector rod and eject the rounds. You bring your left hand down so that the index finger is on one side the barrel and the thumb is on the other side of the barrel. This helps prevent an excessive off axis strike on the ejector rod.

You then rest the revolver muzzle down in the palm of your left hand with the ejector rod between your thumb and index finger, while your right hand gets a speed loader and drops the rounds in the gun. Once loaded, you grip it with the right hand and again use your left hand to close the cylinder like a book.

The major benefits are:
- the forcing cone never touches the side of your finger;
- it provides enough force to eject full power .357 magnum cases even in a 2.5" revolver;
- the ejector rod does not get bent; and
- you are never wrist locked and can keep your head up and your eyes in the fight.

The downside is that, like the Universal reload, it is slower than the FBI reload.

---

It's your choice what you use, but if you carry a revolver for self defense, you're better served by a method that will positively eject your cases from your revolver - every time.
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:43 PM
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OP here again
@Kiwicop
I am carrying two speedloaders in pouches forward of the holster, right side as per IDPA rules. I am not sure where the idea that I am reaching for reloads with my left hand came from, my process is pretty similar to the FBI method except I am muzzle down and slapping with my left palm on the ejector rod as I trade the gun to the left hand and start reaching for the reloader.

Lots of info from BB57- thank you very much

there is a strong possibility that I will be buying some .38 special case soon and possibly some round nose 158 grainers just to speed up the reloads. I really want to compete with similar loads to what I will be carrying (full house .357 mag XTP's) but if the difference between a stout +P and my carry loads isn't TOO much I will go with the shorter cases and the smoother reloading bullets and see how that works.
thanks again everyone.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:52 PM
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Muzzle up ejection is the accepted way of doing it since 1899.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:14 AM
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Just wondering why, unless you are left handed, you reload with the gun in your right hand. I was taught to reload the following way:

Right thumb (I'm right handed) pushes cylinder release. Left hand moves from the grip so that the barrel rests between thumb and forefinger. Other three left hand fingers push open the cylinder and grip it. While right hand reaches for speed loader left thumb hits the ejector rod. Right hand reloads and drops speedloader, as it goes back on the butt left thumb closes cylinder and left hand goes back to butt.

I know the theory that if the strong hand holds the gun it is steadier and reloading quicker because the shooting hand is not removed from the butt, but I find that the fine motor skills needed to feed the ammo in the speedloader into the cylinder are bestter performed with the master hand, the gun is held steadier for the reload at the guns balance point around the cylinder instead of on the butt and it takes longer for the same hand to eject the spent cases before going for the speedloader. (And for these same reasons when shooting weak handed only I reverse the procedure, using my trigger finger to hit the cylinder release. These reloads are slower due to using non-master hand to manipulate the speedloader).
What you've described is the "FBI reload". It's as fast as it gets as it is efficient and uses the dominant hand to best effect.

However it was developed in the 1930s and was intended for use with revolvers with full length ejector rods (3" or longer) and .38 Special ammunition. With high pressure .357 Magnum ammunition, the thumb may not be able to eject the spent cases, particularly, with a revolver shorter than 3", where the ejector rod is not full length.

That's why the "universal reload" came into being. It's the same re-load, except you use the palm of the strong hand to smack the ejector rod, before going for a speed loader. It's thus a fraction of a second slower, but way more effective at ejecting stubborn cases.

The stress fire reload was developed primarily due to the problem of the much more heat intensive .357 Magnum heating up the forcing cone. A half dozen rapidly fired rounds of .357 Magnum can heat the forcing cone enough to burn the side of the middle finger after you've pressed the cylinder out - and officers have been known to drop revolvers in that situation. The Stress Fire reload also results in a cleaner, more vertical strike on the ejector rod, which prevents bent ejector rods. It's as fast as the Universal reload.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:28 AM
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I reload muzzle down. The main reason is that I shoot far more semi-auto than I do revolver, so I find myself instinctively reaching my left hand to my left side to pull my reload. It's hard to overcome muscle memory that comes from 10-15 thousand rounds per year (and the associated reloads). A muzzle-down reload where my left (support) hand deals with the speedloader is far more instinctive (and therefore faster for me) than the "proper" muzzle-up reload.
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Old 10-21-2017, 12:34 PM
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Another reason for muzzle up un-loading is so that unburned powder particles don't get behind the ejector. That can cause the cylinder to jam in the frame and ruin your whole day if it's a defense situation.
And all it takes is one flake of Unique (or similar) powder.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:22 AM
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Not going to answer that, lets not derail the thread entirely.

Dsoes anyone know of any videos or referances to a muzzle down ejection technique? I would appreciate anything that will help me to make the environment at the range safer for everyone. Thanks
This isn't quite level.

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Old 12-06-2017, 10:29 AM
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I've been watching / reading this thread for some time. FWIW I'll throw in my two cents.

Sounds to me like it's an unsafe range and / or set up and I would find a New Range.!! I've been shooting some form or other of pistol competition since the 70's. I've been shooting USPSA since the late 80's. I am a USPSA range officer and a NRA instructor / safety range officer.

Recently I have quit shooting USPSA at two of our local clubs because of what I feel are unsafe set-ups.. They start off harping & harping about breaking 180 degrees. Then set the course of fire where the targets are set at 179 degrees.
Last year there was even one shooter injured because of this piss-poor unsafe set-up.

I've been shooting long enough that I can shoot these courses without breaking 180. But ,, I don't want to get shot.. Or see someone I know and like get shot.. So, I refuse to go to these matches.

And Yes I have talked nicely to the RO and course designers and was ignored .. They acted like I was just old & stupid and didn't know anything or what I was talking about.. ( the fact is I've been setting courses and shooting USPSA before either one of them could spell USPSA)
BTW the day I had a serious conversation with them about it , was the day the shooter was injured..

SO, my advise is find a new range that is safe and they know what they are doing.. Just My TWO Cents .
Sorry for the long winded rant..

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Old 12-07-2017, 07:49 PM
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Besides jumping on the change range band wagon, a couple thoughts. I started out with revolvers ages ago, went semi due to job demands and in retirement, have rediscovered revolvers.

First off, while competition is fun and you do get to perform under pressure, it isn't training. It does, however, create and reinforce habits. Some of which can be long term bad. You need to avoid this.

Back when revolvers ruled, the muzzle up unload was standard. [A refinement I don't see mentioned is to also point the spent brass away from your feet. This is much less an issue since the development of speed loaders, but the idea was to keep the empties away from any ammo you dropped during loading loose rounds from dump pouches. It doesn't hurt anyway.] As noted, a forceful motion of the ejector rod is necessary to clear magnum brass, it does help to have gravity working for you in this case, also helps keep any unburned powder away from the ejector star. Yes, it can be done with the thumb. The Stressfire system is necessary with any snubbies to yank the brass out of the chambers. I used to really hate snubby qualification.

You don't adapt necessary actions to comply with inane range rules. You change ranges. Possibly look for new types of competition.

Just watched the video a couple posts above. While the guy has skills, I wouldn't want to defend my butt with those loads or that firearm given the mods necessary to do that.

OP, you note in your later posts about those pesky 1s and 3s in your score. Based upon both competition and LE Instructor experience (and those handy electronic shot timers), the difference between 0 and 1 & 3 is about 0.1 second on your trigger stroke. Dryfire will help groove in the trigger stroke, practice will teach you when you need a fine or coarse sight picture. One 3 eliminates the difference between-what you term a slow reload- and your attempts to match a magazine fed reload. If you're practicing for the street, worry about shot placement in a timely manner. There's now a statistically significant database of non LE shooting that suggest that reloads aren't a factor. Two timely solid hits in the thorax seem to solve the problem.

If you get caught up in the trophy chase, I'd suggest you find a revolver chambered in .38 Spl and turn it into as near to a race gun as the rules permit. [ If you want at least some street relevance keep the trigger about the same as your protection piece.] Using .38 cases in a .357 chamber will, over time, leave a ring of lead at the .38 case mouth. This can cause extraction problems if you later shoot .357 Magnum in the gun. Removing these was so much fun decades ago, I've never again fired .38 in any .357. I just loaded for .38 velocities in .357 cases.

Good luck.

Last edited by WR Moore; 12-08-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:10 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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I guess you're never too old to learn. The Stressfire ejection method is faster than the thumb of the support hand. Always knew it'd be more positive, the speed surprised me.
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Old 12-23-2017, 01:07 PM
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OP here

I am not a member of the tri county club so changing ranges isn't a real issue at all, but it is the closest IDPA meet and I will go.

I am absolutely convinced that more time on the site picture makes up for reload time by far. drop enough down 3's and you could do your reload with a press using the same brass.

IDPA was chosen because it was more "real world with real weapons" than the other disciplines I considered, but as soon as I was required to wear my weapon and my reloads on my belt I was straying from real world, wasn't I? Even further, using lighter loads in a gun I bought specifically for the competition and I have left the real world training for the day I hope never happens behind.

IDPA is a way for me to measure my own progress under stress.

If muzzle up reloading happens at this range with these SO's it is not a problem at all, I was just trying to enter the group with an obvious nod towards compliance to their standards, and I was exaggerating the muzzle down rule FAR beyond where they enforce it.

The only negative thing ever SAID to me about my reloads was that I have to be sure and not sweep my left hand when I am slapping the ejector hard enough to sometimes get the cases to hit my right arm at elbow distance from the gun. I always tell the SO that I will be reloading muzzle down and going to a muzzle up if anything goes wrong, and it seldom does with the shorter cases at lighter loadings I am using now. I have never heard any comment other than the mentioned "don't sweep your left hand".

In a real life situation, my reloads are probably going to happen crouched behind cover and my eyes are going to looking for better cover and my brain is going to be in hyper drive and its a safe bet that I couldn't tell you if a reload happened until I checked my pockets. I get the whole muscle memory thing and training the way you will want to shoot under stress (I was a first responder/firefighter and we drilled the way we would want to do it in the dark with an SCBA on). I am absolutely keeping the muzzle up reload of my EDC with full house .357's in a snub 19 from IWB or shoulder horizontal carry a part of my practice as it has been for years and years.

In short, thanks for the input, there is a lot of experience available here and I appreciate everyones opinions.

Bottom line: Muzzle down can be fast if done by someone that has done it enough times. It might be me someday but I care less and less about it.
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